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17:00
I'm still at the start of the game.
@RMartinhoFernandes Say hello to Tolfdir from me when you meet him. :P
user784668
@DomagojPandža But the College of Winterhold doesn't mind necromancy.
I'm still trying to decide if my character gives a shit about the world.
@RMartinhoFernandes the copy constructor is already deleted isn't it?
After the incident with five students who tried to spawn some Daedra, it was banned officially.
17:02
@JohannesSchaublitb Oh, maybe, in that particular case.
anyway, deleting the copy ctor will not do what you want
it will still select the template. that another function is deleted won't care the template
user784668
@DomagojPandža [citation needed]
Perhaps banned is a bit of a harsh word, extreme caution is recommended.
Let me check the Internets
@Pubby String args[] really does work in Java (it's an alternative to String[] args.). That trips many people up.
@JohannesSchaublitb Won't overload resolution pick the deleted one?
17:05
@RMartinhoFernandes why should it?
" = delete" won't make the function be preferred
template <typename T>
void f(T);
void f(int) = delete;
f(10); // you're saying this compiles?
@Fanael elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Daedric_Relic This is the one from the incident, there's mention of acting against such reckless actions. Necromancy is viable, but not recommended. Damn, it's been a long time.
@RMartinhoFernandes no
user784668
@JohannesSchaublitb Doesn't not being a template already make the function preferred over templates?
Then what's the difference?
17:07
but not because of "= delete", but because the second if is a non-template function
!next
So, declaring a deleted copy ctor should work the same, no?
I'm confused.
because the copy ctor has only a single parameter type
so only for a single argument type and value category it will be a better match than the template
Oh, it would pick the template for T&?
17:08
for sure.
foo x = y;
@JohannesSchaublitb Ok, thanks.
@Pubby Good news, it was not silly after all!
lulz
"= delete" also won't prevent overload resolution matching the function
but if you use SFINAE, the function will not be matched
@JohannesSchaublitb Yeah, that makes it more useful.
@DeadMG pretty sure, yes
which will make a difference if you have "void f(OneType); void f(AnotherType);" and only one of the parameter's constructor matches
17:10
@FredOverflow Where? I couldn't find that.
i'm glad you haven't lost all your c++11 knowledge!
I've always wondered how SFINAE is pronounced in English (the acronym). In my native language, it's quite simple. Any idea?
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm pretty sure there is a table somewhere in the standard that says that *it is an lvalue. But I have no reference (as of yet).
Ell
Ell
I read it as "sfinee" - I have no idea though
17:11
@FredOverflow Such table says it is of type reference.
Neuspjeh substitucije nije pogreška NSNP
AFAICS reference doesn't have to actually be a reference.
But @JohannesSchaublitb is here, let's ask him :P
lol i've no idea. im not english
ah you are about that
IIRC *it doesn't have to be an lvalue
If it were so, boost::irange would not be feasible in the standard concepts.
Aye, can return a proxy.
17:13
that makes it more useful for stuff like stream iterators that return on-the-fly values.
but i'm a lib noob
I think the intent is that the return type is convertible to reference.
I ask because I was once in a meeting with foreign colleagues and I wanted to discuss something. Evading custom-made pronounciation, I just used the full term.
At the very least value_type.
reference, I checked that.
Probably would've missed and made them laugh if I had done anything else.
17:15
my iterator would not work if it required an lvalue
because it returns a proxy object that can grow or shrink the space when operator= is called
Yes, it would be overly restrictive for... what gain?
@RMartinhoFernandes And the table under 23.2.1 says that X::reference is an lvalue of T, and that X::const_reference is a const lvalue of T.
@RMartinhoFernandes Proxies!
@LucDanton That's not a gain from restricting it to lvalues.
IIRC it was different for some iterator categories
Ell
Ell
17:16
@DomagojPandža don't take my word for it I have no idea how to to pronounce it either
like, forward iterators require it to be lvalues or something
@FredOverflow Ah, sorry, I was not strictly correct in my reply above. It has to be convertible to reference.
