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18:02
Include directories have been handled by adding the entire folder of include header files by Project->C/C++->General->Additional Include Directories->Path to includes folder. and the library directory path by Project->Linker->Input ->Additional Dependencies->Path to library.
But when I click on additional dependencies, Im only able to edit the path to StanfordCPPLIb and it does not appear in the list along with kernel32.lib or other lib files
@DomagojPandža^
ie. StanfordCPPLib does not appear in the 'inherited values' listing
Include directories can only show it the path to your header files, you need to go to VC++ Directories in Configuration Properties
and add your path to the actual .lib file
to the "Library Directories"
What's the difference between comp.lang.c++ and comp.lang.c++.moderated?
Has the latter got mods?
@DomagojPandža "Your header files promise existence, but the linker cannot resolve." Such a beautiful statement, on so many levels.
@CaptainGiraffe It's like an ex-girlfriend. You get a bunch of header files that show so much potential, but when you try to use them, you find out the libs are missing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_newsgroup#Moderated_newsgroups They seem to post contributions to another address, then the mods repost. (Disclaimer era 1984 style)
@DomagojPandža Not bad =) : Any philosophical argument that entails "are we the product of a simulation?", I really don't care as long as I have the headers.
I once wrote the header "cheatcodes.hidden.h" void* modify(void** world), that made me win the game. It compiled too!
18:16
I wish the BBC was more objective
they print a news story about some guy groping some girl, and the only reason it's news is because that guy plays sport
@DeadMG Rooney again?
they don't charge for content, so it irks me that they sink to popularist celebrity-cock-sucking awful non-stories, instead of stories which have weight to, y'know, the public that funds them.
18:18
"Sports dude gropes girl"
Those topics.
@RMartinhoFernandes "Groped girl: -The dude did sports!!!"
@RadekdaknokSlupik "Sex Toys"
comp.lang.ruby
18:20
> Giving evidence from behind a screen, the woman told the court she felt a hand grab her bottom and turned round.
WTF.
That's courthouse matter?
Yep journalism seems to have crashed and burned along with wikileaks, not sure if there is any connection.
@RMartinhoFernandes It is if she don't want it.
@RMartinhoFernandes In Sweden it might be if the grab is unwelcome. At least a police matter.
anyway, the point is, the only reason this story was ever run is because the guy is some semi-professional idiot
and it disgusts me to think of my taxes being wasted on reporting it
@DomagojPandža: god this thing is driving me crazy , I started a new project, added the path of the include files in the VC++ directories-> by modifying both Include directories and Library directories , then I went down to C/C++->General->Additional Include Directories ,added the path of the includes. Followed by Linker->Input->Additional Dependencies-path to lib file. I really dont know what Im missing D:
18:22
@DeadMG You pay taxes already?
Damn, can't find that one video of the news blooper where the guy was talking about sports when he was supposed to be reporting a rape case.
if you buy shit, you pay tax on it
@CaptainGiraffe Oh, I can understand police being involved. Dragging it into courts seems totally overkill, though.
income tax is not the only tax
@DeadMG Oh, right VAT. Nevermind.
18:22
@DeadMG Hey dead, the BBC rocks hard. Think about all the shows that are such a fresh of breath air compared to the US junk we get (maybe not HBO included)
@CaptainGiraffe A pity that I pay to make all of them, and a few percent at best are not utter rubbish
@RMartinhoFernandes It's a balance between telling the guy "you're a jerk" to its a threatening action. but yes.
@DeadMG You got pretty high standards.
@EtiennedeMartel Since I'm paying, I'm fine to have standards w.r.t that sort of thing.
@KodeSeeker No path in additional dependencies, if VC++ directories are properly set, just type in StanfordCPPLib.lib
18:24
But that could be the bias of someone living in a country where courts are totally full with stupid crap making all the bad cases drag forever.
I also object to government taxes paying for idiots to run round a track, or stare at a piece of "art"
or the giant waste which is the Olympics
@DeadMG Top gear vs the British army are top notch entertainment if you ask me =) Also the intellectual stuff is very good by any reasonable comparison you can make.
Sometimes they take sooooooo long that they prescribe.
@RMartinhoFernandes You don't? SO is mostly students, it seems. :D
@DeadMG The olympics is another story.
18:25
@DomagojPandža I do.
@CaptainGiraffe No, it's exactly the same story.
"Public taxpayer foots giant bill so idiots can run around."
@DomagojPandža: just realised this shit doesnt work with VS 2010; downloading VS 2008 , Gah.
