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00:02
It also might be that c++ as a topic, might be better positioned to lending answer these types of questions. Since the language is so close to the hardware. Knowing these things to some degree better enables you to use the language effectively.
@Rick Doesn't seem to fit. None of use knows hardware at all.
Most of use don't even use hardware
I mean the CPU, RAM. Heap vs the stack, registry, gpu etc..
@Rick I ram the CPU into the socket, good and hard!
2
ouch
00:12
you might break those CPU pins
@Rick Serves 'em right for using puny little pins. A real man's CPU would use good, thick rods!
is it like a single thick rod or is it many thick rods
because that might affect performance
Alastair from overclock.net says : " I dont know about you. But being able to save the CPU after bending a pin sounds like a massive advantage. "But I pull out the CPU when I remove the cooler" I hear you say. Well firstly instead of just trying to yank off your cooler just twist it back and forth gently and it will eventually come free. And if you do happen to pull it out the socket any way well it doesnt damage anything."
00:32
My undergrad bent the pins on his ryzen. We stuck it under a scope and straightened them. Was no fun. Kid will be starting a PhD at CMU in CS.
@Rick Doesn't matter, as long as there's plenty of good, solid steel involved!
you say iron makes for healthy bones
could*
also, good steel has trace amounts of carbon
00:51
@Rick Yup. Not much (nearly always less than 1%), but it makes a huge difference in characteristics.
also, the quality of the steel is determined by the grain. The grain of the steel can be made smaller and more tightly packed by quenching, and then the grains can be made stiff by annealing. This is where the true strength of steel comes from
@Rick Technically, it's not quenching that makes the grain smaller. It's heating that leads to the smaller grain size. Quenching just chills the steel quickly enough that it becomes solid (stopping grain growth) before the grains can grow much.
@JerryCoffin I was really surprised when I discovered that the difference in carbon content between steel and cast iron is like 2%.
 
2 hours later…
03:40
@EtiennedeMartel if you want to reduce the carbon content of steel you can heat it with an open flame. The flame should steal the carbon molecule on the surface to produce CO2
Writing C++, and always trying generate python bindings
pro-tip, write a C api for cross language compatibility
swig can help a lot, no need to write so much binding interface
horrible to write C code to generate hundreds of class
the client facing part would be c-style, internally you can use your favorite language
agree
a mess is that not knowing need bindings to python
04:04
 
2 hours later…
05:52
Traffic jam is not always a bad thing, I mean, when the cars are moving at 30cm per second on this Sydney main artery, I am going to force the drivers to look at this gigantic ads I have put outside of the place I need to rent out.
You put an advertisement on a major real estate website, it will cost you $350, the support is not so great and you are getting about 350 views in it's life time.
You put out an A0 sized DIY advertisement at side of one of the busiest roads here (which the property is on), you pay $100 and you are getting 10,000+ people to look at it every week. That's 1 cent for every view, and the viewers are targeted, viewing time can be long (because traffic jam is severe around peak hours).
Canny kitty is canny!
06:23
Also got my laser distance meter in the mail today, this one's range is 100m. Waiting for one with longer range to arrive.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Yes, but you don't (normally) want to just steal carbon from the surface. You want to have a relatively uniform carbon content, or (fairly frequently) a "core" with a fairly low carbon content, and a fairly thin layer at the surface with a substantially higher carbon content.
@JerryCoffin I watered my house plants today. They seem to be happy about it! No signs of radiation damage.
 
4 hours later…
10:21
@Mgetz Have you ever seen luxurious resorts in desert? No trees, no big body of water and $1000+ a night.
Single room with en suite, 24 hours room services, all meals provided - if you are an indoor kind of person who don't like to go out, supermax sounds almost ideal :p
11:15
@TelKitty Yeah it looks more like this
@Mgetz Are you talking about the mountain view here? :p
@TelKitty nope
as the prison uses horizonless windows so they can't see that
Fresh steak at the door? >_<
I'm talking about the flat and grassy expanse
11:36
Yes, cow tend to live on flat and grassy land.
11:49
@Mysticial Reuters confirmed the building, and japanese fire code, didn't have sprinklers or internal hydrants
 
2 hours later…
14:07
You know what planet Mars is good for when people can finally travel there? Supermax prisons ... at least in the beginning.
