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19:01
@Ell nop
Ell
Ell
it seems like you ought to somehow. Wouldn't that be useful for DRM?
drm is crap
Ell
Ell
Yeah, but it just seems like it ought to be possible haha
Generally speaking I would expect a sane OS to already prevent processes reading outside from their memory.
That being said there are generally things in place to provide special memory that the OS will take care to scrub when it is reclaimed.
@BartekBanachewicz Steam works well enough
Ell
Ell
19:05
@LucDanton But there are system calls you can use to read the whole memory, I think. Like in cheatengine and the like
Presumably those require elevated rights. Otherwise, see 'sane' in 'sane OS'.
@LucDanton Right, but you can spawn any process with the right to read/write it's memory on Windows, I think.
That doesn't seem like a surprise. Typo?
@Borgleader In the sense of "the convenience offered by Steam is enough to make most people disregard the disadvantages of its DRM"
19:09
all I'm saying is that if you're writing CheatEngineX, you can absolutely launch a game with the right to read/write it's process memory.
@AndreiTita What disadvantages?
To spawn a process that has the right to read/write its memory I'd spawn any process. Otherwise it's not much of a process, no?
@Borgleader being fucking laggy for instance
Other DRM systems tend to crash or overall not work and be a pain in the ass... but steam?
@BartekBanachewicz Steam? Laggy? When?
@Borgleader uh. always
19:12
You have issues, it's never laggy for me.
Ell
Ell
Nor I
don't embed your shit, deposit it into the toilet
2
@ScottW Yes. If you have a C++ compiler for it, you can do en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/io/c/fopen
well, if you have a file to open that is...
@ScottW It's not guaranteed to be present in a standalone implementation, no. That said, the embedded systems I've dealt with that have at least some reasonable semblance of a file system did include it.
19:27
@Ell also keep paging in mind
Wait, "Spore Creepy and Cute Parts Pack" is on Amazon for $73.98? And they only have one? amazon.com/Spore-Creepy-Cute-Parts-Pack-Mac/dp/B001GQEMW4/…
...and the seller is goodwill...?
Someone here says Visual Basic is good.
chaos
@Doorknob "Here"?
But also sells digital downloads of Spore + all expansions for $7.49 total. Amazon pricing is wierd.
@EtiennedeMartel Marcus Beer from Gametrailers ranted on that game.
19:34
@Borgleader It really reinforces my idea that bad games are no accident.
In case you want to watch said video
Apparently there were like 4 devs on that game
@MooingDuck FWIW I've ordered more often on amazon.co.uk than amazon.fr
Two: Gearbox and TimeGate. Plus Sega as a publisher.
What's "Export"?
@Jeffrey Where's "Export"?
19:45
ask the bin
That a different room?
Xeo
Xeo
lol
it's called the Bin, it's not gonna be a happy fun place
19:54
Heh, dat's okay. Can you let me in?
@Jeffrey export was (mostly theoretically) separate compilation for templates -- i.e., the ability to put a template in a .cpp file instead of a header like you (mostly) need to do with current implementations. That leads to difference in things like name lookup that are hard to implement, but it's most of the basic idea.
@DeadMG Fucking hell, dude.
When I say "mostly theoretical", I mean only one compiler ever implemented it, and that implementation was little more than a proof of concept. It worked poorly enough that almost nobody ever used it enough to notice.
@MilesAlden I could... but why would you want to go there?
Hell man I don't know. Just trying to get some help compiling a cpp command line binary to arm (ios)
19:58
there's nobody in the Bin.
@JerryCoffin, thanks.
All my command line compilation settings give me like a billion errors.
@DeadMG is it lonely in there?
ha. I suppose I could do a new 1uestion. Thought this would be easier.
20:00
this place is the Lounge, for lounging.
ahh. Okay, gotcha.
sry for the trbl.
lol
20:20
and goodbye
can i do that with a single + operatorator overloading
i really cannot solve this question
in bin, 1 min ago, by mert metin
guys hello
(Go there and look right bellow that message)
@EtiennedeMartel oops
@mertmetin If it involves a wall of text, try posting it on SO.
No, we can't.
20:22
its a pdf
oke i c/p
no, don't do that.
just go ask a question on stack overflow.
hmz
they could not find a solution
pff
@mertmetin who?
