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16:00
What's the point of having separate function names for char const* and wchar_t const*?
It's from the C library.
@RadekdaknokSlupik They're C functions.
C has wchar_t?
yep
16:01
right
to offer mutable iterator interface?
user784668
down
16:03
@DeadMG For code units? I wouldn't.
I don't think it's worth the effort to get right.
user784668
@RMartinhoFernandes No, code points.
Oh. That one takes effort too, but it would be interesting.
Morning.
Afternoon heat is a curse when trying to sleep.
'morning, SC.
16:10
It's raining here.
:P
I want rain. :(
It's fun to sleep when it's raining.
i wrote mutable UTF8 iterators some time ago
We're in for a classic 3 month stretch of stupendously high temperatures.
16:12
see, I don't really get this
oh nm
Twilight comes to Skyrim - Dawnguard.
Left-associative and right-associative are not associative. How does that make sense?
well, because they're three different things
left-associative means "To be correct, it's left.", right-associative means "To be correct, it's right." and associative means "Who fucking cares? It's correct either way."
Yeah, well the naming is confusing
Associative should be renamed who-fucking-cares-associative
I personally think of associative as just left-associative and right-associative
like neutron = electron + proton
i will say it...
2....
1....
FOLKS!
lol
@DeadMG That's called hydrogen, not neutron.
@RadekdaknokSlupik Uh, no. Hydrogen is a proton and an electron, not a...
it's a different kind of combination
If you're talking about β- decay, you forgot an anti neutrino.
that's atomic, and the neutron is subatomic
16:19
my fiance goes "pew pew".
@RadekdaknokSlupik Which can go faster than the speed of anti-light!
@MooingDuck You're marrying a laser?
3
user784668
@RadekdaknokSlupik That's called protium.
I now have four fun projects to work on. :(
user784668
@RadekdaknokSlupik Make a fifth one.
No, I just started on the fourth one.
And the third one I started on yesterday.
16:20
hmm, phone functionality is highly limited. Cant seem to reply or star or anything
@MooingDuck You can only star already-starred messages.
user784668
@MooingDuck Why are you using a phone?
To call people, døh.
beware the phone chat is highyl using your bandwidth
it takes like 1MB per minute
user784668
@RadekdaknokSlupik ø yourself.
because I'm at the fiances house and havent booted my laptop.
Why do people make such ugly GUIs? Are they blind or something?
I don't discriminate. I'm just asking two questions.
Discrimination is a crime.
@RadekdaknokSlupik Which isotope of hydrogen? :P As Fanael says, it's protium. Neutrons are actually composed of two up quarks and one down quarkie. Schools tend to simplify and state various stuff like "neutron is composed out of a proton and an electron and antineutrino". More specifically, an anti-el-neutrino. But this is not a topic about nuclear physics, DeadMG just wanted to associate it to a simple common ground (which is not necessarily physically correct).
And crime is for… okay never mind.
I think my toe is bleeding, god damn door.
Am I going to die?
16:26
@DomagojPandža Hydrogen-1, døh.
@DomagojPandža Yep.
Explicitness, my dear. :P
I'm thinking about building a l4z0r again.
man
Further my plans for world domination.
who'da thunk that a String class would be so much code?
16:28
@DomagojPandža Good. Then all we'll have to do is dominate you.
I'm on like 300 lines and all I've done is validate and wrap a u16string
user784668
@DeadMG What String class?
@DeadMG You thought it would be easy?
@RMartinhoFernandes or kill.
@Fanael The one I'm writing.
as it is painfully hard to find a String class which already exists that serves my needs
16:29
Text manipulation is the shittiest part of a project.
mostly because ICU's interface sucks cock, at best, and there are pretty much no other platform-independent libraries which offer the manipulation I need
It's hard to believe since everything revolves around it.
@RadekdaknokSlupik Killing is just an extreme form of dominating
my utf8 iterators that allow manipulation are slow :)
It's time to start working on Hexapoda.
16:29
@JohannesSchaublitb Surprise
they use integer indices for iterating. because using pointers would not work
@RadekdaknokSlupik I'd rather leave that unspecified.
@RadekdaknokSlupik What, you have too many bugs flying loose?
@RadekdaknokSlupik Woot, you kept my suggestion!
@sehe No, writing specs is boring.
16:30
You're writing a bug tracker without a spec?
@JohannesSchaublitb Why wouldn't it work?
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, I even made a logo for it representing a bug.
@RMartinhoFernandes No, the spec is almost complete.