@TelKitty make it australia 2.0 now with less deadly animals, but deadlier air
@TelKitty isn't that pretty much the premise of the Riddick chronicles? That they just dumped people on a world that was super inhospitable where they basically had to live underground?
14:44
@Mgetz ............. why... just why....
Now you can no longer put 100% of the blame on one crazy dude.
15:10
@Mysticial probably for the same reason Grenfell towers didn't
hola putas
@Mgetz That's one of those things that people like to shit on in the US. Regulations everywhere and they keep getting in the way of things. But they also prevent tragedies like this.
15:25
@Mysticial It's an eternal battle
People want to be free to do what they want, they also want to be safe using public infrastructure but wooooah, you want to put in rule saying that such infrastructure has to be safe? Respect my fwedom
@Mikhail They're (kinda) here: anandtech.com/show/14658/…
Still need the RGB ones.
@Mysticial in the UK the philosophy was to contain spread, not to necessarily put it out
15:46
@Mysticial I'm not sure you could run RGB sticks on anything but a testbench with those sizes without hitting thermals
@Mgetz Smaller process.
@Mysticial is that confirmed?
Most of the current 16GB sticks are 20nm. Like the Samsung B-die is 20nm. They've had 10nm for a while, just mostly on server-side.
Honestly one of my concerns as you get that small is going to be cosmic rays... they will be an issue at that size
But yes, RGB does contribute to thermals. My main box has poor airflow over the ram. So when I tried my RGB stick in them, they did get a little warm (60C+). So I swapped them back with my other rig which does have ram airflow.
15:48
I'd almost prefer ECC for that large of DIMMs
@Mysticial I had to turn of RGB all together while gaming, literally 6C difference
The B-die I have seems to not like tight timings and temps over 50C
What's your ram?
a corsair 32GB kit that we confirmed was B-die ages ago
8GBx4
stock speeds and timings?
How did you confirm it? With Typhoon?
it's rated for 3600 but I'm running 3200 at CL18
and yes Typhoon
wow...
15:51
That ram is supposed to handle CL16
3600cl16?
but it's not in the DOCP or XMP profiles
at 3200 it should
not 3600
based on the datasheets
3600 is definitely CL18
This is your X399?
x470
garbage mobo though... should have done more research first
Oh it's Zen. Yeah, Zen doesn't quite have the same capability of Intel in this aspect.
At least for frequency.
I'm less sure about timings.
15:53
yeah Zen2 apparently can handle 3600 just fine
but I'm not going to buy a new CPU when I have a 2700x
My 1800x with 3200c16 Hynix is boot-stable at 3200. Bench-stable at 3000. 1 week MTTF under load at 2933. Rock-stable at 2800.
with the latest AGESA updates I'm pretty rock stable at 3200C18
I wonder if I'll be able to throw 4 x 32GB in my 3950x. Maybe not immediately. But some reasonable wait afterward.
@Mysticial dunno, depends on mobo I'd guess
I'm actually suspecting that the 3950x is going to be a really interesting LN2 chip
particularly since the behavior under LN2 makes it desirable to "not overclock" and get insane clocks
@Mgetz My case, PSU, AIO, are all arriving either today or early next week. Not sure if I should start assembling it even though I won't have mobo+CPU until September. And no ram either.
But I'll have to at least open up the AIO to see the RGB connectors on it.
16:03
@Mysticial so did you see the GN breakdown on the 3900x under LN2 and the behavior they saw?
@Mgetz I haven't. Any takeaways?
@Mysticial don't overclock, just keep the chip cool. Like a GPU it will scale as much as it can withing power limit and Thermals.
basically the chip will self clock up to the brink of insanity... within limits
@Mgetz interesting.
So like if I increase TDP and turbo limit it'll just keep going up and stay within stable bounds?
Or does any OS automatically disable all power management like in Zen1.
Yeah, all core overclocks can be useful. But only when you really really need that sort of frequency lock. The chip can easily beat that overall if you let it even at stock settings
watch that on your lunch break
I don't have sound at work. So I'll do it when I get home.
16:09
it's not simple but the short answer is that it scales like GPU clocks now...