I mean, I don't because I'm exempt. Or at least I would be if I had filed my papers correctly.
public money should be reserved for things which are important to everybody, not entertainment
@DeadMG k different budgets.
18:26
@DeadMG Yeah, but who decides what's important to everybody? And entertainment is important.
@EtiennedeMartel He does. Duh.
Science, med. care, social stuff
Public money should fund stuff that is too risky for private companies to handle (when it comes to entertainment)
@EtiennedeMartel This is key for any public service provider.
@EtiennedeMartel Entertainment is important. But a specific form of entertainment is only important to those who prefer it- and should be funded that way.
@EtiennedeMartel Maybe a bunch of that stuff simply shouldn't be funded.
if we killed all the BBC entertainment programs which are successful, all that will happen is C4, ITV or Sky will pick them up, they won't die or anything
18:27
Most of art simply wouldn't be possible without public funding.
@EtiennedeMartel I'm fine with that too.
It would be nice if one could address the specific thing he wants his tax money to fund.
@DeadMG I'm a Swede, I like our system, similar to yours. I pay about a 1/4 pound a day.
@DeadMG Aaaaand that's where I'm pretty certain we can't agree.
How much do you pay?
18:28
@DomagojPandža I want my taxes to fund myself.
if the British people don't want to pay to enter a gallery, then they've made their decision.
using public money to cover up the funding deficit is just ignoring the problem that "art" is not, generally, worth the cost.
Right, but when you can't fund yourself and have to give it away anyways, don't you prefer to have a say where the hell it goes
@DeadMG Many of my friends are artists. I guess that's probably why I disagree with you.
nah
you probably just haven't thought of all the starving children we could feed with that money instead
18:30
@EtiennedeMartel I want to support your friends on general principle.
or teachers or nurses we could hire
@DeadMG We could stop wasting food. And maybe tax the banks a bit more.
@DeadMG sure I'd be hired for another month at the current rate.
agreed on both those points, but neither of them changes my fundamental point
Compare the size of expenses MG.
18:31
Is this undefined or unspecified behavior?
void f(int,int);
f(i,i++);
actually, my expenses are pretty slim
undefined.
And anyway, I'm pretty sure that public funding for art is not the biggest part of the budget for any country.
but since my parents and the govt are filling the bill for the lot of it, I feel kinda under pressure
@Pubby It is explicit in the standard they are not evaluated in a specified manner.
18:31
@EtiennedeMartel Of course not. But throwing money away is not OK just because it's not a significant amount.
@CaptainGiraffe So wouldn't that be unspecified?
@CaptainGiraffe That does not make UB.
Or we could stop fantasizing about what could be and concentrate on making products that allow us to live like human beings. :Đ
else every function call would be UB
@DeadMG It's not being thrown away. Art is useful. Hell, art is essential for any society.
18:32
@EtiennedeMartel I've seen no scientific studies to that effect.
I'm missing reading this literally?
I checked the Wikipedia page and this is an example of unspecified:
It's a data race.
decl + call?
#include <iostream>
int f() {
  std::cout << "In f\n";
  return 3;
}

int g() {
  std::cout << "In g\n";
  return 4;
}

int sum(int i, int j) {
  return i + j;
}

int main() {
  return sum(f(), g());
}
18:33
@CaptainGiraffe Undefined and unspecified are two different things
The two accesses to i are not sequenced, and one of them modifies it. Hence data race. Hence UB.
It depends how arguments are taken in
@DeadMG for sure
@DeadMG I think you should get out more.
@Pubby That example does not include modifying the same variable.
18:33
It modifies cout
@EtiennedeMartel So in other words, you have an utterly subjective feeling in this regard?
@Pubby With explicit sequence points in the user-defined functions.
@DeadMG Yeah, as I said earlier.
@K-ballo - unless I'm missing something I thought you always needed it: ideone.com/7hPix and ideone.com/eThkd - might be some compiler extension perhaps? — awoodland 4 mins ago
Am I missing something?
@EtiennedeMartel See, I don't have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with being made to pay for it.
@DeadMG What? Sequence points in the functions are irrelevant.
18:34
@DeadMG All I saw was f(i,i++);
@Pubby It's the lack of a sequence point in his arguments which makes it UB.
@Pubby f() and g() cannot be evaluated concurrently.
But it's not modifying the value twice
@Pubby Pretty sure that reading twice and modifying once is still UB
Are we getting trolled?
18:35
i = i + i is UB then?
Or is that a sequence point? :S
The addition and the assignment are sequenced.
fuck
I lost the bobble thing that goes on my microphone
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure you don't pay that much.
