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11:00
It's a neat trick that is possible with the binding rules of rvalue refs and the lvalueness of those rvalue refs.
Still think it's worth an answer?
fair enough
possibly worth a comment then
FYI, my intent with the question was to find out exactly what that paragraph is forbidding.
David can be a bit condescending
I hate when I'm disagreeing with someone and the response is "The standard is written in a legal language, but don't let that confuse you"
There's no need for it
@TomalakGeretkal Comment added
Heh I'm starting to think about weird weird stuff now
@LucDanton thanks. it's a shame the original lovely argument didn't make it into the comment, you having realised that &make_lval isn't going to work, presumably?
11:07
It works fine
There simply is no sbuverting the rule: we modify an lvalue through a pointer. Can't get a pointer to an rvalue (actually I'm working on that right now)
@LucDanton make_lvalue(expression) is an lvalue. Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to apply the & operator to it.
Oh, wow
I thought I had an idea but it seems there are no holes in the system
How surprising! ;)
It was clever :(
Setup a global pointer in the constructor of a standard layout type
Then memset the pointer for evil
@LucDanton I think posting that example in the comment would be useful, with the caveat that it doesn't apply here by its very nature. But it's an interesting and useful counter-example, I think.
11:13
Can't get the lifetime of a temporary to last long enough for a function invocation without binding it to a reference though
@LucDanton Leaking this from a constructor is never a good idea, is it? Or does that only apply to Java?
Only in multithreaded code :)
Well, it's 2011 already. Multi-core is there, deal with it :)
In C++ the base ctor doesn't call derived methods, like in Java.
@FredOverflow There are the usual lifetime issues.
11:16
@FredOverflow Or use it to implement crazy iteration schemes ;)
@MartinhoFernandes xD
Modifying an lvalue or an rvalue? :)
@MartinhoFernandes I knew that already, but I was challenged on it a while back and couldn't find a reference quickly. Are you able to provide a quick link to some SO question on the topic that I can star?
@MartinhoFernandes What happens when you say some_global_function(this) inside a base constructor and that global function calls a virtual function? I honestly have no idea.
11:17
@LucDanton hah
@LucDanton you must post that :)
@FredOverflow The usual wisdom is that the object is only constructed at the end of the final brace of the constructor (or an exception is thrown and nothing is). I wouldn't be surprised if there are caveats indeed.
@FredOverflow The derived object doesn't exist yet, so it would call the base implementation.
@TomalakGeretkal Right
@LucDanton global is not an rvalue. Yes, you are modifying a temporary object, but you are not doing so through an rvalue.
@FredOverflow But according to the paragraph that is not allowed
11:18
@LucDanton According to what paragraph?
i.e. modifying an rvalue not through a function member
@LucDanton I don't think we've yet explored what other "certain circumstances" there might be.
You are not modifying an rvalue in the example code you posted. You are modifying a temporary object through an lvalue.
I'm reading and rereading that paragraph heh
So
"you need an lvalue to modify an object of class type, except when you don't"?
11:20
@MartinhoFernandes Ah, so in an implementation that uses virtual function pointer tables, the vptr would be assigned different values in the constructor chain? Interesting.
That's what I both love and hate about C++: people can endlessly debate technical details that don't matter at all in the real world :)
@FredOverflow That would be one possibility, yes.
What's funny is that with my example "an lvalue is [still] necessary": I bind the rvalue to the parameter to extend the lifetime
Passing an rvalue to a function does not extend the lifetime of the temporary. It still is going to be destroyed at the end of the full-expression.
Only const T& x = temp() or similar extends the lifetime.
Right?
As does T&& y = temp();
right
11:24
4
A: If temporaries are implicitly non-modifiable, how does this work?

Tomalak Geret'kalFirst, there's a difference between "modifying a temporary" and "modifying an object through an rvalue". I'll consider the latter, since the former is not really useful to discuss [1]. I found the following at 3.10/10: An lvalue for an object is necessary in order to modify the object exce...

@Luc ^
what do you make of is_this_ill_formed((standard_layout{}, 0)) where the function accepts an int? This was my original intent but I was under the impression that the lifetime of standard_layout{} was only the subexpression, not the full-expression.
The lifetime is always at least the full-expression. Otherwise, temporaries would be completely useless.
@LucDanton full-expression
It's the semicolon that cleans up the temps.
