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21:00
btw, I think it should be "an PHP" and not "gegen PHP" in the title
I didn't write that!
What flaming dumbass converts a 64-bit double to a 16-bit integer.
Who could be that blisteringly retarded when writing software for a 7-billion dollar rocket?
Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "it ain't rocket science"
> Use the primitive type int to represent code points in low-level APIs, such as the static methods of the Character class. Interpret char sequences in all forms as UTF-16 sequences, and promote their use in higher-level APIs.
haha, so much wrong.
"Use low-level details in the higher-level APIs and vice-versa"
> Interpret char sequences in all forms as UTF-16 sequences
:thumbsup:
21:05
@CatPlusPlus (Context is Java and Unicode 2.0) Since they were using UCS-2 that was the least disturbing option. Can't really blame them for that.
Eh, Firefox addon for desktop notifications sucks
@R.MartinhoFernandes o_O That's... some interesting advice.
@ThePhD It's not advice, it's what they chose.
PLEASE do NOT use system("pause");... just don't. — Volkan İlbeyli 27 secs ago
system("PAUSE"); // Is the best.
21:07
Is it me, or is this guy making a mountain out of a molehill?
YAAAY minicraft is alive again
Hm.
I've missed my cubes <3
I think what I'm going to do is write a level out in a random format and refine it until I like what I see.
@EtiennedeMartel Long hair, earring, 100 rep... Authority simply spews out of him.
21:10
Then after I do that I'll attempt to write a parser / lexer for it.
and it revealed shitload of failures in shader class design of course
@EtiennedeMartel Cue someone asking why
@BartekBanachewicz You;re writing a shader class? :O
Let me know how it goes. I wrote my own and I think it's good but I have no one else to compare it to.
21:12
Lemme just commit the fixed version
> Note that most methods that accept a code point do not check whether the given int value is in the range of valid Unicode code points (...). (...) checking it repeatedly in these low-level APIs might adversely affect system performance. (...) The behavior of most methods for invalid code points is intentionally unspecified and may vary between implementations.
Also, does OpenGL have the concept of "Shader parameter buffers" ?
Oooh, found UB in Java.
@ThePhD yes. They are called UBOs IIRC
@BartekBanachewicz How far back does that go?
OGL 4.0 ?
... UBOs?
Man, GL really loves to keep around its BO. =l
21:13
mhm, something like 4.0-4.1 I think
Yeah... too bad OpenGL 4.0 is supported on a very slim majority of machines, AFAIR...
@ThePhD what?
@EtiennedeMartel lol
21:14
@ThePhD 3.1. /cc @Bartek
@EtiennedeMartel Ahaha :D
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks
OOOH 3.1 yaaay then that's acceptable. :D
I guess 3.1 will be the base of what I use then~
21:15
no
@ThePhD use 3.3
Why? o_O
@Cicada what was the lowest GL your computer supported?
Just use 3.3
4.x is basically DX11-grade hardware. It's not that uncommon. But if you want a major audience, go for 3.x
@Bartek CVector3? CMatrix4? CColor?
What is that? Hungarian notation?
@EtiennedeMartel sigh relics
21:15
C? C stands for Class I think.
Most tutorials do it.
Horrible.
Terrible.
CVector, CPlane, etc. etc.
I thought it stood for Crap.
no shit, sherlock
I never liked it.
21:16
@ThePhD Because many C++ programmers learned OO design from MFC.
@EtiennedeMartel CrapVector3, CrapMatrix4, Brown.
C is for "concrete" and A for "abstract".
But almost every legacy DX and GL tutorial (read: nearly all) had it around. ._.
@Abyx I used "I" actually
I is for "interface"
21:17
:|
what's the difference between "abstract" and "interface"?
interfaces != abstract classes...
sigh.
@Abyx member variables?
... That's, er.
An interesting implementation.
:D
@ThePhD what do you mean? Also mind that's still WiP
21:18
@BartekBanachewicz public destructor
OH LOOK PONIES
Although realistically, if you really want to make PC games, you'll go for DX1x and swallow your cross-platforming pride. Because, at the end of the day, nobody cares for Linux gaming except us. That's the truth, flame all you want.

And OpenGLES 2.x on mobile platforms, where OGL lib loading overhead is gone due to vendor-specific implementations.
@DomagojPandža GL > DX
user142019
Shall I become a professional clown.
21:19
@BartekBanachewicz Unicode agrees.