@awoodland You only need the parenthesis if the argument is a type.
@RMartinhoFernandes Then why is i = i++ UB? :S
18:37
@EtiennedeMartel Other people pay more. I'm not allowed to be upset on behalf of them? But more relevantly, it's my money and I expend it how I choose, no matter what the sum.
@RMartinhoFernandes just found that out - I can't believe I've never found that before!
besides, should I ever solve this thing with my degree and move on to work, then it most assuredly will be a larger sum of my money on the table
> From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
> In all cases, the assignment is sequenced after the value computation of the right and left operands, and before the value computation of the assignment expression.
In light of this, i = i++ seems well-defined to me: a no-op.
18:39
I believe in 11, it is.
This is C we're talking about
actually, my answer was for 03, it might no longer be true in 11
There's no other C++!
@Pubby You could have mentioned that...
Ok, my dad @71years tries to solve Project Euler problems, he has the math intuition easily. What language should he use? He started with java and went "public static ? Scanner? wtf?". Any suggestions?
(Or I could have read it)
No, pretty sure you didn't mention it.
18:40
@CaptainGiraffe You need at least some programming skill to start Project Euler
I didn't want to get whipped for mentioning C!
@DeadMG He taught me basic when I was 7, he did stamped cards back in the 60-70's "The compiling room"
@EtiennedeMartel You only need something if science says you do.
@DeadMG Not really. The first ones can be solved easily on paper.
kinda defies the point, don'tcha think?
18:42
@RMartinhoFernandes The paper computer parallell is quite useful.
> The motivation for starting Project Euler, and its continuation, is to provide a platform for the inquiring mind to delve into unfamiliar areas and learn new concepts in a fun and recreational context.
@CaptainGiraffe Python?
12
A: In C99, is f()+g() undefined or merely unspecified?

Jonathan LefflerThe expression f() + g() contains a minimum of 4 sequence points; one before the call to f() (after all zero of its arguments are evaluated); one before the call to g() (after all zero of its arguments are evaluated); one as the call to f() returns; and one as the call to g() returns. Further, t...

@EtiennedeMartel Thought about it. Its my first choice at this time.
Makes me believe it's unspecified
18:44
I really regret suggesting Java.
@Pubby Bah, in C99 that's probably irrelevant anyway: #include <non_std_header.h> is UB.
Btw, if you were talking about C previously, how come you posted an example with std::cout in it?
@RMartinhoFernandes I was testing you
@RMartinhoFernandes again
@RMartinhoFernandes That particular discussion :) It is /nice/ in a sad kind of way :)
18:53
I'm totally not interested in discussing it again. I was just making a stupid joke.
:)
:)
I'll sound the alarm. I do whenever someone has the audacity to drop the S-bomb or P-bomb
:s/:)/I apologise/g
strangest brand of regex you got there, Captain
18:55
@sehe I have no idea what that means.
SP-bomb?
Come on... you're the robot?
@RMartinhoFernandes S-bomb or P-bomb
@sehe Even though I think php has gotten enough of flak, thats funny!
In C++ it's defined to do comparison between pointers/iterators up to one-over-the end of a container. Is the same true for one-before-the-beginning?
@PaulManta No, think of a segmented, 0 based system
18:59
@CaptainGiraffe Thanks!
@PaulManta Was this a classroom pop quiz?
@CaptainGiraffe No, I just want to find ways to avoid handling special cases.
Why have there been no documented attempts at writing an OS for a GPU before?
But there are! They're called drivers :P
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm referring to something that runs ON the GPU not the CPU.
19:04
@CaptainGiraffe Now that I look at it, it kinds sounds like a pop quiz question. :))
I know, I was joking :)
@IDWMaster Because it's a silly idea.
What advantages would a GPU bring?
OS's use complex data structures with heavy branching and indirection for good algorithmic complexity, which is a bad fit to a GPU
plus, GPUs do not possess the necessary instructions
@DeadMG Why can't these instructions be added to a GPU (and what additional instructions would it need anyways)?
19:06
Someone asked me (why me?) today about @sbi's whereabouts...
I herded up to 7 small (4-7yo) kids today, only two of which were mine. I'm exhausted tonight, but we did have 3 great days in the garden.
the CPU's kernel mode possesses special instructions for things like I/O
and there's no reason to add them to a GPU because a GPU is flat out not suited to the type of computation you see in a kernel
Is it = --container.begin() safe if the very next operation is it++?
@PaulManta No.
You can't fix UB. Once you have it, it's all over.
