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13:00
the magic number is 96 hours: this is how long it takes for the specific immune system to power up
good that we have a bio tech in here xD
after that it should take care of any infection within a very short stretch of time (couple of hours). If it’s not better by then, start to worry.
@KonradRudolph ohh i see. that's the time it starts to produce antibodies?
Aaaaand science comes in to beat my anecdote over the head. Well, at least my anecdote was pretty close.
Fuck science! No, wait, I mean pointers.
13:03
@JohannesSchaub-litb More or less, yes … although I think most of the time isn’t spent producing antibodies, but rather waiting whether it blows over, since the adaptive immune system is very energy-consuming and the body only want to expend this much energy if really necessary
@KeithLayne What if pointers are science?
win-win?
Xeo
Xeo
@JohannesSchaub-litb Hello auto_ptr? :P
@KonradRudolph ohh i see. seems like a clever mechanism there
insanely clever. The adaptive immune system is, in my opinion, the best-designed mechanism that evolution has produced
13:04
hmm i see
the whole hypermutation mechanism to produce highly specific antibodies is just so darn “intelligent”
Yes. It's almost as if it were designed
folks try years to find cures for certain viruses and then they discover people that are immune against them by having particular kinds of antibodies. it's weird
By an extremely unintelligent and natural process
13:06
heard it in the news today how they found people that are immune by nature against canine madness
@Xeo I read that in Jack White's voice.
@StackedCrooked How fitting, since I’m currently listening to The Raconteurs, full blast
one of the most skilled musicians currently
Interesting. Should check that out.
so Hypermutation is like nature saying "ah see how well evolution worked, now let's simulate it"?
@JohannesSchaub-litb i dunno, but we have a lot of experience coded in gedes, earlier sucessful mutations ready to go, so to speak, when ze time is right
13:12
My monitor is still "Preparing for dispatch" :(
so, like, small birds can mutate astoundingly fast (because they done that before)
@KonradRudolph i have only one album
u should listen to the Black Keys
:-)
@JohannesSchaub-litb Totally, just much, much, faster – and with negative control built in, otherwise most antibodies would attack their own body
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Pff, they’re on YouTube
^ awesome live concert
what? what is that?
13:15
@KonradRudolph if I weren't at work, there's a pretty reasonable chance I'd be doing the same.
@SamDeHaan I’m at work, too. Noise-cancelling headphones.
@KonradRudolph Ah. Forgot my nice headphones at home, sadly.
@KonradRudolph Bose?
@Cheersandhth.-Alf No, their sound sucks, no treble just bass
Denon
oh, i'm listening on a cheap pair of Denon right now
their plugs suck
13:20
@KonradRudolph I was so stupid to buy open headphones. Now I have to make sure my music is silent enough in order to avoid disturbing my colleages.
other than that, fine :-)
@StackedCrooked Yes, I made sure to buy closed headphones. actually, with my list of criteria the list of possible models was surprisingly small
Essentially I had to choose between the Denons I have now, a single Sennheiser model, and the Bowers & Wilkins headphones (which were awesome, but too tight for my head shape)
Does it have active noise-cancelling? I'd like to try those.
@StackedCrooked The B&W model? No. But their sound is impeccable, and they sit very closely on your ears so they seal you off quite effectively, and as a consequence their experience is actually better than with those noise-cancelling headphones that I tried
@KonradRudolph it plays nicely, but 2 hours (or up to 4) estimated for the download... :-( Who on Earth places giant videos like that on YouTube?
13:24
It was also a bit more expensive, but I’d have stomached that
@Cheersandhth.-Alf uh …? Just stream it
oh, now it's down to 1 hour
yes, it plays OK
but i thought i'd save it :-)
@KonradRudolph I was considering these. But it makes sense that the noise cancellation might negatively affect quality.
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Good idea. What are you using for download? youtube-dl?
it's just called "download helper", firefox extension
very nice
I use that too.
13:27
@StackedCrooked Their sound is OK but they have sharp parts inside the ear piece which dig into my ears
=> what the fuck!?
and you cannot use them with active noise cancellation switched off
which means: no battery, no sound
sucks
Perhaps I'm better off with decent isolation.
I'd imagine so
I'm feeling sceptical about noise-cancellation. Even though I'd like to try it.
13:30
ideally, you would be able to try them out for like a week
Ideally I'd like to try them for 5 years :)
I think that's called stealing :P
I mean getting a refund.
I'm tempted to get my self a bluetooth headset
Not sure what the quality on them is like though...plus I will probably loose them if they are not attached to the computer
@thecoshman here, for anything bought online, you can get a refund within 14 days, no matter what. No questions asked.
13:33
UK has same similar time frame
and usually you have at least 6 month to return faulty goods, though some things you get longer, some less
@thecoshman That’s what I did, I ordered three headphones (see above), tested them, sent two back
IMHO, that’s the only viable way of buying headphones – you have to test them
I have 2 year warranty on the shoes I bought a few weeks back. Now I notice that one of the seems is tearing. I wonder if I should bring them back.
where from?
