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22:00
Yaaay, 20%~
he is just trying to get the sandwich
@sehe I'm so good.
@sehe Baby is learning how to use a computer. Baby presses keyboard shortcut. Baby is now a 100WPM typist. :P
You can all hug me now.
Sorry, phone call.
22:00
@EtiennedeMartel :hug:
@MartinJames I must ask... why do you ask why? :D
Hmm.. for some reason, I feel an acute need for beer and sandwiches. Bye for now.
@Jerry how about me? I will always unlock when you turn me for all eternity if you give me the sandwich! (Although how would be problematic. Just stuff it in the keyhole or something.)
@Pawnguy7 I felt a sword-of-damocles-like wall-of-assembler about to drop onto my head if I answered in the affirmative. I'm a coward~:)
Anyway. Beer.
@Doorknob I'll have to think about it.
22:02
Anyway, I was asking because, I have heard it said that learning assembly is sort of like learning another paradigm. It could also be useful in optimization situations, or debugging. Also, I think I would like to learn things from it - in the same way that, for example, Java hides things, so does C - for example, arrays, objects, vtables, and similar things.
ok @Jerry :P
I was wondering about your opinions on the idea.
Alright.
@Pawnguy7 assembly is pretty much useless for 99.9% of uses
@BartekBanachewicz Useless for production? Quite likely. I mean, useful in terms of learning.
22:03
@BartekBanachewicz s/99.9/100/
@Pawnguy7 I'd guess it's generally a pretty roundabout, inefficient way to learn about things unless you honestly have some direct use for it (e.g., writing code for tiny embedded systems).
@Pawnguy7 no, even for learning.
.... Um. Hm.
Okay, so I think depth-testing is failing.
it's better to just learn a language than to read assembly
Low-level drivers, boot code and kernel cores. Now I really must get beer!
22:04
So, it is like saying you can learn Java and never know about pointers, because you can get by without them, or because this is, give or take, kind of the bottom?
@ThePhD what makes you think that
@MartinJames GOGOGO
@Pawnguy7 java has no pointers
That is my point. Java programmers never need to learn them some say, discouraging learning C/C++
22:05
@melak47 The model part that is drawn second always draws above the first.
No matter what.
Hey, I have great news. I made a sandwich! Unfortunately my first attempt of Sandwich.createNewWithIngredients('ham', 'cheese') completely failed.
@Pawnguy7 If you learn C or C++, pointers exist there. In Java they don't. What's so hard to get?
@ThePhD sounds like what happens when you don't do depth testing, yep. :D
@Doorknob Bread is often handy when making a sandwich.
2
@melak47 Do individual render targets need a depth stencil?
22:06
How about this: from your perspective, do you think people that know only Java should, at some point, learn C or C++?
@JerryCoffin oh. I forgot about that. :P
@Doorknob you need peanut butter and jelly, duh
Why is everyone talking about sandwiches.
@Pawnguy7 Depends on whether they want to know C and/or C++.
@Pawnguy7 Depends on what they want to write. I know C++, but now I am learning Java.
22:07
@ThePhD hm? nah
@EtiennedeMartel because sandwiches are tasty.
I see. I guess I am one of those who wants to know how everything works, which is both beneficial and a bit destructive.
@EtiennedeMartel I'm afraid I'm the culprit.
11 mins ago, by Jerry Coffin
@Pawnguy7 Yes -- I can assemble a fairly decent ham sandwich.
Hm.
@Pawnguy7 except it is not beneficial at all
just look at @ThePhD
22:08
@ThePhD check if a depth buffer view is actually bound?
he is trying to write everything himself.
@BartekBanachewicz It is beneficial
@BartekBanachewicz Precisely
Wat.
Hey wait a second I don't try to know how everything works.
Yes, it is also true in terms of libraries, in which case I am a bit of a hypocrite :D
@Pawnguy7 If you really want to know how things work, learning assembly would be a good start. Your next step would be Verilog (or VHDL).
22:09
To this day, I still do not know how std::allocator actually does its damn job.
There is something below assembly?
@Pawnguy7 machine code
@ThePhD Er, it's not that complicated?
What is Verilog?
Hardware description language
22:09
@Pawnguy7 Hardware design language.
@CatPlusPlus I tried. But I couldn't make a pool-based one to save my life. D:
The allocator interface is kinda bad
@CatPlusPlus That's what I said!
No, you said you don't know how they work :v:
22:10
@ThePhD do a ID3D11DeviceContext::OMGetRenderTargets and see if it spits out the right depth stencil view maybe
@CatPlusPlus what was that silly extension to get your silly emoticons working?
yay :v:
I guess knowing assembly is useful for some... less software engineering, more scienceish things, like language/compiler design or embedded systems.