Either way GN's major takeaway was that case and cooling are likely to be the biggest limiting factors in most high end builds. The boards can supply insane power. The chip can use it... just it needs to stay cool.
@Mgetz I'll have to see. If any overclocking beyond base clock turns off power saving and PBO like in Zen 1, I'll probably just be running it at stock.
@Mysticial and you'll probably get better scores
GN got their best results running with PBO OFF
and just letting PB2 do the work
@CaptainGiraffe Be careful with that dihydrogen monoxide. Dangerous stuff!
16:24
Indeed, many malicious organisms would prosper if you supply that stuff.
All the 1337 trolls would die out without it.
@TelKitty Not only would proper. The very existence of internet trolls depends on it.
17:04
@EtiennedeMartel Thinking back on things, what I found surprising wasn't so much that the difference was so small, but the direction. I'd always heard that steel was iron with carbon added to make it stronger and tougher. That made it a little bit of a surprise when I found out that to make steel, you start by burning off (nearly) all the carbon, then you add back in a measured (and much smaller) amount of carbon. IOW, cast iron is really steel with so much carbon it's always brittle.
It might be brittle, but that heat retention though
@EtiennedeMartel Yup--I recently got a new stove with a cast iron griddle built in. Takes a few minutes to warm up properly, but once it's warmed up, it works beautifully (especially for pan cakes).
17:45
operator() can't be static right? Otherwise it's ambiguous with constructor calls?
Can't be static. Fuck...
FML
lol
Better quit your job now.
Because operator() can't be static.
And we all know what that means.
@Mysticial Why not use a function, then?
What's the difference between a static operator() and a static method?
@EtiennedeMartel 1st world problems :)
17:54
If you use unicode alternatives for '(' and ')' then you can define a function called "()".
3
Only trying to help :)
(not really)
18:09
@Mysticial Not entirely clear to me how you'd use it if it were static. Normally you have some_object(/*args*/), but if it's static, then there's no object on which to invoke it. Yes, invocation of some_type() would be ambiguous with constructing a temp object.
@JerryCoffin Some custom hash table where the template type is the hash function. And it's stateless.
So you do Hasher(key) directly on the type as opposed to an instance of the type.
@Mysticial Yeah, you're pretty much stuck with creating an instance of the type.
@JerryCoffin Or Hasher::hash(key).
So static function. Give up the (admittedly stupid) syntax sugar.
Hence #firstworldproblems.
@Mysticial That would work too, of course.
@JerryCoffin It's a TMP idiom I do a lot in my personal code. Not sure if there's a name for it.
18:15
@Mysticial I'm sure starving children in Africa still worry if their code isn't as pretty as it could be (even if the closest it ever comes to running is on a picture of a computer drawn on a black board).
Would be cool if you could pass functions as template parameters.
18:43
I do that all the time.
As a parameter to a function template. IIRC it's also possible to use functions as class template parameters.
Function addresses are resolved at link time. At compile time their address is just a placeholder for the linker to fill in later. And from what I remember from "Modern C++ Design", this placeholder can be used as a template parameter.
@EtiennedeMartel you can't obtain an address to a function as a pointer as a non-type tp IIRC
tried to do that the other day
@StackedCrooked oh you just said that
either way there's a horrible answer somewhere on so recommending unique_ptr<T, std::function<void(T)>>
19:06
@EtiennedeMartel To summarize (some of) what you can do:
19:46
@JerryCoffin what does foo(baz()) show?
Oh, that an operator can be passed in as an argument
20:03
that's*
20:32
@Rick Well, an object is being passed as the argument, and we invoke the operator on that object (baz() isn't invoking baz.operator(), it's just creating a temporary object of type baz).
static operator() didn't pass the committee vote :(
Ace
Ace
Does anyone know how to step over a blocking function calll inside gdb?
@Morwenn Everybody like music, but nobody likes static.
:46814257, what would be the reason for having the operator outside the constructor like that
as a member
@Morwenn I can see the hacker news rage now if it had made it in...
20:41
@Morwenn Wait, that's a thing that got proposed?
because it still gets fired off
@Mysticial lots of crap gets proposed
Nah, it was fine, it didn't introduce any new syntax
We were talking about this earlier:
3 hours ago, by Mysticial
@JerryCoffin Some custom hash table where the template type is the hash function. And it's stateless.
