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11:00
@DeadMG would they though? Not every one purchases items based purely on functional needs
@DeadMG Same could be said for ore. Had supplier A not offered me that ore, supplier B would have, and I would have given him my money and not supplier A
@Neil Not really, because supplier B may well have only X capacity. If you need ore, then there's a fair chance that supplier B simply won't have any, because he's already contracted to sell his output to someone else.
@DeadMG Then there's supplier C, and supplier D. I doubt you'd ever have to worry about not finding a supplier with enough ore
@Neil If there is more ore supply than demand, then I fully agree- there is no need for Supplier A to exist.
You would have to be fairly ignorant to insist that the European cup did not cause additional money to be spent and moved hands. It would be even more ignorant to think that we could get by with out money moving around
any way, lunch time
11:02
@DeadMG It's as you said, that demand existed anyway, whether or not Supplier A gives me that ore. So I spend my money to any Supplier that can provide me that ore with the best price.
@thecoshman People would just have moved their money in a different direction. For example, they could have deposited it in those banks, which badly need capital.
@DeadMG Perhaps people would have used that money responsibly. Good one. :)
@DeadMG What does it mean to "create money" anyway? That's kind of a loose term
@ManofOneWay Um, sure. Why?
@Neil Right. But that's functional competition. If Supplier B can deliver for the cheapest price, then there's a real advantage.
@DeadMG no, banks need people to borrow money and get charges
11:04
@jalf The net ability of the human race to perform useful activities increases.
NP if you just want me to look over it. If it's for a job, I should just give you my boss' email address :)
@DeadMG that's quite different from how money is usually defined
discussions, discussions
also, what is useful? Entertainment, most definitely isn't. Is procreation useful? Is any of the work I do at my job useful? It helps hospitals better do their job, but is that useful? It's all subjective
@jalf How else could you define money, if not a measurement of value of a service or product?
jalf and thecoshman are trying to rationalize things that suck dick.
11:05
@DeadMG That's another discussion entirely. You said that revenue was not created from the european cup unlike say, selling ore, which I disagree because if a factory requires ore, they will either directly buy the ore or they will have it smeltered by another company for them.
in the end, a football match is useful because it provides entertainment that a lot of people care about.
But the demand is always the same regardless of who provides it.
@jalf People need entertainment, else I'm pretty sure bad things happen, from the psychological perspective. However, I accept that there's a somewhat gray area as to what might be defined as useful and what not.
@jalf Then maybe that's better =) I want to start looking for jobs as soon as possible, since I'm starting my thesis this autumn. I believe it's good to be out in time.
@Neil Right... but those other companies only have so much capacity. If Supplier A did not exist, then Factory A which depends on it's capacity could not exist, and everything it creates could not exist.
11:07
@DeadMG Btw, I've asked three companies, but they all require a degree :(
I have a few more to ask
@ManofOneWay Aye, surpriseth me not.
I actually have a couple companies I was going to apply to on SO careers.
@DeadMG Since when? If I needed ore and Supplier A did not exist, a new supplier C would be created which survives off the revenue Supplier A would have made.
@Neil Then what is the difference between Supplier C and supplier A?
@DeadMG You should really do that, I think you will get far just by showing your SO account
yeah
they want me to do a cover letter thingy
and then I realized that I have no idea WTF goes in a cover letter
11:09
:)
@DeadMG Different brand, different quality perhaps.
I did a letter of introduction for IBM once, I can send it to you if you want to
@ManofOneWay Would be appreciated, actually.
@Neil Ore has to be of a certain quality to be useful- or processed until it is. Low-quality ore, and the demand for it, is not the same as high-quality ore.
as in, they are separate markets, even if related
Give me your email and I'll send it as soon as I'm home from work
factory X couldn't simply switch to a lower quality ore and not have a problem
11:10
@DeadMG For all you know, Supplier C could produce the same quality ore as non-existent Supplier A would have.
@Neil Then they are functionally equivalent and you have changed nothing.
@DeadMG That's my point. Removing Supplier A means another supplier will retain the equivalent share of the market, more or less.
That's like saying if De Beers didn't supply diamonds, there would be no diamond market
That's ridiculous
@Neil Right. I'm not sure why you made that point, since I don't disagree in the slightest.
An equivalnet would exist
in fact, that was basically my point to begin with.