@Pawnguy7 language design <-> assembly? o_O
Yeah completely unrelated
22:13
:v:
Aww
It doesn't work. =[
@ThePhD it does. just breaks when your post "flickers"
@CatPlusPlus TIL :dings: :dings: :dings: :dings:
:)
OH GOD
@melak47 I mean to say, implementing the language, say a compiler.
THIS SI FUCKING HORRIBLE
WHY DID I PICK UP THIS EXTENSION ALL THE SMILEYS ARE EVERYWHERE ;~;
22:14
@Pawnguy7 Completely unrelated
@Pawnguy7 I don't know much about that, but wouldn't you want to keep that as high level as possible? not fucking assembly?
Also assembly has nothing to do with any science
Say, if you were to make a new OO concept.
@Pawnguy7 assembly is unrelated at all
I am not saying you would need to MAKE it in assembly, I am saying things you learn in assembly can help, Iw ould think.
22:16
No
no, they won't help at all.
@ThePhD learn to make userscripts run only where you want them to run :3
Fine. I concede... my answers are always wrong :D
@Pawnguy7 wrong!
by definition :)
@melak47 Yeah, fixed it lickey-split.
22:18
@Pawnguy7 There is a point (e.g., when writing code for a peephole optimizer) that knowing some assembly could be helpful. It's honestly a pretty small part of writing a compiler though.
How about helpful in areas such as optimization?
@Pawnguy7 he said that pinhole optimization is a small part of writing a compiler. What he didn't say is that compilers can't really do any other optimizations.
I mean in normal programs. Like, why a sorted list is x times faster than unsorted, say.
Having to do with branches at some lower level.
that's just "don't use if statements"
fuck my chunks are buggy :/
Nothing worse than buggy chunks...
Ell
Ell
22:26
What's buggy about em?
@Pawnguy7 Half buggy chunks are worse.
@Ell they don't work.
too much code like this:
x = (x >= 0) ? (x % size) : size-(-x % size);
y = (y >= 0) ? (y % size) : size-(-y % size);
z = (z >= 0) ? (z % size) : size-(-z % size);
Ell
Ell
I do hate chunks :P
auto chunk = [](int x) { return x >= 0 ? x % size : size - (-x % size); }; x = chunk(x); y = chunk(y); z = chunk(z);
Ell
Ell
boot multi array has a neat thing
22:28
@DeadMG the equations are the problem, not separation.
all I'm saying is
not respecting DRY sucks cocksickle.
Ell
Ell
View class, let's you move it through a multi array
@Ell i am using a map to store chunks
22:36
Think there are any game-making tuturials for C# that don't involve XNA?
game making in C# is lame
doubt it
Do I understand n3616 right that static if should/will stay a dream?
3613*
That paper is a proof that Stroustrup is nuts.
right, sorry.
22:39
@BartekBanachewicz Eh
@bamboon There's a study group working on "concepts lite". Exactly what that'll eventually produce remains open to considerable question.
Why would it?
Ell
Ell
What is it?
The only case when the paper is right is that concepts vs function scope if part. Everything else is total bullshit.
Doesn't Unity use C#?
22:40
C#, javascript and something else IIRC
They seem to think that concepts can fix boilerplate needed to code this: template<int N> void foo() { /* do much work /* static if (N > 5) /* do something */ else /* do something else */ /* do much work */ }.
@EtiennedeMartel what?
@EtiennedeMartel Unity is meh.
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
I've seen good looking stuff with it. And cool games use it.
Xeo
Xeo
Hmm. Bjarne does not like static if, huh.
@EtiennedeMartel it's in that weird spot where you don't really have an engine yet, but don't have the real power of your GPU
@Xeo link plz?
@BartekBanachewicz So....?
@Xeo That's the exact reason why I called him nuts.
Does that mean you can't make good games with it?
@EtiennedeMartel no, of course not.
You can make good games with Atari BASIC
I just don't see the point of it.
From what I hear Unity is easy to learn. That's a plus considering the audience it targets
Plus there's some neat stuff from it.
22:43
@BartekBanachewicz It's cheaper than Unreal.
And allows for relatively quick development of multiplatform games.
@EtiennedeMartel there are other engines than Unreal
Like what? CryEngine? That costs more
@Borgleader if you want something easy to learn, you should pick a language easier than C#
@BartekBanachewicz That target as many platforms? And with good tools?
@BartekBanachewicz How is C# not easy to learn?
22:44
Because face it, what makes an off-the-shelf engine good is the tool pipeline more than the engine itself.
That's why Unreal is so popular: it got great tools.
@Borgleader compared to Lua it's damn hard.
@EtiennedeMartel and great tech.
Ell
Ell
nah c# is easier than Lua IMHO
@BartekBanachewicz People I've talked to seem to tell the tech isn't that awesome, at least by today's standards.
@BartekBanachewicz Not so great tech tbh
Ell
Ell
For an average skill set
22:46
anyway bbiab
@EtiennedeMartel Name any other engine that has realtime dynamic lighting like UE4 //cc @Borgleader
@BartekBanachewicz Is UE4 publicly available?
user142019
@BartekBanachewicz wat.
