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12:17 AM
reddit could be a hacker, but never 4 chan
 
12:28 AM
it's like imagine stackoverflow as a nanny
 
personally I can't imagine Stack Overflow as anything less than high-maintenance
 
12:42 AM
high maintenance and programmers don't seem to go together :p
 
1:03 AM
Wow. An avatar of an SO user that shows her their pussy. I'm surprised it doesn't get flagged
 
 
1 hour later…
2:05 AM
@ArkadiuszKoćma ooOOoo
 
2:45 AM
@sehe Perhaps people have watched the BBC.
2
 
3:14 AM
"Master Cat, or The Booted Cat" (Italian: Il gatto con gli stivali; French: Le Maître chat ou le Chat botté), commonly known in English as "Puss in Boots", is a European literary fairy tale about a cat who uses trickery and deceit to gain power, wealth, and the hand of a princess in marriage for his penniless and low-born master. The oldest record of written history dates from Italian author Giovanni Francesco Straparola, who included it in his The Facetious Nights of Straparola (c. 1550–53) in XIV–XV. Another version was published in 1634 by Giambattista Basile with the title Cagliuso, and a tale...
 
 
2 hours later…
5:29 AM
does anyone know whether mixing the use of power supply for iphone, samsung galaxy and raspberry pi would damage any of them?
 
 
3 hours later…
8:27 AM
@Telkitty Any mismatch by a few volts, is unlikely to damage the phone because it has a power built-in power regulator.
 
8:49 AM
@Mikhail s/federal/nation-wide
 
> The filter resembles a for loop but it is a builtin function and faster.
3
looool
TFW when your audience is so horrible you have to literally compare higher-order utilities to for loops because that's the only thing they can relate to
 
Ven
9:20 AM
Heyo
 
9:34 AM
@Ven sup
 
10:20 AM
@sehe so basically... I could recreate their entire model for a damn site less :P How about I charge like... $2.50 per year per image & recording. It's a so much cheaper than what they are charging, and I suspect the vast majority of that money will just go towards filling my pockets :D
 
10:50 AM
@JerryCoffin This is awesome. :D
 
11:18 AM
If I make an unofficial documentation of a part of the software X which is under license L. Are there any restrictions on the license I can choose for the documentation?
The software is a compiler and I documented some undocumented misc syntax supported by that compiler.
The language, compiler, etc. are owned by the same company.
 
@Yashas Ask a lawyer. But my guess is that your documentation is your own creation unaffected by license of the product itself.
 
The software is licensed under Apache License version 2.0.
 
11:42 AM
You might be ok making the documentation, but use of the trademarks could be an issue
 
@thecoshman Would it? Shouldn't you be able to describe something with mentioning its name?
 
Oh, maybe that counts as fair use
 
I mean, it is not Voldemort...
@Mikhail You should be glad you did not have to do that in C++.
 
12:36 PM
google search results are getting worse all the times
 
@Telkitty I concur.
 
I searched for 'top 10 greatest books of all time' and search result returned top 10 novels of all time
@wilx I am glad that I am not the only one feel this way :p
 
 
2 hours later…
2:15 PM
@CaptainGiraffe No, only Msc. Thank god.
 
2:28 PM
@thecoshman If they've trademarked a name, you need to specify (once) that it's a trademark. If the trademark is registered, you should acknowledge that. For example: "Visual Studio is a trademark and Microsoft is a registered trademark of Microsoft corporation." You need that (only) once, typically at the beginning of the document. You typically document all of which you're aware, and then include a sentence that other names may be trademarks of their owners.
 
nwp
What a waste of life.
 
As long as you've made a reasonable effort, and there's nothing to lead somebody to believe that you're claiming their name as your own, that's likely to be sufficient to keep you out of trouble (at least in most jurisdictions of which I'm aware).
 
and do some research about how you are allowed to use the trademark
 
@JerryCoffin Sounds reasonable, which probably means you're still open for being screwed
 
@ratchetfreak The point of a trademark is to protect consumers. If somebody has a trademark, I can't use it (or something similar) to try to convince consumers that my knock-off product is the real thing. There are limits though. At one time, Deringer pistols were popular enough that knock-offs were pretty common. One company did it legally though: they hired a guy who was actually named "Deringer", and made him part owner of the company.
Since he was part owner, and it was legitimately his name, that was enough to make it legal to use the name on their products. Doing a legal name change for commercial gain isn't allowed though...
 