11:13
@DeadMG @Neil Right... but those other companies only have so much capacity. If Supplier A did not exist, then Factory A which depends on it's capacity could not exist, and everything it creates could not exist.
-1
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So there would exist a Supplier B with Factory B, which depends on its capacity
@Neil Right. But if you exchange Supplier A and Supplier C, then obviously Factory A can continue to exist just fine.
as the capacity has not changed
and you haven't actually removed a supplier at all.
Who's the supplier of this discussion?
Let's take him out of business
@DeadMG So why did you say if supplier A did not exist then factory A which depends on its capacity could not exist?
As you said, Factory A can continue to exist just fine
11:15
There's a chance I might go crazy today.
@DomagojPandža Somehow we got to talking about the economics of ore from the european cup
Sup, robot?
because I did not say "If supplier A did not exist but was then replaced with an effectively identical clone, such that supplier A still effectively exists."
@RMartinhoFernandes Crazy robot.
if supplier A did not exist, and implicitly, was not replaced by an equivalent.
11:16
@DomagojPandža You're probably not interested. I'm fighting a crazy compiler, and it's not C++.
@RMartinhoFernandes Haskell?
@DeadMG We've been down there... then supplier C would take its place.
It would be replaced by an equivalent, that's just it
I'll post this error message on pastebin because it's just hilarious.
And gigantic.
@Neil ... If it was not replaced. Let's say that Supplier A's founder came from Area X who discovered ore veins Y, and if he did not exist, those veins would not have been discovered.
or let's say that there is an accident in the mine, destroying the ore.
pastebin.com/QCq83Guh The last paragraph is awesome.
@DeadMG Some Android translator thingy.
11:18
lol
@DeadMG As if had those ore veins not been discovered, then the demand could not have been met.
@Neil Well, no Supplier C can exist, because he has nowhere to mine his replacement ore from.
The economy is far more vast to be shaken by one mining company which had never discovered an ore vein.
it's a thought experiment. The effect of Supplier A's ore vein may be small, but it is non-zero.
without it, Factory A and everything it does cannot exist.
that may be small, but it is definite and non-zero.
A's existence has direct value- that value, to be precise.
If you find that you cannot do this, then
that is an indication that the path you are on will ultimately
lead to pain, suffering, grief, and lamentation.
lol
11:21
@DeadMG Well you're assuming you can measure his contribution to the economy like that, but it's a lot more complicated than that
I think I'm passing the grief stage right now. I'll now start lamenting the decisions I made and rewrite this with a different library. One with actual BuilderFactories in it :(
With less ore available, prices simply move up, but that doesn't mean a Supplier C wouldn't exist
@Neil With less ore available, people pay more money, but receive the same product. That is definitely a loss to those people and the economy in general.
@DeadMG Not necessarily. If the prices didn't move as a consequence of 1 of thousands of iron mining companies not existing, then you'd be wrong.
In large numbers, I'd agree with you, but what you're trying to do is remove a droplet of water from a large bucket and measure the drop in water level
@Neil There would be a definite, if low, impact.
@Neil Which does definitely exist.
and, indeed, the fundamental principle of "Remove water from bucket, level drops" is perfectly valid.
11:24
@DeadMG Yes, in my metaphor it's true, though that's where the metaphor fails
@DeadMG Not if it's raining and the bucket is full already :P
the fact that I chose to illustrate it on a smaller scale is not particularly relevant, because it's true at any scale.
@RMartinhoFernandes Hehehe.
or indeed, I could argue that it's simply an example and you could replace Factory A with, say, Oil Rig A, drilling tens of billions of dollars of oil from the sea.
Money Rig.
Bitcoin Rig!
however
Advertising Agency A does not have value, because if it were to be destroyed in an earthquake, then money would simply move from Place A to Place B.
although, arguably, it does have the value of it's physical assets, buildings and such things, but those aren't really properties of advertising agencies
If it were to be destroyed in an earthquake they'd have redundant servers on the other side of the world.
11:31
@RMartinhoFernandes Floods in Thailand, anyone?
@ManofOneWay sorry, got called away for a minute
@RMartinhoFernandes Eh, probably true. Nonexistence is more likely.
What should I do again? :D
@DeadMG Well, I was assuming lack of incompetence :)
@jalf Clean up your room!
11:35
I wonder if we can make money out of incompetence.