@mertmetin also, when you make the SO question, use a working link to the PDF, we can't see in your dropbox
@DeadMG Would you please stop?
It's pretty obvious Duck wants to help, so stop binning shit.
If you don't want to see his question, plonk him.
20:24
@JerryCoffin I just read you posts about patens, very interesting. Do you work in that area?
Why is there a new line after each word?
dont know
@EtiennedeMartel no, I'm definitely for him making an SO question, and not bothing the lounge :/ It doesn't belong here
this is the main that my instructor gave me
@MooingDuck I literally had my finger on the bin button before reading Etienne telling me to stop, and then you telling me to go.
20:25
what he wans me to write an operator overloading + function
@MooingDuck (Nooo, now the puppy will keep binning)
@DeadMG I believe it, you took longer than normal to bin that one
@EtiennedeMartel he should
duck please accept my invite
Well, well.
It appears I'm wrong here.
@bamboon Yes, more or less.
20:29
@bamboon linky?
¬_¬ would really like a shnifter of rum right about now
@bamboon How can he compare software patents with non-software patents... -.-"
Oi!
So using Poco's TextIterator with UTF8Encodig has worked out fine in the end.
I have to say
I think that I disagree with you, Jerry.
20:40
@DeadMG Most programmers do.
undoubtedly
firstly, I'd like to suggest that the "guild system" wouldn't really be so bad right now.
it's pretty unlikely that Microsoft will lose their source code to anything they choose to keep secret.
guild system?
and it's also pretty unlikely that they'll go around murdering people for their internal secrets.
ah, screw it. I don't want to get into this
at least, any more than right now.
but secondly
20:42
@DeadMG Sounds like you've never studied their history.
I'd argue that the issue is more, to me, about proportionality.
the value to society of any given patent is only what it gained from having that invention before someone else could come up with it.
and I also object to patents where the patent holder does not (at least commercially) licence it.
a patent should be rewarding an inventor for their work, not giving them a monopoly.
it rewards them by giving them protection of their monopoly
which is completely disproportionate in many cases
@DeadMG ...provided that somebody else chose to develop it, publish it (which, in pre-patent days, they almost never did, especially when they knew they could be murdered for even trying).
I can see the logic behind drugs patents, it lets the companies make secure money, which gives them a reason to spend all the money in the firs place. But it just results in drugs being stupidly expensive to the end user. I am sure it would be better if all drug research was open by law.
20:46
@JerryCoffin For one, it would be quite impossible to prevent someone else from spreading their work online, even if you wanted to.
@DeadMG Under the current system, that's virtually always the case.
Well, better for the plebs who need the drugs
@JerryCoffin Which is why it's so problematic.
Microsoft's patent on implementing C++ exception handling with SEH or whatever it is, doesn't benefit anybody.
crap damn it! you got me sucked in
Microsoft don't sell it, so they don't make any money on it
and nobody else can use that technique
20:47
@DeadMG No, I mean patent holders are virtually always willing (happy) to license their patents.
for disproportionate sums
@DeadMG Have you actually contacted Microsoft about licensing it? I'd be quite surprised if Microsoft was unwilling to license it.
well... actually, no, I haven't
but what do you think the probability is that they would be willing to licence it in a substantial way, to their native-code-generating competition, for a cost that reflects how much it cost them to produce?
@DeadMG didn't Borland licensed it?
I've got nothing against patent holders receiving remuneration for the patents they hold, but it should be strictly limited and proportionate to their actual costs
20:54
@DeadMG I doubt they could even say how much it cost them to produce. If I had to guess, I'd say they'd probably negotiate a deal that had some fixed minimum price, then a percentage of sales (probably in the 0.5-1% range) up to some fixed maximum total.
@DeadMG So, for example, if I think up some idea while I'm in the shower (no matter how great it is, how many lives it saves, etc.) I should get essentially nothing in return, but if IBM spends a billion dollars reducing memory usage of something by 1% under one specific circumstance, they deserve a lot more in return for it?
This seems to simply reward inefficiency.
presumably, nobody would actually pay a billion dollars for such a thing.
nopuppy.
but the cost of thinking up some idea in the shower isn't really just about the fact that nobody was paying you a salary for that time
I mean, you have costs to live
> The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying.