@KonradRudolph why do viruses exist at all?
if the retailer doesn’t expect and accomodate this, they are stupid and wrong
13:35
@StackedCrooked if it's in warranty, yes
they seem like a useless thing
@JohannesSchaub-litb Uhm? You mean, why they’re not wiped out, or how they originally appeared?
@JohannesSchaub-litb what the hell sort of question is that?
@JohannesSchaub-litb Why does the universe exist at all? :P
i mean why have they originally appeared
13:36
@JohannesSchaub-litb cause they can
their existence makes no sense to me
@JohannesSchaub-litb computer or organic virus?
@JohannesSchaub-litb Well, useless to who? How are humans useful to anybody but themselves?
there is no "natural selection" for viruses that I can see
@JohannesSchaub-litb You are looking for an intention behind a phenomenon. That's not a scientific way of thinking.
13:37
@JohannesSchaub-litb Wait, there is, absolutely
@JohannesSchaub-litb hey, of course there is
@StackedCrooked no i ask why are they useful to themselfs
at it's most primitive form, life was basically viruses
they are just someting that cause trouble to life, it seems.
@JohannesSchaub-litb A thing is useful to itself by continuing to exist. Either something continues to exist, or not. It’s a tautology
13:37
@thecoshman less, i think :-)
some of them evolved to form more complex life, some found they could exist perfectly well as a virus
@thecoshman Except that it was the other way round – viruses are stripped-down genomes
(or genome fragments)
@KonradRudolph maybe that's the way with legislation also
oh ha ha
13:39
for the same reason that not every creature has evolved in a human, there are gapes they can take advantage off
when originally there were no viruses, and then a first virus appeared and killed their owner. it should have been a bad signal to evolution and the virus should not have been spread
@JohannesSchaub-litb a bad signal to what?
¬_¬ you need to go back and understand how evolution works
there is no guy sitting there directing it
@JohannesSchaub-litb The first viruses “appeared” because some single-celled organisms lost part of their genetic material but continued spreading by parasitising other organisms
if there is a guy at all, he's long since forgotten to clean up the bottle of goop he spilled nearly 4 billion years ago
13:40
… and in subsequent (millions of) generations these viruses lost more and more genetic material but were still able to hitch a ride on other organisms
and for every virus particule existing today, billions and billions lost more genetic material, which made them inviable, so they didn’t stick around
@thecoshman i quite liked David Brin's "uplift" series. the idea that elsewhere in the galaxy, most breeds of intelligents are the result of directed evolution. so they're indentured to their "uplifters" he he
also, very few parasitic organism actively aim to kill of their hosts, that's just stupid. A lot of them do kill of the host, but it's usually a side affect
viruses are essentially just genetic garbage, wrapped in a protein coat, but still intact enough not to perish immediately, and (by sheer necessity) evolving elaborate attach mechanisms
@thecoshman none do ;)
13:42
we could do that with dogs and chimps and dolphins, i think
@Cheersandhth.-Alf One of the most awesome sci-fi stories ever
sheep dogs are pretty smart anyway
is it not possible to look at their genoms, and say "ahh, this virus will cause that pain when you are infected" ?
I sooo hope that we can one day uplift dolphins
@KonradRudolph as in lack concious thought do you mean?
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I do like the idea of trying to bread a race of supper smart primates
13:43
@thecoshman Well, that too. ;-) But even without that, any virus which kills its host too quickly stops existing
In fact, I know people who try to make ebola more virulent so that it destroys its host too quickly, which could stop ebola spread
so it seems to me that viruses that are "no-ops" to their owner have a much greater chance to spread
why are their such viruses that are no no-ops -.-
@KonradRudolph indeed, but I am sure there are some viruses who's spreading mechanism works by killing the host so carrion feeders it infected flesh thus spread the virus
@KonradRudolph but how will that get rid of the slow-bola?
@JohannesSchaub-litb Actually, more than no-ops: viruses can actively help their host. Only in this case we don’t call them viruses any more
@thecoshman It outcompetes slowbola
@thecoshman point taken
13:45
@JohannesSchaub-litb if you wanna focus on necessary imperfection, check out Turing's original ideas about necessity of lying for intelligence. he proved it mathematically.
@KonradRudolph but it would have to spread well enough to infect everything that slow-bola has infected, so it can kill it off
@Cheersandhth.-Alf gorillas can lie :D
what's an example of a "virus" that helps its host
@thecoshman I’m unclear how they would actually use it in practice but I’m assuming topically, and (obviously) before it’s spreading to humans
13:46
@JohannesSchaub-litb we use viruses as vectors for gene modification (genemod treatment)
this may kill off local ebola populations until there are few enough to eradicate it
@JohannesSchaub-litb Sorry, pass
@Cheersandhth.-Alf That hardly counts here, does it? Also, those give you cancer :D
WHO to the rescue!