@BartekBanachewicz Less words, more deeds.
user142019
C and A before every class is a terrible convention.
In the end, once you write a good DX implementation you can transplant it over to openGL easily enough.
@DomagojPandža That would be too lengthy discussion. Let's assume we had it and settle on the fact that GL is very competitive to dying DirectX on desktop
because let's face it, DX isn't going anywhere as for now
@BartekBanachewicz Let's not
21:20
Uh-huh.
You're right, it's not going anywhere because it's stuck in the Windows OS now.
where all the gamers are
Microsoft already uses and suggest OpenGL for windows Phone
@DeadMG Mwahahah. all.
@BartekBanachewicz Eh? I thought it was DX11 only.
Because the Windows Phone market is fat.
21:21
What about PS3 market?
Or incoming Steambox?
@BartekBanachewicz Consoles are dying anyway.
Or iOS and Mac OS?
PS3, PS Vita, etc. uses an OpenGL-like interface, I think.
also, you're not really comparing apples and oranges here.
21:22
@BartekBanachewicz Let's face it, most Darwin users are on iOS, not OS X.
DX vs OGL is an x86 issue, the other platforms are irrelevant.
I am comparing all gaming platforms.
Well that basically means that either way OpenGL stays
and the Steambox is irrelevant since it has 0 users right now, and Mac OS is worth virtually nothing (the only thing worth less is desktop Linux gamers)
user142019
iOS uses OpenGL ES, OS X doesn't.
@BartekBanachewicz I don't recall seeing anywone say that OGL was dying.
21:23
OS X is so behind, it's laughable.
Whilst Dx is right now in a very limited PC gaming space.
OS X just uses OpenGL, and it's OpenGL support is.. ... kinda shitty. o_O
@BartekBanachewicz And the 360.
and 360, right.
@BartekBanachewicz pastebin.com/WXfMtYVj
21:23
Which has the largest market share amongst the "Big Three".
user142019
@ThePhD its
@BartekBanachewicz Consoles are going down the pan, and DX is on 360 anyway.
@DomagojPandža I get this feeling that if I hadn't just been feeding a baby for a while, I'd have been a little embarrassed instead. Thanks for the kind words in any case.
What was their last library support in OSX 10.6 ?
Like, ..... 3.1 ?
@Abyx can you use some normal pasting service? Like gist? pastebin ain't working with my DNS ;/
21:23
So, DX is used for the most common PC OS and the most common gaming console (excluding the Wii, but let's not talk about the Wii).
My Duality Engine supports OpenGL only as an experimental feature because of the 4.3 sparse textures.
Far from "limited", it seems.
Yea let's talk about only targets Dx supports
OpenGL is not dying. But when x86 is concerned, DX > GL.
Because other are totally nonrelevant
21:24
@DomagojPandža s/x86/Windows
@BartekBanachewicz I'm talking about market share, not number of platforms.
 struct IFoo { // Foo "interface"
    virtual f() = 0;
protected:
    ~IFoo() {}
};

struct AFoo : IFoo { // Foo abstract class
    virtual ~IFoo() {}
};

difference: you can own object via pointer to AFoo, i.e. write unique_ptr<AFoo>,
but you can't own it via pointer to IFoo
DX still makes sense from a commercial point of view.
Of course, you can fuck commerciality in the ass and go for principles, which is what you seem to be doing.
We'll see for how long
@EtiennedeMartel exactly
But for developers, it still makes sense to use DX.
21:25
@EtiennedeMartel Except for the argument of portability, which I'm hoping they have a plan for adapting to...
user142019
Why would you prefix classes with C or A.
user142019
You can find out a class is abstract when you look at its interface or when you try to instantiate it.
@Zoidberg Because you're a C*** or an A******.
Right now converting minicraft to any platform would be trivial though
21:26
@ShotgunNinja Everyone pulls that shit. Reminds me of when people were claiming that Java was better than C# becore it was portable.
and that's not only principle, that's a fact
@BartekBanachewicz It's also virtually irrelevant.
@EtiennedeMartel WPF is still not portable.
there's no reason to port your game to any desktop platform except Windows.
Eh... in today's age, you can implement your game in either API. It's really just a matter of taste at this point. D:
21:26
@Abyx That doesn't matter.