It seems to be in high demand.
And I'm sure the supply isn't lacking.
sbi
sbi
I found a worm in my Raspberry Pi. :(
I can't see it.
@ManofOneWay linkedin.com/… for the current job ads
can catch me at [email protected]
11:38
Always keep a lever handy if you're dealing with raspberries. Just in case you need to release the tiger.
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes It's not like anyone had seen Sasser from a cursory look at a Windows PC.
It's been a long walk, getting from there to here, it's been a long time, but my time is finally here.
@sbi You mean a computer worm, as in malicious software?
I can feel the change in the wind right now, PHP is not in my way.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked 1. Look at the picture again. 2. Think. 3. Facepalm.
11:41
#3 is the most important.
Repeat #3 until shame goes away.
Also, lunch time. Java dragons will be slain in the afternoon.
best for slaying dragons.
I've looked repeatedly but I still don't see the worm
Slaying Skyrim dragons is a lot more fun, that's certain.
11:42
@sbi I've facepalmed a lot in my life. I'm still as slow as ever.. :p
user784668
@sbi lol think
@RMartinhoFernandes just feed them a leap second, then they'll fall over by themselves....
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Do you really have to go after those poor, powerless little creatures?
@DeadMG Hint: there isn't one.
@RMartinhoFernandes I guessed that.
sbi
sbi
11:45
@DeadMG Those little buggers hide in them fruits of my work!
@jalf Ahahah, that was an amazing fail.
@DomagojPandža let's just say I suddenly know exactly which of our tools and server processes are based on java, and which ones aren't...
sbi
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@Neil Actually, this game was one of the more interesting ones in this EC, and certainly the most interesting one of Spain. You just disliked it because you were favoring the wrong team. :-/
@DeadMG Grown men are paid much more for more silly things (Instagram, anyone?), and you do not doubt on the sanity of that. Those guys make lots of money because they are helping others to make even more money. It's as simple as that.
@sbi I do doubt the sanity of that, personally.
although you'd get a lot further trying to convince me that Instagram has real value
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Which is nonsense, because it hasn't.
11:52
@sbi The data that exists on Instagram could permit some company to produce some product that is better value for it's consumers. I'm not saying that it will, or that that happens, but it could.
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Same for any sport. I bet a lot of health products originated in sports.
user784668
@sbi It was the most interesting one of Spain because Spain sucked in earlier ones.
@sbi Arguably, they would not be necessary if sports did not exist.
besides, I'd expect the militaries (whose existence is another debate) of the world to pick up the slack on keeping athletic people healthy
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG That's not true. They would have been developed later and elsewhere, though.
if you don't have athletes, why do you need athletic healthcare products?
11:55
@DeadMG For fast animals?
3, 2, 1...
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Where did the "athletic" enter the health "care product" debate?
@Fanael Actually they didn't suck. They played good football to the extent that they won their games pretty steadily. It just wasn't all that interesting to watch that. :)
health care products which come about as a result of sports, focus on sportsmen.
Newsflash: nothing has objective, intrinsic value.
Took @DeadMG long enough to discover nihilism
user784668
@sbi Good we agree they sucked :P
Newshtml5canvas
sbi
sbi
11:57
@jalf He's still denying having discovered nihilism. That's so meta.
@DeadMG The 7-gear switch (pretty old nowadays) on my bike is a result of bicycling sport, and to me has a pretty good value. Voilá.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: I just ate my Raspberry Pi. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
Last election someone put up posters for "Nihilistic People's Party". They were hilarious :)
@jalf True enough. But I'm not talking about objective or intrinsic value. Value to humans is fine by me.
Alright, my dearest Loungers, time to put in some work. <3
My favorite was a baby seal on a pink heart background, and then the label "Nothing matters... except cute animals"
See you guys later, don't choke on code pieces.
12:00
do you have overload operator== for const as well?
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Well, guess what. You (and me) might look down onto those get so much value out of football, but they do get it, and here it's millions.
@TonyTheLion Your question doesn't make sense. const isn't a class type.
@sbi Indeed. I'm not saying it doesn't have value. I'm only saying that it gained it's value by just taking away from somewhere else, and if it did not exist, the total amount of value would not change, and it does not actually produce net value.