Mr. Carmack said that.
but also logically
you have a fixed lifespan, and there's a certain cap on how much it would cost you to spend the entire rest of your life sitting in the shower trying to think of new ideas.
20:59
@DeadMG But why should my cost of living have any effect on anything? Shouldn't my reward be proportional to the value of what I produced?
@JerryCoffin No.
rewards are irrelevant.
paying fees for a patent is not about rewarding the inventor
it is about making him able to create more inventions.
@DeadMG So why should this idiotic radical pricing be restricted to patents? If somebody spends, say, $100 million producing a movie, why should they be allowed to keep charging people admission, even after they've made, say, ten times that much in profit?
because it's unique.
if you didn't make a film, then how long would society have to wait for somebody else to create that film?
@DeadMG Every valid patent is (by definition) unique.
@JerryCoffin Not in the same way.
the uniquity of implementing C++ exception handling on top of SEH is only that Microsoft thought of it first.
but if they didn't think of it, somebody else would have.
and secondly
I'm not even sure that I have that viewpoint that they should be permitted to keep charging admission in the first place.
21:04
@DeadMG Wrong -- it's about providing him/her with enough reward to make it more sensible for him/her to publish what they've done rather than keep it secret.
If you only pay basically enough to cover their costs of invention, in most cases they're likely to keep their idea a secret, and the benefit of that technique, algorithm, etc., becoming public isn't realized.
@Abyx Yes - that's why one of Delphi apps has logs with <Access Violation blah> entries :(
well I was thinking of more like a fixed percentage of the costs, like 150% or whatever.
not necessarily just 100%.
Debugging a VS plugin is a pain with ReSharper, because the debugger has to lead every fucking ReSharper DLL when starting the experimental instance.
but secondly, the main reason to be in favour of publishing is that when somebody else finds an invention, they'll also publish.
it's simply more efficient to share work
@DeadMG In a lot of cases, they'd still be better off keeping it secret -- and worse, even in the few cases where their profit potential is limited to 150%, they're likely to think it's worth a lot more than that anyway.
@DeadMG You really didn't pay much attention in history class, did you? Or did you skip them all completely?
21:07
well
@JerryCoffin I observed that the primary eras of peace and economic wealth came about when people co-operated rather than competed.
at the end of WW1, the Allies savaged Germany's economy to put themselves on top, and the result was WW2.
@DeadMG ...and what percentage of human history would you say those constituted?
not an awful lot, since it's not exactly always in people's nature to be efficient.
but societies and cultures can change for the better over time.
@DeadMG ...and therein lies the problem: even if your idea would be good if people would all follow it consistently, unless you're a complete idiot, you already know it's not how things are really going to happen.
it's funny you should say that
since over the last, say, ten thousand years, all historical trends are moving towards greater co-operation and larger groups of people acting together
@DeadMG Sure there's movement in that direction. But consider just on SO, and the amount of competition there is over a useless of things as badges and rep. No, not everybody competes, and even those who do generally do so fairly respectfully. There's still a lot more competition than cooperation though, and this is among people who it's safe to say are generally among the best educated and most cooperative in all of society.
21:16
on SO, then competition is co-operation.
Assuming that the rest of society is suddenly going to not only meet, but exceed that standard by a huge margin is just plain silly.
the best answers will go to the top, and that benefits everybody.
that guy who had the bottom-rated answer, he still benefits, even if it's not direct
@DeadMG Money is generally not part of the equation on SO, and money has the tendency to turn people into monsters.
that questioner and those people reading will use the best answer to do things with economic value, paying taxes and such, making the global economy stronger and reducing his living pressures.
I mean, sure, the effect of any given question and answer is probably minimal.
or possibly even the site as a whole.
but in general, competition on SO benefits society, and everyone participating is being co-operative by doing so
@DeadMG Surely -- they've worked very hard to put together a system in which people's competitive urges result in an overall result that's basically cooperative. But 1) it is quite a bit of work, 2) it would almost certainly be even harder if people lives and fortunes depended on it.
21:18
I admit, it's a lot of work
but you have to start somewhere
and even so, there's plenty of meta questions about purchasing rep
@MooingDuck Really?
for example, I would ban all universities and academic institutions for not publishing their work (and course materials) for free online, probably subsidised by advertising if not paid for by public money.