2:36 PM
they can also be prissy about logo use
 
@thecoshman Well, it's what I did (under advice of attorneys) in the past. The situations were quite adversarial, so I'm pretty sure if they'd had any excuse for claiming I'd done something wrong, they'd have done exactly that.
@ratchetfreak A logo will normally be a trademark, protected like any other trademark.
 
@JerryCoffin ha, that's fucking brilliant. "My job at this company is to have my name"
 
 
2 hours later…
4:32 PM
 
 
3 hours later…
7:14 PM
We are through the looking glass here, our vendors are scrambling to release workarounds to the spectre workarounds pushed by kernel developers and microsoft
Apparently fudging with timing resolution really does a number on real time applications running on WIN
 
compensate the timing changes by tinkering with reality
4
 
are they thinking of reducing timer resolution on windows?
 
7:33 PM
One possible fix, but the patch in question doesn't actually do that
 
 
1 hour later…
8:45 PM
Men and women CAN just be friends. If the guy is gay, http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797617733803
^ That's what I have been saying all those years!
 
9:00 PM
If your attitude is that straight men can't have lasting friendships with straight women, then you probably won't.
 
ohtheironing.jpg
 
9:30 PM
@Borgleader Been a while since I've opened up the 10k tools. And once again, it fails to disappoint...
-13
Q: Javascript onClick DOESNT WORK I DONT KNOW WHY

Mark WittI made dis: <input type="hidden" id="old_id" name="old_id" value="0"> <br> <input onclick="addSecret" class="btn btn-block" value="Apply Wheel Changes" title="Get a new wheel with the choices entered"> <script type="text/javascript"> function addSecret() ...

 
Yes, it’s true. Today, @dhillonlaw filed a class action lawsuit against Google on behalf of @JamesADamore. It’s time for the world to see what #DiversityAtGoogle really looks like. https://www.dhillonlaw.com/blog/news/dlg-files-class-action-lawsuit-google-behalf-james-damore/
Welp, this is going to be a shitstorm.
 
yes
regardless of what the outcome is, it's going to be a tremendous shitstorm
 
user5500750
9:52 PM
How easy is it to build a 64 bit processor on a breadboard?
 
@Puppy The only case I can see this ending well is that it gets thrown out as frivolous by a judge. But I seriously doubt that if the plaintiff really does have a case. (I don't know if this is the case since I didn't read the lawsuit.) Google might not want to settle since it'll set a precedent for others to "act up" and get fired so they can get their share of money.
When I was at Google, nobody even talked about politics. So nobody cared. But that was pre-Trump.
 
@user5500750 Practically impossible with any modern 64 bit arch
Breadboards have terrible electrical properties so even if you use a SIP/DIP breakout for SMT parts, you will never get reliable timing
<10MHZ for any signals across a breadboard is rule of thumb
 
@crasic Depends. If you have a REALLY big breadboard, you can probably put a very minimalistic processor on it with a very low clock rate.
 
so small 8 bit atmega (aka arduino) or a pic can be breadboarded, anything that has high clock speed, which is practically any implementation of 64 bit arch that exists, you are SOL
@Mysticial Sure, my point is that there are no low-speed 64 bit arch's avaialbel
@user5500750 All of that being said, the RPI3 is ARM64 and will run the AARCH64/ARM64 build of linux
 
@user5500750 Unless you're completely insane, you want to use an FPGA, not a breadboard.
 
9:59 PM
You need to mount that FPGA to something...
 
@crasic I'm imagining someone with a set of G.Skill DDR4 RGB ram hot-glued and soldiered to a breadboard.
I don't think there's a clock speed minimum for DRAM as long as you set the refresh rate correctly.
And that it will take several hours to write over 128GB the ram since the breadboard is only clocked at something like 10 MHz.
 
@crasic Sure--but it's pretty easy to get one pre-mounted in a development kit board. e.g., xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/1-pnziih.html
 
user5500750
I am just looking for general purpose circuits where I can build projects and program in C++ on a 32/64bit setup.
 
user5500750
I am completely new to see and currently looking at Raspberry Pi 3 and arduino
 
@user5500750 You want a 64-bit breadboard processor that can compile C++? AHAHAHAHA - you can build one, but it won't finish compiling within your lifetime.
 
user5500750
10:04 PM
I know something like an intel 3Ghz processor depends on a lot of other things.
 
@JerryCoffin Right, which I guess depends on your definition of breadboarding, in this case you are buying product with all the clock and memory signals integrated on board, so the breadboard interface is PIO and low speed bus, not core clock speed, and you are using a breadboard for signal hookups
 
user5500750
...like memory, other circuits.
 