@DeadMG which is wrong
even assuming you can unambiguously define "value", which you can't
sbi
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@DeadMG If it does that, so the value of ice cream also is solely in stealing value elsewhere.
well, unless you define it in a particularly useless way
12:03
@jalf A partial definition of "value" is fine, as long as it covers the case in question.
sbi
sbi
You are one damn nihilist puppy.
3
libc++ is down to 6.7% test failures, 9.8% sections with failures on Windows.
What non-broken exception handling can do for tests using exceptions :)
sbi
sbi
You can get test failures down pretty impressively by lowering test coverage.
@sbi Arguably, ice cream is a convenient food, and adds value in that it has different properties to the other foods you might choose to eat.
@sbi it's running all the tests ;-)
heck, even <atomic> works, where that failed before.
sbi
sbi
12:06
@DeadMG Arguably, watching football is a nice waste of time, and adds value in that it has different properties to the other ways to waste you time you might chose from.
not really
Clang seems unable to produce any usable debug info on Windows, so unfortunately a segfault is just a nonsensical backtrace :-(
if you eat ice cream, you might save actual time in preparing some other dish that's roughly equivalent
besides, I'm not at all convinced of the argument that ice cream has value, and the obesity epidemic would most definitely indicate that food in general does not really benefit us an awful lot and we could really do with a lot less.
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG I actually prepared two meals while I was watching Spain beating Portugal the other day.
things like that and tobacco are prime examples of what I'm talking about
people found a way to make a profit, even at the expense of others, so they did their best to suppress and ignore information showing how harmful it was
sbi
sbi
12:09
@DeadMG Yet you are ready to defend the value of ice cream on the spot as being higher than the value of watching sports.
Sorry, puppy, but you suck. While you haven't thought this through, yet, you should have keep your mouth firmly shut.
The problem with saying that such things have no value is that then the burden is on your to explain why anything else has value
@sbi Very true. Even as I was typing it, I was uncertain of the argument I was making.
sbi
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@DeadMG How come I knew that?
and should have taken a few minutes to actually decide my position on whether or not ice cream has value
Why do you have any value? Why does a compiler have value? Why does oxygen have value? If we take this reasoning to its logical conclusion, then they don't have any
sbi
sbi
12:11
@DeadMG While you're at that, why not take a few days and think about a few of the other issues you have yet to think through?
@jalf That's not true. Oxygen has value to human society- without it, we could not exist.
and I'm fine with defining value as what's good for human civilization in general.
@DeadMG Yes, and football has value to football enthusiasts. Without it, they could not exist
@DeadMG what timescale are we looking at then?
What is the value of us existing?
It isn't there, unless you're willing to go subjective and say "oh, for humanity, the existence of humanity is important"
value now and value in the future and for future generations is something entirely different.
12:13
@jalf I completely am.
which, fundamentally, is no different than "to football enthusiasts, football is important"
not really
sbi
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@DeadMG How do you know we wouldn't exist? When it came up first, oxygen was a lethal poison excreted by micro organism, that threatened to destroy all life on earth.
@DeadMG Yes really
the difference in outcome of humanity existing or not existing is much more than a football enthusiast being a football enthusiast or a basketball enthusiast.
sbi
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12:14
@DeadMG Saying "not true!" to a rational argument doesn't come across very convincing, you know.
@sbi I was just finishing elaborating on my perspective, you know.
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@jalf Trying to convince the puppy using the ultima ratio of philosophy is like trying to stop a C program from leaking by inserting calls to free() wherever you see something leaked. It's much easier to just scrap the whole thing and start from a clean slate. :)
let's wipe @DeadMG clean.
sbi
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@DeadMG As you can see, I had already addressed that point while you were doing so.
He's been a dirty puppy...
sbi
sbi
12:19
Interestingly, searching the web for "nihilist puppy" finds you this. How fitting.
Anyway, I'm off to my personal beach again!
@sbi looks like tony answered it
> BTW, don't worry, I'm not some random preditor or something like that lolz
lol
AVOID ALL THE PREDITORS!
12:34
man I want this day to finish
really want to head home
@sbi Maybe. Just let me be pouty in peace. :(
@Neil pounty?