@DeadMG Why? Most people try to compile it on non-windows systems as for now
@EtiennedeMartel Using DX does. I'm not sure DX itself does, or ever did. If all the time and effort put into supporting DX had been put into OpenGL instead, I'm pretty sure we'd have one platform better than anything available today.
Portability does not matter.
@ShotgunNinja They're close enough.
@EtiennedeMartel well maybe for you :/
21:27
@Abyx Because of DX, no less :)
@JerryCoffin From what I've heard, SGI dropped Microsoft back when they were working on OGL, so MS went and did their own thing.
@JerryCoffin I'm not so sure. A Standards Committee can make things bad no matter how much you invest in it.
OpenGL and DirectX have been in a pissing war for ages. And instead of actually competing in things that matter, they dick around with the choice of coordinate systems, way they encode stuff, OGL with its vendor-can-do-whatever-the-fuck-he-wants lib loading overhead and a bunch of other tedious things.
I don't know if that's true, but that wouldn't surprise me, since SGI are a bunch of idiots.
well, *nix sucks, so yep, screw portability
21:27
Microsoft is in SGI now anyway
So is Intel and NVidia
IIRC, OpenGL had the chance to push features and corner the market a long time ago.
But they were so slow about it that DX got the upper hand anyhow.
@BartekBanachewicz Portability is a feature. It's not always required.
most features are implemented as OGL extensions earlier than Dx
@EtiennedeMartel I require it.
~Standards Committees~, impeding progress since the 20th century.
21:28
@BartekBanachewicz Extensions are irrelevant.
@DeadMG WHAT
are you serious now?
Extensions are.... an asshole to use. ;~;
ALSO, one thing that makes DX11 better in my head than OpenGL: Feature Levels.
@BartekBanachewicz and girls, don't be sexist now.
user142019
21:29
3D graphics suck.
Ell
Ell
I don't understand why dx makes sense if you start from scratch?
What he said, extensions are irrelevant. Standardized feature sets.
I don't want to be offensive, but saying that extensions are irrelevant is complete and utter bullshit
Ell
Ell
is dx easier or something? o.O
21:29
@EtiennedeMartel Then you heard wrong. SGI was pretty much bending over backward to keep MS onboard, but one group in MS bought out the company that wrote what became DX, and...well, you can pretty much guess how things went from there.
I can tell DX11 to run on older hardware levels.
@Ell Because it's way easier and simpler to use than OGL, and there's no reason to give a single shit about portability.
I don't give a fuck about Nvidia's 4.3 sparse textures when AMD is still sitting alone.
user142019
@Ell it's higher-level.
@JerryCoffin Well, well.
Ell
Ell
21:29
@EtiennedeMartel I mean, I don't know why dx is commercially better
That doesn't surprise me either.
@DomagojPandža I don't give a fuck about AMD
I can't tell openGL to make a 4.3 context, that downlevels to a Feature Level of OpenGL 3.1.
@EtiennedeMartel I don't think it is true. See tale here: programmers.stackexchange.com/a/88055/1850
user142019
And DirectX has an API that actually makes a little sense.
21:29
@Ell Support, mostly.
user142019
OpenGL is one giant myriad of state.
Let's not forget that for a while, OGL was so fucking behind D3D it wasn't even funny.
@BartekBanachewicz So, just pull the plug on all the users that don't support something. You're going places.
Ell
Ell
I think the opengl api makes sense o.O
21:30
Let's go back to 1992 now, that makes a lot of sense
@Zoidberg It does not make one iota of a difference.
Then they pulled their shit together and decided that perhaps it was time to start posing an actual threat.
@BartekBanachewicz I was talking to @Ell.
@DomagojPandža you are doing the same with supporting only Windows
You are being hypocritic right now
1) fuck portability
2) extensions are bad
@EtiennedeMartel The other part that problem comes as little surprise (once you know that much) is that apparently a fair number of people at MS were pretty pissed about it. They'd done a lot of work implementing OGL for Windows NT, then the rug was pulled out from under them.
@BartekBanachewicz Except the non-Windows-desktop-gaming demographic is only 5% at most.
and they already well know and expect that many games do not support non-Windows desktop operating systems.
21:31
@DeadMG show me proof of that
@JerryCoffin Well, isn't Microsoft a bunch of teams competing against each other?
on the other hand, there is a large proportion of customers with Intel or AMD graphical devices
and they expect games to work for them.
Intel will support 4.3 soon.
Ell
Ell
@ScottW yep
@ScottW Yes.