If *it returns by value, it is convertible to T const&.
@RMartinhoFernandes Is *it actually allowed to return by value?
I love that SO has people who are actually obsessed with the standard specification. Much better than dealing with the usual herp derps.
17:17
@FredOverflow That's what I'm arguing for. I can't find something that prevents it.
if so then the popular &*it trick surely is broken.
No, wait. Forget anything I said.
I should just go play something.
Thinking isn't working today.
make a C++16 monad. i do not wanna see the fail coming!
17:19
I'm confusing with it[n].
@JohannesSchaublitb I've mentioned it before: monads without neat syntax support are not that interesting.
I tend to think the most when I play. Facial animation, character animation, efficiently done sufficient draw distance. Hah, sufficient efficient.
I'm hungry.
user784668
class CxxMonad m where
  fail :: m a
  biggerFail :: m
Alright, that's it, Bastion is my game of the year.
I can't get enough of that sexy narration and awesome soundtrack.
@EtiennedeMartel now your message is mine xD I linespliced it
@Fanael I'm curious. Is the m without parameters at the end on purpose?
@JohannesSchaublitb Yeah, but you're probably made out of tomatoes.
And tomato men can't slice my messages.
user784668
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, it's a bigger fail, after all.
Input iterators: "*a convertible to T". Output iterators: "*r = o is valid". Forward iterators: "*r++ returns reference".
Ha! I wasn't completely wrong!
what did I say xD
forward iterators are multipass so it's not too surprising that the "*it" returns an identity
Gosh, people actually think they can learn to program from YouTube.
YouTube and YouCode
At the same time.
17:30
I watched some C++ videos when I was starting out
It was more helpful to see how to set up VS than it was to learn C++
I often find that I need resizable array that keeps its entries sorted. I.e std::vector that behaves like a std::set.
That's what I've been postponing.
Didn't @MooingDuck have one of those?
@StackedCrooked You can postpone later. Write it now!
@Pubby He does have lots of vector-related stuffs.
17:32
Postpone is a strange word, Is there a prepone? Just pone?
Does it mean pwn a post?
@RMartinhoFernandes You sure can with the right videos!
@FredOverflow Oh, an actual lecture might work.
@RMartinhoFernandes Even though it involves Java and throwing sugar around, you can actually learn something from this video :)
17:40
> In this lecture, Prof. Cain discusses C and C++ programming codes
@TonyTheLion Cool
NOOOOOOO! They said "codes"!
The one responsible for uploading that stuff is probably incompetent. But Prof. Cain is really good.
noooooooooooo, we don't want to talk about "teh codez"
There's bad grammar in the description, therefore the video sucks.
17:41
@RMartinhoFernandes Don't be fooled by the description.
@FredOverflow Yeah, I'm joking :)
Don't judge a cover by its book or something :)
May 8 at 12:31, by R. Martinho Fernandes
(I rarely use exclamation marks when I'm serious)
@TonyTheLion All manner of codez all up in this bitch
17:45
Someone should make a C++-faq about platform flags and macros. They're very confusing.
At a C++ course the instructor said that the preferred way of defining friend functions is outside of class scope. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?
@Pubby Not really my thing.
@StackedCrooked ADL or something.
@StackedCrooked Because syntactically, inline friend functions can be mistaken for member functions very easily? Dunno.
If you define it in class it can only be found through ADL. Or something like that.
really?
17:48
Personally I prefer to write operator< and operator== as friend functions inside the class scope. This way all functionality is neatly bundled in one scope.
@RMartinhoFernandes Seems like a defect to me.
@StackedCrooked For operators it's fine.
Never heard of that book before. The black art of programming? lol
@awoodland Great, thanks
17:51
Random thing I've been debating: If you're not writing using namespace foo; and so you explicitly write foo::... where needed would you still write foo:: even if it's going to get found via ADL anyway?