@JohannesSchaub-litb But excellent question for biology.SE
13:47
perhaps there's a stupid nerd who has written our world with C++ and who thought it would be fun to introduces viruses
lol
and if you guys ever see 'slow-bola' in a publication, I want you to help shout loud and clear that I coined it right here!
but viruses have had an important role in the evolution of other species
@JohannesSchaub-litb damn php programmers
@JohannesSchaub-litb And then C++ was written in the world written in C++? Sounds like building Minecraft in Minecraft.
for instance, the human genome is littered with genetic material imported from viruses
I don’t know how much of that is actively expressed though. Most of it on the contrary is actively supppressed by the body, otherwise we’d have problems
13:49
The Polydnaviruses (), (PDV) are a family of insect viruses that contain two genera: Ichnoviruses (IV) and Bracoviruses (BV). The ichnoviruses occur in ichneumonid wasps species and bracoviruses in braconid wasps. The genome of the virus is composed of multiple segments of double-stranded, superhelical DNA packaged in capsid proteins and a double layer (IV) or single layer (BV) envelope. Little or no sequence homology exists between BV and IV, suggesting that the two genera evolved independently. Biology These viruses are part of a unique biological system consisting of an endopara...
there is the lovely idea that at some stage we will be able to simulate the universe, at which point the only logical conclusion is that we out selves are just a simulation.
Damn probability denying my existence
@thecoshman that's philosophy. in practice, it's non-testable hypothesis.
@thecoshman This may be happening. The alternative, and actually very compelling, hypothesis is that simulating a universe, even imprecisely, is much too computationally intensive and quite useless
13:51
@Cheersandhth.-Alf unless some one can prove he awoke from the simulation
the idea is a nice tool though. one can think about e.g. running the sim in reverse, or with slices in random order.
@thecoshman He can't.
How do you distinguish that from madness?
@Tocs Yep. Awesome.
@thecoshman But what’s worse, we don’t need the simulation argument to show that we logically shouldn’t exist
@R.MartinhoFernandes bah! madness indeed :P
13:52
@KonradRudolph Just remember: Don't Panic.
The argument is known as the
A Boltzmann brain is a hypothesized self-aware entity which arises due to random fluctuations out of a state of chaos. The idea is named for the physicist Ludwig Boltzmann (1844–1906), who advanced an idea that the known universe arose as a random fluctuation, similar to a process through which Boltzmann brains might arise. Boltzmann brain paradox Boltzmann brains are often referred to in the context of the "Boltzmann brain paradox" or "problem". They have also been referred to as "Boltzmann babies". The concept arises from the need to explain why we observe such a large degree of or...
@KonradRudolph i think that's right. and i think that conclusion is simply a proof by contradiction, that the current ideas about universe etc. must be wrong somewhere.
and, unfortunately, it leads to a paradox
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Yes. Frustrating, isn’t it?
is it not mathematically impossible to simulate a universe like X in an universe like X?
@JohannesSchaub-litb No, not a priori
13:54
@JohannesSchaub-litb why not? I could create a Java VM with in a Java VM
Of course, if you subscribe to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics (and I do, since it’s the only explanation), then simulating a single universe is not enough
with a large enough initial VM, there is no end to how many VM's I can embed with each other
but it would be as fast as the other java VM
ok, teatime
but perhaps this is a bad argument. speed seems to be not important.
13:54
Right, everyone knows Java wasn't written for speed.
the speed of an internal VM is only really measurable to out side of the VM
hm, i think many-worlds is BS. but then i think so also about expansion (and the "expansion force"). and hence about big bang. and invisible black energy. and other non-testable and self-contradictory ideas that permeate current physics & cosmology.
@thecoshman and that's the problem.
as long as you ensure that there are no partial "halts" of the VM in the simulated world, ppl in it won't notice if the VM halts sometimes
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Why is many-worls BS? Remember "string theory" is at this point equally unprovable, along with countless other theories of Physics.
or even if so, ppl in it will say "no, you are crazy. the wave didn't stop moving!"
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is that for real?
i think the main conundrum, the main thing that cries out for a rational explanation, is the speed of stars at the fringe of spiral galaxies (they go too fast relative to current models)
@JohannesSchaub-litb But the people in it are only moving at the speed of the simulation, they are part of it. Simulation halts, the people halt.
13:57
it's been that way since late 1960's i think it was
@SamDeHaan no i mean if only part of the simulation halts
all this stuff about dark energy etc., is all about explaining that conundrum, when you get down to it
@JohannesSchaub-litb that would be a very poorly designed simulation.
@SamDeHaan It's 9 million with a strange accent.
13:57
@Cheersandhth.-Alf wrong. It's space that's expanding. Unless you're talking about something in particular (link?)
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see. And by that, I mean: ...huh?
@rubenvb exactly what do you think is "wrong". why are you mentioning that "it's space that's expanding". that sounds like a dumb repetition?
Great, I got Reversal on meta.
perhaps you're wondering about the "expansion force"
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Oh, I misread. You're talking about expansion models.
13:59
i'm wondering about this: If we would open a channel so that the area next to me is channeled to a different point. and then I stretch my arm into that channeled area
I want Reversal on SO, not meta.
what would it look at the different point? will one be able to look "inside" the arm?
@JohannesSchaub-litb Rocks fall. You die.
it was needed for the exponential expantion phase which in turn was needed to flatten out things
it is non-detectable
I think Physical theory is not advanced enough to describe the universe an sich.

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