21:32
@BartekBanachewicz The only "soon" that matters is when it becomes part of the core API.
@BartekBanachewicz I hope you're going to port Minicraft to Android or something, because otherwise Linux support isn't gonna mean shit.
@ScottW Only if you run around naked on your last day.
@EtiennedeMartel iOS
@BartekBanachewicz That also.
@jalf I'm sorry, I chose the evil side for now. But maybe in the future we meet again.
21:32
Wait a second
@BartekBanachewicz 4.3 brings what? Compute shaders?
@EtiennedeMartel Largely, yes. In this case, the NT group had done OpenGL, then the Windows 3.1 people (I think) decided to buy out what became DX. At the time, NT had so little market share, they couldn't do much about it.
does OGL have something similar to Feature Levels ?
@R.MartinhoFernandes mhm. and a bit more.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sparse textures.
@ScottW At what?
21:34
Or do you create the Feature Levels yourself?
OpenGL is better for ideological reasons, and they will matter in the future
@ScottW Far from it, my friend.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Compute shaders are still not part of the core?
@EtiennedeMartel they are in 4.3
@EtiennedeMartel They are in 4.3. That's what I said.
21:34
"Hell, it's about time".
Also
EXTENSIONS
EXTENSIONS ARE IRRELEVANT.
Jesus.
@EtiennedeMartel You had OpenCL before, but there was overhead in passing shit around, so they put it in core.
I wonder why it takes so much time to bring new features to the OGL core. Wait, I'm gonna read the most recent C++14 draft.
21:35
Aren't extensions really specific?
(See what I did there?)
indeed they are
Like, to specific companies?
@DomagojPandža Are there extensions in D3D?
no, extensions are pretty much what dx will steal and put into core before Dx does
21:35
Like NV_EXT, etc. etc. etc.
Extensions are vendors playing around. You cannot guarantee support, you can only give beneficial status to people who own specific cards.
there are not only NV_
there are EXT_ and ARB_
@EtiennedeMartel No, just awesome feature levels. All cards of a generation support the full set with varying performance.
Thank god for GLEW, eh?
@DomagojPandža which would be like every card for EXT_ and ARB_
21:36
What if a user's GPU doesn't support an extension you need? Do you just crash?
All the cool toys are vendor-specific with OGL.
Thank god you all work in NVidia and AMD and write the drivers
Or fallback to something inadequate?
@DomagojPandža That sounds awesome. (And I'm sure OpenGL has the same trouble)
@EtiennedeMartel fallback.
21:36
@EtiennedeMartel Fallback to something that sucks dick.
@BartekBanachewicz Sooo..... does that strikes you as a positive thing?
@EtiennedeMartel Yes -- specifically, to DX! :-)
What I'm saying is: fuck design by committee.
21:37
So fucking slow.
man
what you are saying is "I know better and fuck other opinions"
@BartekBanachewicz Woa, woa woa.
the Linkin Park opener for A Thousand Suns has some fairly strong piano bits
And you won't even try to listen to me
21:38
I don't know jack shit about OGL, alright.
@EtiennedeMartel Do you honestly think there's one guy at MS designing DX all by himself?
and it reminds me of when BSG was both airing and good.
@EtiennedeMartel that is apparent.
@JerryCoffin By "committee", I mean "committee formed by more than one organization".
So I don't understand why are you trying to brag all kinds of shit about GL if you don't know it
21:38
I'm not trying to brag.
I am getting paid for working with OpenGL
@BartekBanachewicz Ooh, where at? :O
Oh, god, I hate opinionated children / open-source-dickwads-just-starting-out-with-graphics-never-seen-an-integral-over-a-hemisphere OGL dicksuckers.
@ThePhD Dude... I am in Intel Graphic Drivers GL Validation Team
I don't remember saying anything about how DX is superior, feature wise, to OGL.
21:39
Plonking close hatred right about now.
I am not plonking anyone, I'll rather just log out.
@EtiennedeMartel In this case, it appears that the OpenGL "committee" (Architecture Review Board) was moving slowly largely because MS was a member, and may have been actively obstructing it after they decided to favor DX. Once MS withdrew from the ARB, things started moving quite a bit faster on the OGL side.
But we can just keep it civilized
@JerryCoffin Hmmmm.
MS acting like dicks? How strange.
Conspiraaaccyy
I wouldn't put it past MS.
21:40
OGL and DX need to stop the pissing war. They're just harming the developers.