If it's a qualified name, ADL doesn't apply.
@awoodland ADL is the scum of the earth and should never be used if possible.
explicit qualification > ADL by miles
Oh, the macro to find out if compiled with c++ compiler is __cplusplus? I always thought it was __CPLUSPLUS. Or is the preprocessor case insensitive? :)
If my class constructor takes a vector and directly stores it to a member variable, should I pass the vector by const ref or by value? If I take it by value should I use std::move to store it?
I thought lowercase was correct
17:53
I've only ever seen lowercase
@StackedCrooked Value and yes.
@StackedCrooked The latter.
@DeadMG Even for operators?
it's basically perfect forwarding on the vector, but you don't have to write two overloads or a template.
@Pubby If calling them explicitly wasn't such a silly hassle...
@FredOverflow it's lowercase according to § 16.8 of n3290
@StackedCrooked If you want to write C++03 compatible code, you can also pass by value and then swap with your member vector in the constructor body. Practically the same performance as std::move.
17:54
@DeadMG But what about scenarios like this: std::vector<int> data; Holder holder1(data); Holder holder2(data);
Works fine.
Taking it by value copies.
I see. Because I don't use std::move there.
@StackedCrooked You do use std::move, but you move from the copies, not from the original.
guys
why don't we close those questions with silly restrictions as part of some nutty professor's homework as too localized?
17:56
Are you litb?
@FredOverflow I see. That makes sense.
@RMartinhoFernandes No.
The moved-from copies will be destroyed at the end of the constructor.
GUYS, I'm litb!
6
@StackedCrooked Prove it with template code.
17:57
Nah, I feel lazy today.
@DeadMG Depends on how silly they are.
The usual "no stdlib" restriction is, unfortunately, too widely applicable for me to think "too localized" is fair :(
I don't think that at all
@StackedCrooked Lazy? Prove it with Haskell code.
virtually every implementation provides a stdlib
But many homework assignments forbid its use.
18:01
Real programmers forbid homework assignments.
Anybody has a pure blues rock song they'd like to share? :$
@RMartinhoFernandes Homework assignments is not the general use of C++, and only some of them forbid the stdlib.
TMP is not the general use of C++ either, let's forbid that too!
Most homework assignments sell C under the name C++
@DeadMG I'm assuming properly tagged questions.
18:07
@RMartinhoFernandes If you tag C++, you mean C++.
If you tag you mean C++ homework.
not if "homework" means "Not really C++".
@FredOverflow Intense!
@DeadMG So? What if I tag ?
Oh, that was low. :Đ
18:09
I'm pretty sure that most programmers using VS do not ask VS-specific questions
Some ain't most.
At least those that do know that MSVC is... hum... crippled.
@RadekdaknokSlupik "Too localized" doesn't mean "not the majority".
besides, MSVC is less localized
I mean, for MSVC, there are N people using it
for "Stupid professor Y's idiotic assignment X", there's probably one person on the site using it- the questioner
Basic functionality in my bug tracker works. Awesommmmeeez.
18:12
MSVC is not that bad. Questionable morals, maybe. Disrespectful to new standards, maybe. Allows assigning temporaries to non-const references as a feature, maybe. Allows for /W4 to solve that, maybe.
Okay, it's bad.
I agree some homework questions are in that bucket. But I don't agree for those with SSCCEs and explicitly mentioned limits.
2
It's just like any other question with a limited environment. Like "I have problem X, but I can't upgrade compiler because stupid manager Y".
How do monad transformers 'inherit' their sub monads?
They eat them.
@Pubby We have a Haskell chat, you know.
@RMartinhoFernandes I'd be kind of inclined to close that too.
depending on how old the compiler is
18:13
Haskell chat is dead, long live C++ (and Haskell) chat!