@LucDanton This still "works", but again, you are modifying a temporary through an lvalue. I don't think this is what we're after.
11:25
An even better example then (but as pointed out earlier by Fred, I still need an lvalue: global)
@MartinhoFernandes ugh!
@FredOverflow I've successfully made use of the example, though, with the caveat that it's not what the question is about. Which is nice.
@MartinhoFernandes Semicolons don't clean anything up! OCD alert!
Well, there are exceptions to this rule. For example, in if (std::string() == "") { foo; bar; baz; } the temporary will be destroyed at the closing parenthesis after the comparison.
Now, I 'm getting thoroughly confused.
11:27
@MartinhoFernandes Semicolons end statements. That's it!
Ok, got it. OCD threw me off. Was that "Obsessive compulsive disorder" (which confused me) or something else?
@FredOverflow What's the full-expression there? std::string() == "", no?
exactly
@FredOverflow Then it's not an exception to anything
So not every full-expression is terminated by a semicolon. Only expression-statements :)
@TomalakGeretkal It's an exception to the simplified "semicolons clean up temps" 'rule' which works 90% of the time.
11:28
@MartinhoFernandes Aye. When people attribute magical powers to things like semicolons based on empirically observed behaviour (that actually is not attributable to the semicolon itself but to more complex semantics), my OCD twitches
@FredOverflow Ah, you were talking about that one.
What is OCD?
Obsessive compulsive disorder
Obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce uneasiness, apprehension, fear, or worry, by repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing the associated anxiety, or by a combination of such obsessions and compulsions. Symptoms of the disorder include excessive washing or cleaning; repeated checking; extreme hoarding; preoccupation with sexual, violent or religious thoughts; aversion to particular numbers; and nervous rituals, such as opening and closing a door a certain number of times before entering or leaving a room. These sympt...
Oft cited by software developers in a mild form, explaining pedanticism and general pickiness
But you are correct of course, the full-expression rule has no exceptions. Well, except for the extending-lifetime exception when binding to local references :) But that's it.
I almost forgot my tea! runs to kitchen
> Repetitive handwashing is a common OCD symptom
Oh, I have that.
11:31
What about recompiling after every new line of written code? Is that also OCD? :)
For example, I'm incredibly diligent when I program, and I'm known for considering all the cases and really going through the motions to make sure things aren't missed out. That's not to say that I'm perfect: of course, I get this wrong as often as anyone else; but it's the approach. And that is sometimes attributed to a higher rate of mild OCD amongst the technically-inclined than in others.
I do that too.
And typing :w all the time (or Ctrl+S on lower-class editors).
I think that in effect, the paragraph is much more about non-class types than class types. I.e. as my example shows one can always use tricks to modify an object without an lvalue to the object itself, but that's fine.
I'd forgotten until now, but my Ctrl-S finger is bloody itchy
@TomalakGeretkal I do that too. What happens if I pass an empty list, what happens if I pass null, what happens if I pass Integer.MIN_VALUE...
@TomalakGeretkal You only need one finger for Ctrl-S? Wow.
11:33
No wonder it's bloody
@Tom: Let's get rid of our "edited........." and "@FredOverflow: Thanks" comments, shall we?
er, you know what I mean :D
@FredOverflow OK
@LucDanton Thanks. I lol'ed at that, broke my chair and fell.
I'm fine btw.
RLY?
Your chair is ruined?
@TomalakGeretkal The "For what?" comment is also kinda moot now :)
I have to admit it wasn't in the best of shapes.
11:35
@FredOverflow You're imagining things
Must have been a race condition. Not my fault if you don't delete two comments atomically ;)
Would you say that while *global is an lvalue to an object (the pointee), global is not ? As in memset(global, ...)
@FredOverflow piss off :P
@LucDanton There's possibly an lvalue-to-rvalue conversion
hmm, does that mean you're once more accessing the object through an rvalue?
hah
@LucDanton The standard is very clear about this. Variable names are always lvalues, and *p is always an lvalue.
Let's not get too fast
The paragraph is about "an lvalue to an object"
so my question still applies if memset were to pass by ref
11:38
memset is a C function, you cannot possibly pass by ref to it.
I love how I've completely hijacked your example in my post
And allow me to rephrase: *globalis an lvalue to a particular object, but global is not
@FredOverflow were to pass: use your imagination
...If C had classes and templates, Bjarne would never have invented C++.