It was just a hint to the compiler to not pass the this pointer
20:42
@Morwenn except it would collide with constructors... and make parsing insane
@Morwenn How does it disambiguate with the constructors?
I said no new syntax
dammit
Hence the questions about constructors...
What's difficult to understand with "no new syntax" o.o
20:44
@Morwenn The most difficult parse?
You can only call it on an instance except the instance is meaningless: the pointer to the instance isn't passed to the function
No new syntax whatsoever
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhh... I'm dumb.
@Morwenn AH that makes more sense
so it's completely useless
^^ that
According to Barry Revzi it produced better codegen
20:45
we were thinking how do you differentiate Foo() and Foo.operator() when they both look like Foo();
oh right. How did I of all people forget about performance?
Optimizers apparently amways pass this to member functions no matter whether it's used or not
@Morwenn calling conventions.. yes
technically empty base class or empty class optimization could remove that
Basically unpessimize std::less and friends
One that needs to be fixed that's somewhat related is the ability to explicitly call a templated constructor.
20:48
@Morwenn In theory shouldn't [[no_unique_address]] be used or applied to the struct for that purpose (I realize it's not currently allowed)
AFAIK [[no_unique_address]] can only be applied to class members
And that doesn't fix the fact that if your optimizer can't see the body of foobar::operator(), it will still need to pass a pointer to an instance of foobar to the function
I know I guess what I'm suggesting is that the committee could use that attribute on function objects that are empty to allow the compiler to omit the this
basically as a way of saying that the operator() can be called directly
Marking the operator() static seemed to be in line with how we usually do that :p
yeah but you still have to create an instance to call it...
even if the compiler does do EBO
or crazy things
You still need an instance anyway in case you ever want to take a pointer to it v0v
20:54
I guess what I'm saying is that the developer is deliberately saying that shouldn't be allowed
so the trade off is you can't
Hard to not take pointers in generic code sometimes
tbf I'm not sure this matters as a captureless lambda should have the same effect
Or you'd have to = delete std::addressof on any such type
And that would probably change overload resolution or some shit here and there
well if I used std::addressof on such a data member what's the behavior?
Oh right, I forgot but one of the main use cases of static operator() was actually stateless lambdas :o
You still get a pointer
IIRC [[no_unique_address]] can only collapse pointers to elements of different types
I should check to make sure
20:56
static members can't access nonstatic variables, so why would you want a static operator
looks like it collapses it to the core address of the instance
@Rick because stateless
that's kinda a huge thing, stateless is an amazingly powerful thing
> e1 and e2 cannot share the same address because they have the same type, even though they are marked with [[no_unique_address]]
Yup, I was apparently right
But you can store two empty objects in a char[2] if all of them are in the same class, so it's actually more powerful than EBO
It means that it can collapse not only to the core address of the instance, but also anywhere else in the instance
either way I'm out
later
peace
night
21:05
from my understanding, static members don't have a class instance.
yeah, that's the whole point of static members
but you can call them from a class instance
@Morwenn I kinda think it's dumb though. Unless in you're in a TMP situation where it may or may not be static depending on the type.
std::array::size could have been static and it would still have felt natural to call it from an instance
And would have been mandatory to satisfy the container name requirements
Somehow it all boils down to generic programming :p
@Morwenn yeah but that's only because they are in the same namespace. Nothing is really linking to the instance, just the namespace
a.static_function(), not linked to the instance, but directly linked to the type of a
21:22
I still don't get why operator()(){ cout << "hit" endl;} member still gets called in the example above. It's not in the constructor
*it's not being called from inside the constructor
it just seems like its being immediately invoked when the constructor is called
I take that back I suddenly feel like a dumb ass
goddam your argument juggling jerry
22:13
!!!!!
 
1 hour later…
23:37
@Rick Sorry for the delay--had to stop and do some work for a while.
So, this part: foo(baz()); creates a temporary baz object, and passes it to foo. Then foo receives that as f (of some type F). It then does f();. So, if you passed the address of a function, it'll call the function whose address you passed. OTOH, if you passed an object, it'll invoke that object's operator().
Now if you really want to go crazy, trace through proxy types in matrix3. Mu hah hah hah! (or however an evil laugh is supposed to sound...)

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