@EtiennedeMartel a few, yeah
@DeadMG Yes -- and part of that is rewarding people based on the perceived value of their contribution, not necessarily on the work that went into it. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother with rep at all -- we'd just track who'd typed the most characters.
21:20
@MooingDuck Well, damn. Let's hope SO does not go freemium.
-38
Q: Is there a way to buy SO reputation?

vikas devdeIs there a feature by which we can buy reputation on SO (e.g 100 rep for $1)?, or a bot by which we can hack and increase our reputation?

@JerryCoffin In economic terms, we don't reward them at all.
except by the mutual social benefit, obviously.
everybody here does work of economic value, but receives nothing for it
the same is true of the people who write Boost, and such.
@DeadMG Perhaps not directly -- but I'd almost bet at least a few people post answers in the hope of its showing as a positive influence on their Carreers profile.
@JerryCoffin Perhaps. But real-world inventors can claim reputational rewards too.
@DeadMG To an extent, yes. There's a big difference in the level of investment involved though. 5 (or even 20) minutes writing an answer is a small enough investment that many people can (and will) afford to do it with little or no hope of real reward. Financing large teams of people work for years at a time (knowing up-front that 9 out of 10 will probably fail) would be impossible to justify without much larger rewards.
21:28
@JerryCoffin If you're a corporation and you need to fund ten teams for years to get an invention, then you can claim back a pretty large sum of money from its users when that occurs.
@DeadMG And if you limit the reward to 150% of costs, and 9 out of 10 fail, guess what: it's still a (massively) losing proposition for them (unless you let them consider the other 9 as part of the cost of the one successful one). Bottom line: you know as well as I do that you've adopted an utterly indefensible position. If you were half as smart as you like to claim, you'd have realized long ago that you have no chance of winning on this point.
@JerryCoffin Of course I would let them consider the other nine.
bool operator== (const Integer& aValue)
{
    bool result = true;
    mIntValue == aValue.mIntValue ? result : result = false;
    return result;
}
I'm surprised at how common this is
wtf, he mutates in his comparison operator?
@DeadMG At which point, you're just rewarding stupidity and inefficiency. Also consider what happens in real life: as soon as I get one good idea, I buy up dozens of losing nonsense, and claim all those as part of the costs of my one, to inflate its value.
21:33
bool result?
Ell
Ell
le fuck, I'm going to fail my a levels
@Pubby It does take advantage of NRVO, I guess...
@JerryCoffin That's just fraud. Also, since you just stated that ten teams was required, how is it stupid or inefficient to finance them?
besides, there's no law forcing anyone to pay the inventor anything
claiming for the other nine teams would only work (to start with) if you found something of sufficient value, and that's no different from now.
@Ell I did.
The inventor can sue technically. So long as he didn't give away rights to it.
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG how did you get into uni? o.O
21:36
@Ell I had a backup offer.
@DeadMG It's stupid and inefficient, because they have all the possible motivation to continue paying for other teams to continue to waste money, even after it's obvious they're never going to work.
@JerryCoffin It's going to be hard to get money for those other teams if you can't show a judge it was necessary when somebody contends the amount you've set.
@DeadMG Oh, that's brilliant: putting judges in charge of how companies are run, and deciding whether a particular risk was legitimate or not. That's been tried before, and it ended in one place: virtually no risk was justified, and all innovation stagnated.
I have been considering that judges are not sufficiently qualified to perform such a task
or indeed, several other tasks.
Aaarghhh judges/lawyers! Whatever it is , it's dead.
21:41
at least
I feel that, in principle, it is the purpose of a judge to decide such things and ensure that the law is fair and proportionate
but their lack of specific technical knowledge makes them ill-suited to actually doing this in many cases.
perhaps I should consider juries of ex-developers or some such scheme
@DeadMG maybe this is why you uni sucked?
The reality is that the model your espousing (cost + some "reasonable" profit margin) has been used in quite a few government projects for a long time. The US government (for only one example) has used it for some types of projects for decades. The GAO (General Accounting Office) has cited it repeatedly for leading almost inevitably to fraud, waste, and abuse. It's so common that such contractors are required to have "FWA" offices specifically to report it.