Imagine more !
@FredOverflow :(
11:40
For instance, imagine a memset in a namespace other than std or the global one. Here, that wasn't too hard was it?
Imagine greater!
@LucDanton If Bell laboratories hadn't invented the transistor, we wouldn't have this conversation right now.
like wrestling. bastards.
@FredOverflow you don't know that.
We could be running our browsers on gigantic vacuum tube machines!
@LucDanton You could also imagine simply not including <cstring> and writing your own global memset... there, that was even simpler.
11:43
But I can never imagine myself putting stuff in the global namespace!
Why did we start imagining things again?
Because it's fun!
@LucDanton Really? I do it all the time :) Lazy bastard I am...
No love for my array answer :(
Well, for toy programs I don't bother putting an unnamed namespace I admit
0
A: C++ std::vector and contiguous memory of multidimensional arrays

FredOverflow For reference the way I currently create a 2D array in a contiguous memory block is by first making a (dynamic) array of float* of length N, allocating all N*5 floats in one array and then copying the address of every 5th element into the first array of float*. That's not a 2D array, that's ...

11:46
Well, I don't like C-arrays.
More generally, I don't like C-whatever.
std::array FTW!
Does a single caret symbol on a line have a meaning?
For a rabbit? Yes.
@MartinhoFernandes Loosely, "I agree with that message up there" or "what he said".
Oh, I thought that was what stars were for.
11:49
*
That doesn't work at all
@MartinhoFernandes They may be. ^ is more a part of the conversation than meta-information regarding elements of it. It's also non-SO specific.
@LucDanton heh
@LucDanton That's a splat!
(And ^ is a shark, not a caret).
INTERCAL character names are so stupid.
~~~^~~~~
It makes sense when you look at it through ASCII art
~ is a sqiggle.
(sic)
11:54
Let it be known that from now on, I'll refer to characters only by their silly INTERCAL name.
2
12:04
guess I really started something with this temporaries stuff, eh
@TomalakGeretkal And I thank you for that
> What happens when we run Human Mind 1.0 on the same hardware for longer? Do we find interesting high uptime bugs that were previously less noticable?
@MartinhoFernandes You mean if we would live longer?
Yes, that was what that comment was referring to.
Incomplete list of bugs in the human mind: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
12:18
@LucDanton =)
lol
hello? senility?
grey hair? skeletal collapse? wrinkles?
pretty much the entire scenario of "old age" [saying "ageing" wouldn't be strictly accurate] is due to our living past our sell-by date.
The idea was to consider what would happen with very reduced physical aging.
> It would be interesting to see what the rate of procrastination would be, when you have a mean of 600 years available to you. That's an awful lot of tomorrows to put things off to.
I see
Actually, I was considering this just the other day. Imagine if, in 50 years' time, it becomes possible for one person to "rewind" his life, sending his consciousness back inside his younger self. He could relive his life, making subtle alterations to try to perfect his circumstances using knowledge from the previous iteration.
If he were careful about the scope of his alterations, he could reliably assume that the technology would again become available, and the cycle could potentially repeat for ever.
Ugh, live the same thing over and over again?
My problems with this were two-fold:
* I prefer "self-consistency" to "alternate-reality" as a mechanism for avoiding paradoxes, and this scenario would require time travel to potentially involve jumping into alternate realities.
* How long before you go utterly mental, and just give up?
12:25
I then considered a slight alteration; what if you could only take information back subconsciously? What if you could engineer the subtle changes only by subtly altering your own psychology before you travel back? How many iterations until you have changed yourself so much as to cause damage? Hell, perhaps we already do this and that's where crazy people come from.
Fuck Markdown.
@MartinhoFernandes Not that bad IMO.
@MartinhoFernandes It's certainly not without similarities; I hadn't actually realised that until you posted the link as I never got around to watching that movie. I'd always assumed it was just a general "time travel can cause paradoxes" tale.
But, anyway, you could potentially live [subjectively] for thousands and thousands of years. How would the human mind (and we're probably going to have to assume here that any effect is a function of the consciousness, rather than of the physical brain) cope with such a lengthy lifespan?
It's not at all about paradoxes. It's really about the issues you were mentioning.
@MartinhoFernandes That's somewhat annoying. I was well proud of all this when I came up with it last week.
12:29
@TomalakGeretkal Some would find it impossible to consider the physical brain separate from consciousness, but I can roll with that.