@BartekBanachewicz I never knew. Sounds exciting.
Jul 26 '12 at 15:44, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@chris I have designer tinfoil hats for sale.
@R.MartinhoFernandes do they come in blue
@ThePhD and guess what the big part of our work is
THough, actually. Does anyone remember the Microsoft Windows Vista scare?
21:40
extensions
@BartekBanachewicz Evangelizing?
@EtiennedeMartel hehe
22 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
extensions
How they stated they'd get rid of the OpenGL libraries that come with the OS?
(Not that it mattered, they are OpenGL 1.1 libraries).
I should add, that I've never reviewed any meeting minutes, or anything like that, but the acceleration after MS quit the ARB seemed quite apparent. OTOH, that could have been because their withdrawal acted as a wakeup call to the rest of the ARB that they way they were working wasn't acceptable.
21:41
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? The guy says he's getting paid to work with OGL. Doesn't strike me as unbiased.
@ThePhD exactly
(I'm joking. Don't get your knickers in a twist).
What really confuses me about your DirectX centric view is why you are so against the mere existence of OpenGL.
@EtiennedeMartel "hehe" is my way of saying "good one".
the point is, extensions are very widely supported
21:42
@R.MartinhoFernandes <3
And core+extensions is ahead of Dx for a long time now
@EtiennedeMartel I am paid to work with Java, I still hate it
@BartekBanachewicz Then why call them extensions? Why not put them in the core right away?
@thecoshman Yeah, but you're always whining about something.
@EtiennedeMartel there's a process : VENDOR_ -> EXT_ -> ARB_ -> core
@thecoshman The old question of whether it's better to cooperate or compete. In different ways, both are healthy.
21:43
@EtiennedeMartel That's what happens once in a while.
I don't think anyone has anything against OpenGL. It's just a matter of what is and what is not. For example, I can only deploy the OGL sparse texture GI solution on Nvidia 4.3 hardware and not AMD hardware. This is not production quality, I can't give people a game and say, FUCK YOU AMD PEOPLE.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a long while.
@JerryCoffin indeed
@EtiennedeMartel That's a process of thorough review
@EtiennedeMartel What matters is hardware support anyway, so it isn't very relevant.
21:43
Whereas, we've been able to do the advanced stuff with DX since 2011.
@DomagojPandža Would that be OpenGL's fault or AMD's?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah.
@Rapptz AMD obviously
@Rapptz When in doubt, blame whatever @Bartek likes.
6
@Rapptz It's not part of the core.
21:44
@Rapptz AMDs, but people are buying AMD hardware, so you're stuck with it.
It is very important to have a consistent and powerful standard feature set.
If somebody is buying AMD hardware it's their own fault
Lol
Yeah, and then it's their fault they keep their money from you. :3c
@BartekBanachewicz I have an AMD GPU.
21:45
Oh, god. I have 2x HD6990 on my right hand side which owned the shit out of the 590s. And I want to smack you over the head with both of them.
@ThePhD Intel is the biggest GPU supplier right now anyway
Also, now I have 2x 690s. There's no fan boy stuff here.
Just what was better at the time.
@DomagojPandža Neither ATI/AMD nor nVidia has ever conformed perfectly with almost any standard. The big difference seems to be that when they fail to comply with OGL, the blame gets aimed at OGL. When the fail t comply with DX, programmers take for granted that they just have to work around it as well as they can, and hope a newer driver will reduce or eliminate the problem.
@BartekBanachewicz What happened to the desire for portability?
If Intel was the only option, developments would slow down until a new competitor rises up to get them moving again. Just trying to push the latest and greatest to gamers is not going to keep them developing at the rate they are
21:46
@JerryCoffin Sounds like the ARB might have an image problem.
@JerryCoffin True, but still for production - we need something consistent, at least to a degree.
So, a huge portion of the games industry is stuck living with 20-30 years of retarded decisions from these two giant companies that fail to meet deadlines, produced massive piles of crap software, and made decisions that completely forced everyone to take huge amounts of workarounds to get any semblance of similar performance and features between them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would rather make it portable on my oven than AMD card
@ShotgunNinja Legacy, eh?
@JerryCoffin And don't forget the fact support with unpredictable performance isn't a big step over no support.
21:46
@BartekBanachewicz That statement reeks of fanboyism.
@EtiennedeMartel This.
@EtiennedeMartel I think most of what it has is small enough market share that it's never been taken as really dictating how things must be.