Raspberry PI3 unless you need better peripheral support then arduino (cortex cores, not atmega)
 
user5500750
Sometimes I wonder how easy it would be to just put an intel processor on a breadboard and program on it.
 
user5500750
I am looking to work on an a tablet OS.
 
10:06 PM
@user5500750 Practically impossible, Processors are much more complicated than a microcontroller
 
user5500750
...with very high graphics.
 
@user5500750 I did that in college. We had a bunch of the original 8-bit x86 processors in the lab. You can put it right into a breadboard. And one of the projects was to build a timer with it. IIRC, the chip was clocked at like 12 MHz.
 
@user5500750 Next to impossible. An Intel processor has very tight requirements on things like maximum reactance of the signal paths, which requires extremely careful signal routing and such. It also requires a lot of decoupling capacitors that have to be extremely close to the processor--typically mounted on the opposite side of the PC board.
 
user5500750
...and run a game on it?
 
@Mysticial Shitty, toxic employee with an attitude of superiority? Would fire in a heartbeat
 
user5500750
10:08 PM
Something that can support something like Final Fantasy XV or Skyrim
 
How much money do you have?
 
user5500750
OpenGL
 
@Mysticial 12 MHz would (probably) be a 286. 8086 was the original, but (if memory serves) the fastest that ever ran was around 6 or 8 MHz.
 
For 1 Million in engineering costs you can probably get a first prototype of a custome mother board
but may as well just buy a few thousand ITX boxes instead...
 
@JerryCoffin Then it might've been a special "breadboard" remake of the original x8086 just for laboratory breadboards made in > 2000.
The thing literally had breadboard pins on it.
 
10:10 PM
@Mysticial Do you mean DIP packaged? Early Intel parts came in DIP
But the "true" early 8080 and 8086 architectures had a dizzying array of required supporting chips
 
@Mysticial The original 8086 was in a DIP package that would fit a breadboard fairly well (main problem was the rows of pins were on a wider center than the 0.3 inches breadboards were designed for.
 
@JerryCoffin ooh
 
user5500750
Probably OEM tablets is the route to go.
 
user5500750
Unbranded processors and circuit boards
 
10:14 PM
@JerryCoffin Ah yes... I remember this:
 
is it already the annual survey? It feels like the latest one was two months ago ._____.
 
@Mysticial Quite possibly an NEC V20 or V30? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20
 
@JerryCoffin I don't remember. I might've taken pictures of it before they made us take it apart. Though I don't organize my pictures very well.
 
Breadboarding a CPU is a pretty much a useless learning task IMO. Far more learning to be gained from a HDL implementation on FPGA
In the "real world" you either purchase off the shelf platforms or jump straight to PCB design, nobody really breadboards anymore
 
@crasic It was a fun project back in school.
 
10:19 PM
Fun doesn't mean productive. We wrote a 16 bit cpu from scratch in a month because it was HDL, learn much more about PC arch than breadboarding it ever will
 
@crasic You can say the same thing about learning how to do arithmetic by hand. It's useless because everybody will just use a calculator. Not even that, their fucking phone. lol
The point is to learn how it works.
 
I very much disagree, arithmetic is not different if done by hand or in calculator. In this case it's is more like doing arithmetic by stacking with blocks when you can write it on paper.
 
> In a typical week, how many times do you skip a meal in order to be more productive?
 
You don't learn how PC works by breadboarding
 
I always skip meals but it has nothing to do with being productive x)
 
10:22 PM
you are working around all the esoteric decisions made by the IC designers
so you are learning how that particular x86 chipset goes together
which may be useful if you are starting a company based on that product
 
@Mysticial There's a big difference: with arithmetic, you're learning how it works, then you move on to letting a machine do it. Chasing down glitches on a breadboard is (speaking from personal experience) simply a lot of pain.
 
but it won't help you design another computer...
There is no reason for you to know that the address bus is multiplexed with the data bus, so you have to route additional side channel logic for the bank switching
because that is a detail of the architecture implementation, who gives a fuck if you are a trying to learn how to design a CPU or architecture
 
@Mysticial Well, from what I have seen there is plenty that some of it might stick. 161 pages of PDF including Appendixes.
 
> Men are disadvantaged in employment opportunities in the Bay Area
Said no-one ever
It's a joke
 
user5500750
But there people that build custom circuits at home with very high power CPU?
 
user5500750
10:25 PM
Or am I to think this is very complex?
 
@JerryCoffin Fair point. Maybe a better comparison would be with assembly language.
 