@RadekdaknokSlupik Pics or it didn't happen.
@DeadMG because writing a new value into a character may shrink or grow the byte count
so it would invalidate any other iterator pointing at a character
16:31
at least those pointing after the modified character
so? that's just going to have to be the semantics of inserting more than one code unit into a Unicode string
@RadekdaknokSlupik Oh, that looks cool.
Why can't people sit the fuck down and standardize the way we approach textual information on computer systems.
@RadekdaknokSlupik reminds of a pokeball
@RadekdaknokSlupik That could be cropped... somewhat
16:32
@RMartinhoFernandes thanks!
It's so damn painful.
user784668
@DomagojPandža They did. It's called Unicode.
i don't understand
@JohannesSchaublitb What I'm saying is that if you're inserting a code point into a non-UTF32-encoded string, then there is nothing you can do about invalidating the later iterators
16:33
@DomagojPandža Looking hard for that 15th competing standard, eh?
@Fanael Not enough. There is still too many discrepancies.
what if the container needs to resize or someshit like that?
@sehe it's already off the screen now.
@bamboon Pokéballs with legs?
@RadekdaknokSlupik Doesn't change a thing
user784668
@DomagojPandža Then romanize every single script.
16:33
@DeadMG yes you can. you can use index instead of pointers
then the other ones are not invalidated
@JohannesSchaublitb They are still invalidated, as they do not point to what was originally pointed to.
you just won't get UB when you de-reference them
I don't know, I'd rather devise culling algorithms for 10 hours then fight a war how C++ sees strings and how Microsoft sees strings.
@sehe I cannot edit the message, but here is the cropped version.
16:34
@RadekdaknokSlupik if you make a circle around the whole thing, yes.
Puppy dislikes, sorry @sehe.
@bamboon lol
if i replace one character with another character, when an iterator pointed to character 5, it afterwards still points to character 5
what is being invalidated?
@RadekdaknokSlupik I saw it the first time. Erase plix.
are you saying if you have string s= "hello"; s[0] = "b"; you afterwards cannot anymore say "s[1]" ?
@JohannesSchaublitb That would be ugly.
16:35
@JohannesSchaublitb you cannot do that.
@JohannesSchaublitb Unless on every access you iterate through the whole string to find the N'th codepoint?
@DeadMG that's what I do
hence I said it's slow :)
but it works
I'm pretty sure that violates the complexity constraints
16:36
Why is random access so important?
Keep an extra vector std::vector<char*> for random access.
user784668
Why do you think you need codepoints?
i don't care about complexity constraints
@RMartinhoFernandes It's not. I don't offer random access either. But there's a difference between not offering random access, and *it being O(N).
16:37
no. for read-only I wrote fast iterators doing it with pointers
Iterators are a lie. So is cake.
Delicious... Moist... Cake.
it would be easier to simply back it with UTF32 and stick to regular pointers
@DeadMG the good thing is that "++" and "--" are faster
Use std::string, they said. All of your problems will go away, they said.
my colleague said he wants UTF8.
16:39
although I have little choice about doing UTF-16, as I need ICU's support and it's UTF16 only
i would not do that but he thinks it's better to use UTF8 internally
@DomagojPandža Depends on what you need it for.
there's nothing wrong with using std::string for UTF8. It just can't validate it. Or perform non-trivial operations on it. But it can contain it and concatenate it and do simple operations on it fine.
@DeadMG perhaps I could store in a bit flag whether the string is ASCII-only ?
@RadekdaknokSlupik I hope you have it vector style: downloads.sehe.nl/stackoverflow/hexapoda2.svg
then at the first "grow" operation i will set that bit to 0 and won't ever set it to 1 again
that will speed up the vast majority of cases that start with an ASCII string
16:40
@sehe I have it as a vector, yes. I created it in OmniGraffle. The vectorized PDF version is in the GH repo.
I think I'll have to create an additional level of indirection between me and the actual low-level stuff which I don't want to think about when I'm actually working on an application.
There's always some problem popping out.
@DomagojPandža I'm actually considering re-writing almost all of the Standard library.
@RadekdaknokSlupik :)
I'm going to need something stronger for Wide anyway... so considering just writing it now and taking advantage of the parts that can be done in C++
@JohannesSchaublitb Where are these unicode string impls? Is there a generally recommended implementation (e.g. proposed for Boost?)
16:43
But what fascinates me is: IT'S TEXT. Just basic, stupid text. Why does it have to be so stubborn?