I don't care if the GPU is created by Your Mum Incorporated., if it owns, it owns. I don't get damn fanboys.
I am not going to develop on hardware that can't even implement core features properly
@EtiennedeMartel More like cruft. I'm looking forward to mobile as one significant excuse to break free of all the legacy crap; the only problem is that no one seems to know how to implement mobile properly.
21:48
@ShotgunNinja ES q_q
I have nothing against AMD processing units, but they drivers suck balls.
@ShotgunNinja ES
@ThePhD Exactly.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Quite true as well, I'm afraid (and yes, that's been something of a problem with OGL -- at least originally, it tried to have a high enough level of abstraction that wildly differing levels of quality/performance could all officially conform).
@BartekBanachewicz And again.
@ShotgunNinja ES is ok. Especially 3.x
21:48
The only problem I have with OpenGL is that it is 2-3 years behind constantly.
ES 1.0 was such a nightmare.
;~;
Ell
Ell
Is it behind now?
If 4.3 gets out soon, it won't be.
It's just a Dx fanboy rant
@DomagojPandža 4.3 got out a few months ago
21:49
@BartekBanachewicz Pot, meet kettle.
But compute shaders have been an integral part of our work. They're just getting here with OGL.
@DomagojPandža cough
I just wish that someone would take the architectural changes from OpenGL ES 3.x and incorporate the power of some of the GL/D3D extensions into them to make a desktop-capable OpenGL that didn't suck to use.
@JerryCoffin One thing I think that DC has done well, is being rather strict with 'these are the features of the new version, meet them or don't'
@DomagojPandža It certainly was at one point -- but hasn't been for a while now (in fact, at times recently, it's been clearly ahead).
21:49
I wish I had some popcorn.
@thecoshman What about Marvel?
LET'S RANT HOW OPENGL IS BEHIND 2-3 YEARS AGO AND USE VERSIONS FROM 2-3 YEARS AGO
I've always been considerig wrapping up OpenGL into something like D3D
^ that's the spirit
@BartekBanachewicz Cry me a river.
21:50
Oh wait, that's what I'm doing now. :3
@R.MartinhoFernandes I assume you are talking about something other then comics
@thecoshman As I said above, support with unpredictable performance isn't a great step above no support (and yes, DX has suffered from this too, except programmers just bite the bullet and work around it).
@thecoshman That's the power of market share.
@BartekBanachewicz I've only seen 4.3 beta drivers for Nvidia and no 4.3 drivers at all from AMD. It's not out.
A uniform interface that's so lovely and dovely and nice. <3
21:50
I don't care there are papers saying it is, it is not.
@DomagojPandža what.
oh my breakpoint hit!
@JerryCoffin it's also the risk
@DomagojPandža you're such a hypocrite
@MooingDuck You were waiting all this time for a breakpoint?
Ell
Ell
21:51
Is linux kernel technically superior to windows kernel?
@thecoshman You wrote "DC". Was just cracking a silly joke.
@Ell Oh for the love of god, let's not...
There is no damn support.
NO. SUPPORT.
I'm fed up with this already
21:51
NO.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ahh :P
END OF STORY.
Ell
Ell
C'mon let's switch topics!
Will the hurd ever be finished?
21:52
Hurd?
Alright, both of you, eat a garbage truck.
... Turd? :D
@thecoshman I'm not at all sure there's really a lot of risk. At least in quite a few cases, it's apparent that MS sat down with ATI/AMD and nVidia, and just standardized what they said they could do.
@ThePhD The GNU kernel.
1 hour ago, by Mooing Duck
my program crashed about half an hour ago while I was debugging it, and I told it to go to that place in code, but it's still busy trying to show the debugger output, and hasn't actually gone to that place in code or shown callstacks or anything.
21:52
@DomagojPandža Hey, so what if I didn't buy Shurelya's Reverie?
@Ell lol, it's been 25 years and not even a test release yet
@ShotgunNinja then you suck. SR <3
@ThePhD It's been in the works ever since the Linux kernel was out (maybe even before)
@R.MartinhoFernandes And it just never got done?
Ell
Ell
@thecoshman So... yes? :3 ;)
21:53
@ThePhD It's being worked on. Still.
@JerryCoffin well, I was more getting at when you are no longer having to fight to be the best, when you are the only option
@Ell Better question -- will it ever really be started? A: no.