@thecoshman pouty
@Neil ooooh, I was sure there was an 'n' in that, was confused as a cat in a bag
@thecoshman I didn't edit, I promise. :)
12:38
@Neil I can see that, I blame suspected dyslexia
@DomagojPandža IRC please if you are about
@rubenvb I think that a more accurate statement for today's world is AVOID ALL THE CREDITORS
12:54
I have 2 std::map<rectangle, ray> maps, and I'm comparing the second element ray like so inside the loops if ( it->second == noc->second ) but my compiler says error C2678: binary '=' : no operator found which takes a left-hand operand of type 'const rectangle' (or there is no acceptable conversion) could be 'rectangle rectangle::operator =(const rectangle &)'
I don't get where the operator= comes in on the rectangle type, cause I'm not even comparing that
operator= was overloaded on both structs
You must be having the typo problem somewhere.
Try Clang. I know GCC gets confused sometimes when there are braces missing in if statements
there's no typo's
it's MSVC
temp[noc->first] = noc->second; could this be the issue inside the if statement?
code please.
@TonyTheLion The code and the error give different opinions.
the compiler says no operator=, the code says ==.
so it's impossible for that code to cause that error.
> temp[noc->first] = noc->second;
@TonyTheLion ^ that line?
I wouldn't be surprised if this is in a const member function and the temp map is a field.
I put my money on some const and std::map::operator[] mismatch.
there's quite clearly an extra const knocking around somewhere
^ inspiration
13:07
@Pubby is that the keyword cloud thing for the C++ Standard?
pubic string
@rubenvb Looks more like C#
@rubenvb I don't know
ah yes, it does.
@jalf absolutely
@DeadMG consts don't knock
13:08
I also don't know why anyone would make an image like that
> IRegistryKey
ew
@Pubby not hard to do, you know
@sehe Yeah, but why do it to your source?
You're missing the point. Some people will do stuff -just because they can-
They saw something. Thought it was neat. Copy it. Cargo Cult without the programming
(I think everyone is prone to this to an extent, really)
is dereferencing this inside a decltypefor an 'auto foo ->return' style member function supposed to be permitted?
@Flexo I think it is. But it's an incomplete type so you can't access members or anyshit like that, which quite limits it's usefulness.
13:15
@DeadMG so this->foo() isn't supposed to work? gcc 4.7 permits it but clang 3.0 rejects it with "invalid use of 'this' outside of nonstatic member function"
not a huge deal since I can use declval, but
@Flexo Yeah, it's super-annoying.
ah damn you can't use declval if what you want to call is protected/private
13:46
There. Sent the new libc++ test results to cfe-dev. Only 6.7% failures remain! Of which a big part locale naming related, so those are fixed in the tests themselves.
@Flexo There was some DR thingy.
@rubenvb what is that? For Clang on Windows?
@jalf Yes.
@jalf Oh wait, does that mean your things are not using JodaTime?
But Clang can already use GCC's libstdc++ on Windows right now.
And it works pretty great on 32-bit.
Although each time I say that, people start pounding on me.
13:48
@RMartinhoFernandes It means we're using some Java-based products. Jenkins, FishEye and one or two others
Oh wait, now I remember JodaTime doesn't support leap seconds either.
Not that we're actually doing Java development ourselves (not entirely true, but close enough)
That was one of the points where we decided to depart from the original when porting it.
@jalf Anyway, do you know of any time API that supports leap seconds?
nope. No clue tbh. Haven't looked at it at all :)
just discovered earlier today that half our servers were busy-looping at 100% CPU
so we just rebooted them until it went away :)
@jalf mysql
13:55
Well, I don't blame them for not supporting them. They're a pain in the ass. And then you need to keep external data for them.
@RMartinhoFernandes You would think by now, it would be a fairly standard practice. Of course, how long it would take for people to get around to updating the software such that supports leap seconds
@thecoshman No, I wouldn't think that.
oh no, they've only been around for 25 years
13:57
leap time sucks
@thecoshman 25 years later they still completely blow out of proportion the complexity your already complex date and time model, and the benefits are minimal.
the definition of "second" should change.
so far, there have been 13 leap seconds, as we still do not have libraries that support them, I can only assume that we have 13 such incidents where shit breaks.
@thecoshman People use time for more than "current time".
metric time is clearly the future
13:58
That's like assuming Y2K bugs didn't appear before January 1, 2000, or Y2K+38 bugs haven't occurred already.
So, it's entirely possible there were more than 13 such incidents.
@Flexo and what would that be?

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