I think most of us are not ready to cope with such a thing.
@MartinhoFernandes It's just going to have to be a conceit of the scenario. No getting around that.
@MartinhoFernandes The vast majority of people in the world explicitly believe such a thing.
Have you considered that everyone else you would interact with would be experimenting the same effect?
That would make it hard to keep subtle changes contained.
It would indeed be a butterfly effect (the chaos theory one, not the movie).
What about religion?
It would be something very "uncomfortable" to many.
@MartinhoFernandes My presumption is that the technology is only available to one person.
13 mins ago, by Tomalak Geret'kal
Actually, I was considering this just the other day. Imagine if, in 50 years' time, it becomes possible for one person to "rewind" his life, sending his consciousness back inside his younger self. He could relive his life, making subtle alterations to try to perfect his circumstances using knowledge from the previous iteration.
Oh, that's a bit selfish :)
@MartinhoFernandes And that's how Primer got out of hand :D
12:39
Gotta watch that one again. Maybe this time I'll finally understand everything that happened :)
@Martinho: Honestly, I just pity religious people anyway, and I don't concern myself with them too much
@DeadMG They're a large part of our society.
hopefully evolution will fix that soon
Any change that deals severe blows to religious beliefs is bound to cause conflict.
And by soon you mean few million years.
12:40
that's (one of) the reasons I'm a fan of getting rid of them
nah
secularism is on a massive rise, I don't think that religion has long left
in the UK, at least, they were looking at having to close many churches because there was no congregation anymore
until we opened our borders and many Catholics from Eastern Europe came, anywya
Don't underestimate it.
all I'm saying is that as the power of alternative explanations becomes more and more significant, it's only logical that people would become less religious
and that data in the real world indicates that secularism is on the rise on a fairly industrial scale
Look at how many people actually believed in that 'world ends on May 21st' crap.
yeah, a lot of poor indoctrinated morons bought it
that's just a function of how many people there are on the planet, not that a lot of people proportionally believed in it
don't confuse faith with religion
12:44
True, morons they were. If you actually believe in God you don't fear the rapture.
and that's just another example of why people choose to become secular- because science actually does shit and makes shit happen, and the Rapture never comes
It really takes only one person to form a following.
I have no problem with opening ones mind to the possibility that there's more than science, or that science is in fact not infallible (we can't prove science, because we can only ever prove anything with science)
religion is evil :(
12:45
the issue is indoctrination, i.e. large religions. And, really, "alternative explanations" don't come into it at all there.
yes
guys, if I can tell you one thing for live. don't start with religion. it destroys you
but we probably don't want to get into this.
I definitely have two main problems with religion- indoctrination of their children, and their attitude to discrimination
for example, in the area where I grew up, there was only one state-funded school, and it was a Christian faith school
what happened to my rights not to have to sing prayers every morning as a non-Christian?
we can never find out that "there's more to science", because that finding is science itself
12:46
and secondly
for example, the way that there's a big debate about allowing homosexual bishops in the UK right now
@DeadMG: You have no rights not to have to sing prayers. If it means nothing to you, then it's just words. You're being a hypocrite by asserting that they have some meaning to you that prohibits you from uttering them.
what would happen if Microsoft decided that they might not allow homosexual software developers?
religions get way too many exceptions to the law
Windows might get a bit better
That's not a good comparison.
12:47
then they would work at google and google would fuck microsoft
@JohannesSchaublitb exactly.
@JohannesSchaublitb Hee hee.
@Tomalak: It's infringing to make a person express Christian beliefs that they don't hold
pretty much the entire point, ever, of the freedom of religious expression laws is to prevent that exact thing
@DeadMG in fairness, I always rebelled against that pretty strongly (cathedral school). no-one really cared too much.
@DeadMG You knew what the school was when you enrolled.