@BartekBanachewicz I bought Philo's, I just have other plans for my build before I get Shurelya's. I usually get it after Baron.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Soon (TM)
Ell
Ell
You can get debian hurd
21:53
I am truly curious. What do you guys consider as "out"? A specification free to be implemented by vendors? Or that vendors are actually supporting it?
@ThePhD It's from GNU! Stop swearing.
@DomagojPandža wtf "out"
@DomagojPandža Is C++11 out?
@R.MartinhoFernandes FREEEDOOOM!
oh, you mean, as in "released"?
21:53
@R.MartinhoFernandes It was being argued about for a decade before Linux was started.
(in 50 years).
@DomagojPandža published.
it's released the moment you can use features from it in your code to actually benefit you.
@DeadMG Precisely.
that would effectively mean vendor support.
21:54
And 4.3 doesn't exist.
In that regard.
if there's no vendor support then a Standard is nothing but a dream.
@DeadMG From all vendors?
user142019
Does implicit multiplication take precendence over explicit multiplication? As in 2÷3(1-2) versus 2÷3×(1-2) respectively.
@JerryCoffin argues? I thought it just never got the momentum (for what ever reason)
21:54
and you can't code against a dream.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you sure? At one point, they officially stated that they'd dropped even claiming to work on it.
It isn't a dream.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not necessarily. It depends on the specifics of the situation. I wouldn't even argue that all features are required, I think they can be released independently sometimes- see what's happened with C++11 feature conformance.
Yes, precisely. What's so hard to understand that you can't use something.
The hardware I bought four months before it was released supports it.
21:55
@Zoidberg no, they are exactly the same
user142019
@thecoshman oh okay. :L
@DomagojPandža What did I say about eating a garbage truck?
@EtiennedeMartel :$
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know nothing of that. I was referring to the more general question.
@Zoidberg look at it, they give you the same value
21:55
This discussion is going nowhere.
@DeadMG Ok, then according to your definition it is already released.
@EtiennedeMartel Wanna help me with my Map format?
And it's kinda wrecking the mood in the room.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's fine by me. I never argued otherwise.
@ThePhD Oh dear.
Shoot.
21:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you have drivers that can cash in the checks your hardware is writing?
@ThePhD Map format: A Lua script. done.
@DeadMG Sure. Wasn't arguing with you either.
@DomagojPandža Yes.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Great. That's why I like talking to you.
@DeadMG what? that over a year after a finalised spec, there are still compilers working on fully supporting it IIRC?
@R.MartinhoFernandes 4.3 beta on Nvidia. And no 4.3 on AMD. So, "Yes"?
21:57
@thecoshman Yes, there were lots of arguments. The problem was pretty simple: it really was a case of design by committee. Current Linux is still far short of what people imagined they were going to stuff into Hurd, and still have a kernel that would be usable in a megabyte of RAM.
But enough of this, I came here to chill, not lose my hair.
2
I would not like to lose my hair.
@thecoshman No, that over a year before the finalised spec, every major compiler vendor had support for some features. Particularly move semantics were supported by all vendors very early.
@DomagojPandža This is like the meeting room of a high school anime club. No one cares about what anyone else thinks, and people are annoying and loud about their opinions and how everyone else is wrong.
some of the bigger features of C++11 I'll agree have yet to be "released" by my own definition
21:58
@JerryCoffin Well, there are Hurd-based distros around, so I assume they aren't shipping unmaintained code.
@DeadMG Frankly, I don't care what people are offering before an official spec is DONE. Sure it's nice to be able to test how these (almost) concrete ideas will be, but once the spec is released, it should be conformed to ASAP
@ShotgunNinja I don't have an opinion, basically. I'm just saying that Nvidia has beta drivers of something that's been published months ago and AMD is still trying to self-fellatio itself. I can't work with that. Even with my best wishes, I just can't.
It's not opinion, Duality doesn't work on my HD6990s with the sparse texture code path.
Ell
Ell
When you write drivers, how low level is it?
@DeadMG C++11 is just a spec, the spec is done and out the door. Every feature is C++11 supports is released. What you are waiting for is support. There is a difference.
@thecoshman I agree. But as of the moment the C++11 spec was released, there were already plenty of major features available.
Ell
Ell
21:59
it's ioctl isn't it? Is that sending integers to specific pci lanes and stuff? o.O
@DomagojPandža Autofellatio is rather difficult, but I applaud AMD for trying.

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