@sehe i have no idea :(
@DomagojPandža Because it was invented by humans, duh.
@ScottW Good mawning to you then
i like to say that humans have a good internal interface. we know next to nothing about the human implementation yet we can move our body as we want. that's the way software needs to be written. one component needs to know nothing about others.
Let's prove that the template system is Turing-complete, they said. It'll be fun, they said.
16:45
It is.
Fun.
@DomagojPandža Because whilst English text is super-simple and managable, many languages have very many arcane rules about grammar and case and such things.
like different capitalizations at the end of a word.. that sort of thing
@DeadMG True, but the language of computing ought to be English. Nothing else.
it is
the languages of the users of computing, though...
@DomagojPandža And the interface?
And the interface.
16:46
LOLcode is english...
Everything.
@JohannesSchaublitb That's depressing. Somehow I think by now we should be able to come up with something. Is Unicode really that daunting that the C++ community doesn't embark upon it? Or is it just not C++-ish enough (too complicated for too little gain? Too high cost for too few benefits?)
Ell
Ell
hi guys
i have no idea
im a unicode noob
@sehe Use ICU. That's what everyone says.
Ell
Ell
16:47
I'm a unicode noob!
@Ell Hi. You left the mumble room in 30 minutes :)
@sehe As far as I can tell, it's like GUI- people just can't be arsed to write useful libraries in it.
can you iterate UTF8 with SSE ?
@RMartinhoFernandes Possible, but not really useful (unless it has a C++ string class, these days?)
@DeadMG That's what I thought
i mean, for op[]
16:47
why oh why the Standard failed to provide decent Unicode support again, IDK.
@sehe Yes, it has a C++ interface.
It suxorz, but exists.
@RMartinhoFernandes Not really. It has a C-with-classes interface.
@DeadMG Perhaps Microsoft would push for it. Seems something that would fit Interop and Metro style
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh that's news to me. I'll have to give it a look
there's nothing language or platform dependent about Unicode, and there's no reason that a decent C++ Unicode implementation cannot exist, but nobody quite seems to care enough to do it because Unicode is such a bitch.
@sehe Wear goggles.
16:49
@RMartinhoFernandes Do they 'do' something?
@DeadMG and it would fit the theme of 'More batteries included' C++
They do nothing.
@RMartinhoFernandes I see an opportunity to save on investments then. No need to devise goggles
Ell
Ell
16:49
I don't understand the whole thing with unicode - maybe because text has always "just worked" for me - being english and needing nothing special.
@Ell Yeah, that's those of us who are fortunate.
English are just ignorant.
(That's not an insult btw)
@Pubby EEEAEAK It's Java. It should be forbidden
those of us who need to iterate through extended grapheme clusters in Vietnamese, though...
Unicode has a lot of quirks and those quirks come to rape you.
16:50
@RMartinhoFernandes That would be a subjective assessment
Ell
Ell
But I mean - what does it mean for something to "be unicode"? Can the c++ compiler not understand unicode?
@sehe It's an objective generalization when taken in context.
in c++ \Uxxxxxxxx is unicode
Obviously, the need for that last part made instant starbait.
tho i guess it is not defined what encoding it ends up with at runtime
16:52
C++ can understand it. But nobody gave a rat's ass to do so. So you have a bunch of people approaching text in their own retarded ways and you have to appease everyone.
Step 1, step 2, suffer, profit.
I think I've been doing something stupid in my code for some time now.
Really silly.
And that thing is...?
I'm embarassed to say it.
Ell
Ell
I'm sure I've done worse
I still need to confirm it was silly anyway.
16:54
You wouldn't have brought it up if you didn't want to tell us!
I like trains.
And...
Nevermind.
i like neverminds too
It's for preventing that ctor from being used for copies. Why I did not just delete the copy constructor, I can't fathom.
Ell
Ell
I fail to see how that is silly. This probably just shows my c++ noobiness as I have no idea what is going on
16:57
It's template necromancy.
All of it is silly, if you consider the history of the concept, but still useful.
AHAHAHAHAHA
@DomagojPandža Come on, don't gimme that crap. It's quite readable. Just because it has the word template in it, it doesn't become instantly unreadable.
No, no, I love it. It's very clever in general, but it's still necromancy. Some schools of magic might not approve.
For example, College of Winterhold.
user784668
@RMartinhoFernandes Macros are always more readable than Perl, and Perl is always more readable than templates!
16:59
@DomagojPandža Oh. Those references are (for now) still going over my head.

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