@user5500750 Depends on your definition of "high power" , "custom", and "at home"
 
user5500750
Not practical and requires a very large company
 
@crasic In the case of a modern Intel CPU, there's quite a bit you never need to care about unless you decide to build your own replacement for the x299 (or whatever) chip set. Ignoring that possibility, there's a lot that you just need to follow the directions to connect Pin xyz of the processor to pin abc of the bridge chip, and make sure you keep the capacitance below the specified level, and so on. Even the mobo designers rarely pay much attention to what actual signal a trace carries.
 
@crasic I disagree with this. Learning how to build a trivial system on a breadboard helped a lot in my processor design class - especially when it came to the topic of routing congestion.
 
user5500750
10:27 PM
Like just getting an intel i5 CPU/similar rating and using it in a circuit board project
 
@user5500750 I've designed and run a CPU running on an FPGA. If memory serves, there is one guy who has (or at least once had) a 32-bit CPU build in breadboards out of logic ICs (OR gates, AND gates, etc.) running a server on the internet.
 
@JerryCoffin It doubles as a space heater!
 
@user5500750 Are you trying to build your own motherboard from scratch?
 
user5500750
Sort of.
 
user5500750
Build a motherboard with a CPU attached.
 
user5500750
10:30 PM
...and build an OS on it.
 
If you intend to clock it up to the same speed as a desktop system, you're not going to be able to do that with a breadboard because of the circuit tolerances that Jerry mentioned earlier.
 
user5500750
Building an OS is probably very easy these days.
 
1. Not engaging responses
 
A single breadboard cable (probably) has enough capacitance to destroy a 1 GHz signal.
 
@crasic Probably could. Mainframes built that way certain produced a lot of heat.
 
user5500750
10:31 PM
It does not have to be on a breadboard
 
2. Not following up on questions
3. Continuing to ask the same question in a different way
 
@user5500750 Depends on what sort of OS you want, and what your CPU provides.
@Mysticial I think that would be a pretty safe guess. In fact, I doubt a 100 MHz signal would survive in most cases. In the typical case, fast signals require pretty careful attention to things like how tight of a corner you put them through, and most breadboards have tight 90 degree angles between the vertical where you plug in, and the horizontal "bus" between the pin sockets.
 
@JerryCoffin reflections are a concern but the slew rate is what kills you
Breadboard is not bad because of corners, but that the C is so high that the rise time of a signal with reasonable voltage is approaching the clock period
 
@JerryCoffin I think most of the buses on current motherboards max out at only a few hundred MHz. The base clock is around 100 - 200 MHz. Each integrated component multiplies up from there. (CPU, ram)
 
So you are limited, to like 10MHz on the actual breadboard traces
 
10:37 PM
I'm unsure about the DRAM though. If they get 2 transfers every cycle (DDR) at whatever clock speed they're at, that has to imply a frequency of 1+ GHz going over the motherboard itself.
 
@crasic Sorry, I was thinking a but ahead of what I actually wrote. Point was that even if you worked at improving the other parts, even in theory the sharp corners involved in the basic design of a typical breadboard probably prevent you from going a lot higher even at best.
 
@Mysticial Yes, using differential signaling such clock rates are possible for runs on board
This is also true for PCIe
However, you are basically tunning the transmission channel to the communication, requires careful load balancing, trace length match (at those speeds even an extra mm of wire can mean totally destroying your timing) , and decoupling
That being said, RAM is parallel interface, so the memory clock is 400-800MHZ or so, and the gigabit throughput is because the interface is 32/64 bits at a time (or whatever)
 
@crasic I know mobos have different frequency domains just like inside the CPU itself. I just wasn't sure if the actual lines that traverse the motherboard do run at 1+ GHz. PCIe is definitely a parallel interface, but are the differences between each generation clock speed increases?
 
@JerryCoffin I mean, a board via is also a sharp corner, and you can't break out a BGA component without any vias, generally speaking reflections are handled with impedance matching the transmission line
@Mysticial To a certain extent, yes, but not nearly as dramatic as it was up to the late 90's
@Mysticial Generally speaking, its really hard to get signals much faster than that on PCB, the material properties of the PCB become critical and very very difficult to control.
You move from the regime of wires/traces to waveguides
And all of that being said, the equipment to debug/design this stuff is ridonculous. A signal/spectrum analyzer that can do Eye Diagrams for PCIe or memory busses costs more than a Tesla electric car
 
10:53 PM
@crasic I've been wondering how to do you do a spectrum analyzer on a 1+ GHz signal. The probes themselves will have enough capacitance to mess up the signal. I have a few of these at home in my dad's lab, but I think they max out at a few hundred MHz.
 