@thecoshman Nah, they were still in the top 10 in the UK for CS.
@DeadMG where was it?
not sure if want to name.
21:47
why not?
..and the reality is that courts screw up almost everything. Courts, lawyers, judges, juries. Apart from the arguments above, I have had three digital call handlers on the phone today re. my personal injury. Lawyers are worse than SQL/PHP developers. If you want to pay $10 for each aspirin tablet, get the legal profession involved.
Lol, a friend of mine says he will get more rep by making more accounts under a proxy
He's so convinced and doesn't believe anything I tell him :P
Even with those FWA offices, regulations to protect whistle blowers, rewards for problems reported, etc., it's still a massive problem. Spreading this idea to the economy in general falls right in there with "well, if we just cut off their arms and legs after they're born, that'll prevent nearly all crime!"
hmm
the US in general does seem to have a really big cultural problem with maximising immediate personal gain instead of considering the long-term efficiency of their actions
Ell
Ell
I think it's difficult to force people to be considerate to people when they will die before they even see it do good
21:51
@DeadMG You think this doesn't happen in the UK? If so, you're just plain wrong.
@DeadMG you know, the English language has a nice word for that 'selfish'
no, I certainly don't think that
but I do think that the US is ... more extreme.
In economics, the tragedy of the commons is the depletion of a shared resource by individuals, acting independently and rationally according to each one's self-interest, despite their understanding that depleting the common resource is contrary to the group's long-term best interests. In 1968, ecologist Garrett Hardin explored this social dilemma in "The Tragedy of the Commons", published in the journal Science. Theories and examples Central to Hardin's article is an example (first sketched in an 1833 pamphlet by William Forster Lloyd) involving medieval land tenure in Europe, of herder...
Just sayin'
I mean
people have a really hard time understanding socialism. They want to have health care, bin collection, street cleaning etc, but ain't willing to pay squat for anything they feel they will not use
21:52
they can't even get their shit together and have a decent healthcare system
anyways, I'm digressing
@DeadMG see above
Well, people make a pretty penny off Healthcare in the U.S.
s/of/off/
Glorious paychecks are had at the expense of individual health
they do in the UK, and Ireland too
21:54
nowhere near as much, though.
we expend about half the proportion of GDP that the US does on healthcare.
they are all run as business, which to me makes no sense. Hospitals are there to make people better, not money! Sure you need to prevent it blowing money on gold plating the china, but come on people!
so unless our living standards/life expectancy/whatever were much lower, we must be substantially more efficient.
as relatively efficient as the system may be, it is still a joke
@thecoshman "But medical supplies and equipment are expensive", is what they say.
That and the debt Medical Students get is ridiculous.
You spent years and years in school.
@thecoshman The problem, as far as I can tell, is local people.
21:55
@ThePhD bull shit! Medical supplies and equipment are marked up is what they are! not expensive at all
If it's a top-notch school, you're drowning in debt.
they cry too hard about closing their local A&E, even when it's not effective
much like they cry too hard about their precious landscape when we need it for renewable energy
@thecoshman Again, thats' what they say. I'm not saying it's true - in many cases, it hardly is.
@DeadMG That's only because we pay so much less for things like food and housing that we can afford to! :-)
@JerryCoffin Tell that to your homeless! :-)
21:57
I am still not sure if I like the Irish healthcare system. In order to go the GP, you have to pay 50 euro, though not if you get sent on to hospital. I think it is a good deterrent for people wasting time
@JerryCoffin you 'mercan right?
in the UK, our doctors complain that people don't visit them enough, and are too concerned about wasting their time
@DeadMG your mum work is a doctors place as well doesn't she?
no
none of my family have ever worked in healthcare
oh... where did I get that from?
@DeadMG Okay. But given that fewer than 1% of Americans are homeless, and about 1.7% of UK residents are, I'd have figured that would be a subject you'd try to avoid (at least if you knew what you were talking about).
21:59
@thecoshman Your ass.
welp, my mum does, and all I get from her is that the place is constantly swamped
@thecoshman 'fraid so.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, explains why it's a a bit saw
@JerryCoffin I agree. The government should simply do the work itself and fuck contractors.
@JerryCoffin Where did you find those figures?

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