@DeadMG The larger debate we're coming into now is whether it's fair to require certain specific criteria of enrolling children when there are few or no local, free alternatives
@Tomalak: I didn't have a choice
12:49
But that's not anything specific to religion
partly because there were no other local schools that I could have gone to
and partly because my parents enrolled me and as a four-year-old child, then you get what school you're given
strictly speaking I'm sure your parents could have moved if it really offended you
hah, yeah
if you had paid them twenty thousand pounds
there's also a case to be made here for the fact that it clearly did you no long-term harm, so why keep whining </devil>
could hardly afford to stay put
I disagree with that too
I mean, I know that I rant a lot here, but I'm especially intolerant of religion
12:50
as am I
@TomalakGeretkal No long-term harm? Have you seen him talk lately?
and I would like to think that I could be somewhat more understanding if I hadn't spent years having it rammed down my throat
@MartinhoFernandes well, fair enough ;P
I wouldn't say it's the problem is the religions themselves
@DeadMG I spent years having it rammed down my throat, and because of that I am especially qualified to be intolerant of it :) You were lucky, bud.
2
12:51
more of
when I was a christian, I wouldn't even go to random parties anymore because I thought they would handle with the devil
@DeadMG I'm pretty tolerant of religions.
the people following them
Wow, that can be taken out of context.
lol
12:51
@JohannesSchaublitb Nobody's ever going to hold you up as an example of a normal person, don't worry. :)
when I stopped being it, I had some fun :)
now you ARE a devil
I'm my experience some atheists are as annoying as theists.
@MartinhoFernandes 4chan.
12:52
i'm agnostic atheist.
well, I think that unlucky people who are stupid enough to believe religiously can believe what they like
it pisses me off when they try to shove this on to others or get special legal exemptions
And I know many nice religious people.
@DeadMG That's exactly the problem, humans
Including members of the clergy.
that's why I'm trying to intervene in the area51 proposal of "Christianity"
12:54
Just being religious doesn't make you a moron.
I never said they couldn't be nice
or perfectly pleasant people
but as institutions, I'd like to see them get burned to the ground
it hasn't got to do with stupidity to beleive in Christianity at all
@CatPlusPlus: Oh lord, that's good!
it's like when you sniff some drugs. and then you can't see clear anymore
12:55
@JohannesSchaublitb [atheism.se] went downhill.
@CatPlusPlus FFS... The image is blocked :')
@MartinhoFernandes :(
@Johannes: Hey, I had "indoctrination" up there too
well, I did earlier, anyway
Gotta love the ISP here
blocking everything..
12
Q: Christianity: Are rational questions allowed?

Johannes Schaub - litbProposal: Christianity Should this also allow questions that critically ask about the validity of the Christian faith, the Christian bible history and such? And questions about what the bible says about homosexuals, about women and such? I personally don't like seeing stackexchange grow up to ...

I'm following crypto.se just to get a badge.
I'm evil, aren't I.
@KhaledNassar Is imgur blocked too?
@MartinhoFernandes Nope
Uploaded it for you :)
@MartinhoFernandes Ah, thanks :)
12:59
@CatPlusPlus You really like badges, don't you?
@MartinhoFernandes Yeeeees.
@DeadMG I had a cross over my bed with "Jesus" engraved into it back then xD
@MartinhoFernandes ahahaha
@DeadMG again. faith != religion.
talking about believing in something is not the same discussion as talking about religions
it's the same thing
faith is belief without rational cause, and it's irrational, whether you like to believe in "something" or "A mysterious being that loves me to pieces and will fix all my problems if I just believe hard enough"
I had a question on atheism.se about difference of faith and religion
sadly the site went down :(
they said, you are "religious" if you go to church, and pray and such. but you have faith if you actually believe when you pray and if you don't go to church only for the kicks
13:08
@DeadMG you have faith in something whether you admit it or not
@DeadMG no, it is not.
religion is a cultural system [relating to varying forms of spirituality]. it's entirely orthogonal.
no you don't need to have faith
an agnostic atheist doesn't have faith
@JohannesSchaublitb DeadMG has faith that the laws of physics won't suddenly change overnight.
@Tomalak: That's backed by some quite reasonable evidence
that's a different sort of faith though
@DeadMG Which you believe in.
13:09
like the fact that the laws of physics have been pretty much the same for the last thirteen billion years or whatever it was
@JohannesSchaublitb Wrong. An atheist does not believe in all-powerful deities. An agnostic believes that the "truth" is unknowable.
you could kill yourself if you don't have that "faith" because your whole body is made based on that assumption
@JohannesSchaublitb You ought to look up the terms if you're going to assert to following them.
statistically, the probability that the laws of physics will change is incredibly unlikely
so I would call it an "assumption".
13:10
@DeadMG That's not evidence that it'll never change. What a horrendous logical fallacy you just made, without even noticing.