@Mysticial Very expensive, active differential probes
The priciest probes handle 30GHZ bandwidth and cost 30KUSD
 
nice... We definitely don't have those lying around the lab.
 
30GHZ bandwidth means comfortable sensing of signals Up to about 3 GHZ
For Digital Logic <~600MHZ you can use a logic analyzer directly
 
@crasic There is one nice point though. Much like cameras losing value quickly, while lenses retain theirs, o'scopes and logic analyzers lose value quickly but probes retain theirs quite well.
 
@crasic The ones we have are analog. No fancy OS looking screen like that.
 
11:03 PM
@Mysticial Digital Scope are the standard now, you can get ones equivalent to top of the line analog gen scopes for a few bills
100-300MHz bandwidth, ~Giga Samples, about 500 bucks
you pay for the triggering modes now
So Tek will sell you a 3K scope that is quite good, but then you pay a $500 license to get additional triggering modes enabled in firmware
 
@crasic That doesn't sound too bad if it goes over the 1 GHz. IIRC, the analog ones we have (probably late-1990s era) were several grand.
And only a few hundred MHz.
 
@Mysticial There is still an analog bandwidth spec, determined by the input amplifier stage (which is analog)
typically these scopes will advertise 100-300MHZ bandwidth (analog) for normal models
but the digital sampling may be Gigasamples
So in terms of the fastest signal you can feed in, roughly the same as analog scopes, with enough sampling overhead that you will never run into nyquist for any signals the scope can actually injest
 
I don't know what our scopes actually sample at. But I remember them being able to track a signal at a 100 MHz or so. (and use knobs to measure the amplitude, phase, etc...)
 
@Mysticial If it's analog there is no sampling, the signal drives the control grid of the display directly
so the only limit is the bandwidth of the analog input circuitry
 
@crasic oh ok
 
11:08 PM
There is a "refresh" (VSYNC) which is controlled by the trigger, which may be complex
but after triggering, it just sweeps the dot across the display with the deflection directly controlled by input
 
Ironically, referencing our earlier conversation about the utility of breadboarding a processor. I do think its valuable to learn to use an analog scope before a digital one
 
@crasic ..same as a mid-range analog scope. There were analog scopes that would do a GHz; digital scopes with the same capabilities aren't as expensive as the analog ones were new, but they're still thousands of dollars, not hundreds.
 
Sorry for onebox, but you are not correct, the low end of digital scopes are in the hundreds for that capability
Tek's, yeah, still thousands
But your point is correct, the entry and midrange digital scopes are about as good input circuitry as midrange analog scopes of yester-year
 
@crasic "50 MHz Analog Bandwidth". That doesn't seem to be competitive with what I was talking about at all.
 
11:14 PM
You are right, not GHZ input range, those are quite expensive
In any case, your point is correct. There are two related specs for digital scopes, bandwidth and sample rate. The bandwidth is determined by analog input stage, and this has been state of the art for decades (incremental improvements, but no giant leap due to digital)
So digital scopes (cheap ones) will advertise very high sample rate, but use simple input stages with low bandwidth
The actual input stage hasn't changed that much
 
@Mysticial lol!
 
@crasic Oh, you can get faster input stages than you could decades ago--but in the multi-GHz range, they're still damned expensive. But yeah, sampling has gotten drastically faster over time, with essentially no rise in cost.
@crasic To put things in perspective, I have a Tek 7000 series mainframe and a couple of 7A19 (600 MHz) input amps. When it was new, that was something like $35-40K. A current "equivalent' (i.e., same bandwidth in the input stage) would probably be only $5-10K or so (I put "equivalent" in quotes, mostly because they wouldn't really be equivalent--mine doesn't have even close to the sampling depth of a modern scope, just for one obvious difference).
 
11:36 PM
@JerryCoffin Thank you for your perspective.
I don't know how true it is, but my impression sampling improvements are because of lots of low hanging fruit, e.g. Jump from general purpose logic to dedicated logic, to ASIC can yield gigantic rewards without investing any money into improving the underlying electronics of the scope (expensive and slow progress).
 
@crasic Not sure, but that sounds reasonable anyway. I think there's probably quite a bit of benefit from the normal process shrinks (and such) that apply to digital ICs in general.
 
11:55 PM
only recently have I started to pay attention on the electronic gigs
apparently the voltage need for the action cam/drone components/RC cars are in the multiple of 3.7V
2.4GHz is common in remote control
 

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