@EtiennedeMartel parts of it.
Because I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about stuff you can buy right now.
user142019
22:46
C# is like, one of the easiest languages in existence.
@Xeo That's a bit of an understatement reading that paper
@Zoidberg no.
user142019
@BartekBanachewicz you just suck.
@Zoidberg The library is huge, but the language is easy.
@Zoidberg said Zoidberg. that really means much, considering your experience sucking.
Xeo
Xeo
22:47
@sehe :)
@Zoidberg easy? No. Convenient, yes
it is not easy per se
it is fast to use for an experienced developer
but if you are learning programming in general, I don't really think C# is that easy.
@BartekBanachewicz ...assuming he uses VS (or, theoretically, some other IDE that takes care of most of the details).
@BartekBanachewicz The same is true for any language, really.
Your first one is gonna be hard.
That's the rule.
@Xeo I think Bjarne is right in "taking the brakes" in the light of the plethora of "ooh we can do this too" proposals.
I'm not so sure whether the argument 'tool support is going to be harder' cuts wood. I'd say, that's not likely for the 'template constraint' type of application (in fact, it's probably going to be easier for tools to do impact analysis, since they would likely be able to detect which instantiations apply, instead of having to do full SFINAE and partial orderings)
Ell
Ell
22:50
For each paradigm at least
@JerryCoffin You mean Microsoft ReSharper Host?
@EtiennedeMartel do you write your game in C#?
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe He still has very sound arguments wrt syntax checking etc. for the compiler
But yeah, "abusing" static if for things that have historically been "#ifdef"/#endif" that would probably be a lot worse for tooling
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, that.
22:51
I'm personally in favour of "modules before static if"
modules <3
we totally need them.
pavlov
@BartekBanachewicz No, because "my" game is an exercise in learning.
Xeo
Xeo
Because static if only allows for Boolean decisions, overloading on a set of overlapping constraints requires the programmer to write bounding predicates like those above (e.g., input iterator but not bidirectional, bidirectional but not random access, etc...). This model of overloading is brittle, error-prone, verbose, and defines a “closed world”. No other overloads may be considered without modifying the constraints on the existing declarations in order to ensure consistency.
user142019
My prediction is that modules in C++ will suck.
22:52
So, that means writing the engine from scratch.
Xeo
Xeo
Bwahaha, in comes my priority<N>. kekeke
But, if I had to ship a game fast in order to make rent, then I would probably go with Unity, because it's cheap, it's good, and it does the job.
@EtiennedeMartel Does C# forbid writing engines in it? :)
@BartekBanachewicz For the kind of gameplay features we're aiming for, we need all the power we can get. So, C++.
@EtiennedeMartel I would use Corona. But hell, it's a matter of taste.
@EtiennedeMartel Minicraft case is similar actually.
I would be glad if I could write it entirely in Lua
22:53
However, said features mean higher production costs, so, again, if we had to ship a game quickly, we couldn't make that game in particular.
but the world is just too big.
@EtiennedeMartel that's obvious for any high level/low level tradeoff
@BartekBanachewicz But, yeah, I probably got a concept lying around that I could use C# for.
@BartekBanachewicz In theory no. In reality, when Microsoft changes what (if anything) they support every couple of years (Managed DX, XNA, currently kinda sorta SlimDX, next week maybe not that either), so nobody's really sure what their engine can use, it becomes much more burdensome.
Speaking of C#, that's what I'm hoping to use for the scripting layer.
So, parts of the game will be in C#.
scripting in C#?
Y.
Y U NO Lua
Ell
Ell
22:56
What is an oop Equivalent of lua?
I love ruby actually
@BartekBanachewicz Because I don't like Lua.
It's "too hard".
@EtiennedeMartel you just broke my heart :/
user142019
@Ell Python?
(i.e. I'm too fucking lazy to learn it)
Ell
Ell
I know you can do Oop with prototype tables and shiz but thats inconvenient
22:56
@Ell Lua can do OOP
@Ell Lua has OOP.
@Ell how the fuck is that inconvenient?
@Ell Like in JS?
If it's like in JS, I don't want to touch that thing.
Ell
Ell
I think its like JS yeah
much better than in JS imo
user142019
22:57
@BartekBanachewicz still says nothing.
Ell
Ell
its inconvenient because I just want to do class MyClass ...
@Zoidberg yea because in zoidlang it's totally better.
Xeo
Xeo
Don't say anything about Lua while near @Bartek
It's better that way.
Use TCL instead (there, now everybody can agree: that suggestion sucks)!
@JerryCoffin yay that sucks
@Ell MyClass = class { } is sooooo inconvenient
Ell
Ell
22:59
Python is a good suggestion
Meh I just don't like the idea of it :P
what about this and stuff? Is that supported?

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