Haskell is for functional pussies.
isn't freezing a room for inactivity kinda like shooting someone for having cancer?
3
@Pubby I'm not sure I understand that question.
@DeadMG More like shooting someone in a coma.
18:15
@DeadMG it makes sense though when you encourage people to set up rooms for one-off conversations - you promote the active lively places and downgrade the things that are past their sell by date
Freezing a room for inactivity is like burning a room for activity.
@RMartinhoFernandes If I combine ReaderT and StateT don't I end up something that works with ask and get?
Each transformer provides things like instance MonadReader inner => MonadReader (StateT inner) where ...
what even are monads good for?
the only thing I've seen is "Mathematical wankery. Also, this Error monad, after including pages and pages and pages of mathematical wankery, is now basically exceptions."
@DeadMG I always thought they were a hack for things with side-effects in "pure" functions
18:18
Mathematical wankery is the best type of wankery amongst many communities of wankers.
@awoodland They're usually for expressing all kinds of control flow in FP, regardless of purity.
instance MonadReader r m => MonadReader r (Lazy.StateT s m) where
    ask   = lift ask
    local = Lazy.mapStateT . local
    reader = lift . reader
Want the notion of mathematical functions, invent monads still.
How does that get StateT's stuff? :S
@DomagojPandža I disagree. At least, regular sexual wankery doesn't try to force itself on other people.
18:20
@Pubby lift.
whereas mathematical wankers are like mind rapists, trying to force you to act in a certain way
@RMartinhoFernandes Where's the definition of lift? I can't find it.
Regardless of the appeal I feel for functional programming, Haskell really doesn't attract me. Don't know why, actually. I prefer the "classic" approach, for now.
@RMartinhoFernandes So it converts it to the 'sub-monad'?
Kinda like implicit casting in C++?
user425495
18:23
Does anyone make use of new C++11 features in QtCreator? I compile fine but Qt red underlines my correct syntax (like range based for loops)
I don't know of any IDE that doesn't get totally batshit insane with many C++11 features.
I use vim with a custom syntax file.
Xcode only has trouble with initializer lists.
I can't find my damn suit in the closet. I hate formal occasions.
user425495
yeah I might switch from working on ubuntu over to my mac for xcode
dunno, ideone has no squiggles :)
18:24
It's what you call an IDE.
@Pubby lift? No, lift converts from the base to the transformed monad.
Sir, may I have your driver's license and IDE?
Here. It's Visual Studio, sir.
@RadekdaknokSlupik Hehe, I finally got vim to stop complaining about those. Initially I had to disable the redding completely.
@RMartinhoFernandes Hm, how do you go the other way then? Do you have to use runFooT?
@DomagojPandža Maybe your suit has come out of the closet?
18:27
Hexapoda uses MongoDB, and is therefore web scale.
@FredOverflow Anything could happen, short from marrying a skirt.
Or a skirt with lasers!
hmmmm
according to some posters on the BNet forums, Blizzard deliberately changed the loot rolls so that you would be much less likely to get decent items for your character in order to push up the AH and RMAH (on which they make real money).
I wish that it didn't sound quite so believable
18:30
I'm going out, buying OJ. See you guys later.
Bye
@FredOverflow You can't drop a random acronym in the room and leave! Now people will be wondering what it means until you come back!
}} Orenthal James "O. J." Simpson (born July 9, 1947), nicknamed "The Juice", is a retired American college and professional football player, football broadcaster and actor. Simpson was a running back, the American Football League's Buffalo Bills' first overall pick in the 1969 Common Draft, and the first professional football player to rush for more than 2,000 yards in a season, a mark he set in 1973. While five other players have passed the 2,000 rush yard mark he stands alone as the only player to rush for more than 2,000 yards in a fourteen-game season (professional football changed ...
@RMartinhoFernandes Hint: OJ does not stand for Objective Java.
@RMartinhoFernandes It's common in the States, afaik
18:57
hey
what's up

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