@DeadMG Well, that's like, your opinion, man.
I never said it would never change
@DeadMG Your faith is more solid than others. So what?
@DeadMG And, sorry, it's because you're blinded by anti-religiousness that you don't even know what it is that you're against.
@Martinho: "solid" faith => being rational, the definition of faith is irrational
13:10
In much the same way -- albeit on a smaller scale -- that Dawkins is just as much of an extremist as the worst religious nut.
@TomalakGeretkal i agree. but I think that "faith" means to trust in something
@JohannesSchaublitb correct.
an agnostic atheist doesn't trust in anything. he just has the believe that what you said
@JohannesSchaublitb neither "agnostic" nor "atheist" explicitly means a lack of faith.
@Tomalak: Oh, I'm sorry, was it too easy to label me? I never said that the laws of physics would never change, I only said that it was incredibly unlikely that I would ever observe such a thing
13:11
i don't trust into my believe
@DeadMG It was quite easy, yes :)
if it turns out that god is proven, then I can change my belief without causing harm
anyway, you're all wrong, and I'm right, and that's that
ok
well, I'll go have a rational discussion somewhere else then
lol
if you are around frankfurt you can meet to a coffee with me and then we can have a rationale discussion xD
13:12
winds me up when western mainstreamers bring this debate down to "does [the abrahamic] god exist", when it's so much more involved than that
@DeadMG you should have taken my statement to mean "this isn't really the place for a rational discussion on religion, come to think of it, and we're getting srs"
all we need is a standard on this
@JohannesSchaublitb hopefully one a little less ambiguous than fucking C++
when I was a christian, my spec was the bible. It felt nice to be able to cite from it
now the substitute turned out to be the ISO C++ spec
xD
By now I should have learned that bringing up religion into a discussion on a thought experiment leads to abandoning said discussion and spiraling down to the usual "holy war".
Happens all the the time :(
i can symphatize to the FSM faith
13:16
@MartinhoFernandes It's sad, really. And It's even worse that educated people happen to have the same disease.
@JohannesSchaublitb Which denomination was it, if I may ask?
@MartinhoFernandes :) Of course. Although I think we managed to actually be generally logical.
That there were some misunderstandings to be corrected doesn't make it a "war"
a "war" is when the conversation devolves into "well it doesn't matter what you say, when you die you will be cast down unto hell by Him and then forgiven by the Mighty Lord Jesus who Died for your Sins, so stop talking rubbish and go to Church where you can Be Saved", and the other side goes "oh shut the fuck up you moron, use a rational argument"
I agree, it wasn't as catastrophic as I've witnessed in some other occasions, but what makes me sad is that the "religion issue" always seems to take the stage, instead of leading to an interesting discussion of the effects on it.
That makes me sad too, though I long ago accepted it as largely unavoidable.
And, again, what really frustrates me is how few people really understand the underlying issues. Not to mention the bloody words they're using.
It's easier to just shrug your shoulders, and say "we can't fix this". Because it's too big.
And to go back to C++.
Oh, that. My debugger is still running!
13:29
@StackedCrooked evangelical xD
fuck i've been here all day
bbl lunchhhh
13:40
@JohannesSchaublitb I was evangelical for a good 15 years. Left 5 years ago.
13:53
One advantage is knowing the answer to bible questions in quizzes.
We doing Lounge<Jesus> now?
14:12
@ÓlafurWaage Makes me wonder. How would you model the Trinity in a programming language? With a union?
ooooo Hi all....:)
@StackedCrooked perhaps that is the reason it's so messed up.
14:29
@StackedCrooked how would you ever choose the alignment for such an object?! depending on which part you're accessing, and which testament you're in, you could get lawful evil, true neutral or so-lawful-good-it-makes-you-sick!
i figured that if you add the birthday years from adam to abraham together (iirc based on the septuaginta) you end up with 1948 . i considered it as a "hidden prophecy" back then xD
@Anton Have you no faith? :D
@JohannesSchaublitb So... what was your prophecy for 1948 at the time then?
but in the end you can find all sort of fun combinations, so it's not really a prophecy
@StackedCrooked I prefer to leave religious belief to individual implementations
14:38
@MartinhoFernandes: I just got rid completely of the need for synchronized in my concurrent iteration scheme :)
Java's concurrent collections are quite awesome. Not perfect, but still awesome.
@LucDanton Israel I guess?

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