I wonder if any general-purpose languages could compile for GPU
19:08
@Pubby There is a GPU array module for Haskell.
@PaulManta Depends on the underlying buffer really
There's AMP of sort.
@Pubby That would be a contradiction, a GP language operates on one thread almost by definition.
@CaptainGiraffe Just like C99 and C++03 :P
@Pubby What do you mean? For example, I'm working with strings.
19:09
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, yes.
@Pubby There's CUDA.
Well begin() gives buffer[1] then of course you can go one back
@Pubby Erm, it's not safe unless you make a silly container on purpose.
@Pubby Like that.
@RMartinhoFernandes Bring in Java and C# too, they are all one threaded.
Well it's obviously a stupid idea, but you can still do it
19:10
@Pubby That doesn't apply to std::string though.
no, you can't really write an existing CPU language on the GPU
@CaptainGiraffe Hmm, I don't think so.
for one, there'd be a bunch of file I/O and such libraries which won't work
Both C# and Java even have language level locking constructs.
you'd basically have to write explicitly GPU-focused code
19:10
I doubt they could specify that without threads.
@RMartinhoFernandes sure start a new thread, but it is not in the language
@PaulManta You can use a reverse iterator instead
But the language has the notion of threads. C99 and C++03 don't.
@RMartinhoFernandes the notion of threads is not sufficient, in my opinion. The language itself needs to understand, ie functional, to parallellize.
@CaptainGiraffe What are you smoking?
19:13
WOW! Faulty CUDA programs can cause a kernel-mode driver fault in Windows. So much for "secure graphics drivers".
Well, you said "operates on one thread almost by definition."
Java sucks donkey cock, but it can do parallelism.
C# and Java do not.
C99 and C++03 do.
(user mode programs shouldn't be able to cause a kernel-mode driver fault)
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes
19:15
@IDWMaster We all know that :P
@RMartinhoFernandes : So your argument is Java/C# is not a sequential set of instructions?
My argument is that a Java or C# program does not operate on one thread by definition.
@CaptainGiraffe All programs are that.
Ok, fine.
@CaptainGiraffe Your CPU only operates one way. Thinking it does anything else is just silly.
19:18
sry, lemme rephrase, not all languages are like that.
eh
it's like that "immutable" rubbish
I'd like to see a real program which operates without mutating the registers, or the stack pointer
or the operating system's process table
Mar 28 at 12:15, by DeadMG
when I started coding C++, I used to sneer greatly at immutable objects, but I somehow find myself making great use of them now
@DeadMG I prefer this way of thinking too, the cpu has this, or the von neumann, or the turing
19:19
sorry, I should have been more specific
those languages which pretend everything is immutable
@DeadMG Oh, don't mind the quote then.
there's a difference between "I use immutability" and "MUTABILITY BAD! KILL ALL MUTATION!"
What languages do that?
@DeadMG those languages has no CPU with sta nor lda nor move
@RMartinhoFernandes Zin's language of course
19:21
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't quite recall. It was some "hard" functional language or something.
All functional languages I know have some way to produce impure results, but I must admit I don't know many.
@DeadMG It should be. The hard functional languages has immutability all over
Wich means they can calculate intermediate results without knowing anything else.
parallellization.
nah, it's thoroughly silly
if you take the example on Wikipedia, then it's trivial to do that in a regular old imperative language
Sorry, what example? I have a feeling you guys are resuming some old discussion I'm not aware of.
@DeadMG I'm not telling you they have overcome cpu cycles.
19:24
Purely functional is a term in computing used to describe algorithms, data structures or programming languages that exclude destructive modifications (updates). According to this restriction, variables are used in a mathematical sense, with identifiers referring to immutable, persistent values. Benefits and applications The persistence property of purely functional data structures can be advantageous in the development of many applications that deal with multiple versions of an object. For example, consider a comprehensive web-based thesaurus service that uses a large red-black tree t...
@DeadMG What about Java? Still think it's trivial? :P
@RMartinhoFernandes You can do the example described on the page quite trivially even in Java.
Oh, but the example there is certainly not silly.
of course it's not silly
all I'm saying is that it's not exactly some super advantage
I agree that it doesn't imply only a certain class of languages can do it.
19:28
yeah, it's not like "decent generics" or something like that
or
"The language designer chose not to ejaculate his chosen coding style into your face"
Bananas are great.
19:44
See http://www.zimbu.org/Home/unix-echo-example
Fucking awesome
@sehe UPPERCASE
@IDWMaster Well, back in the days when I started programming on GPU (in assembly), a single mistake would blue screen instantly. And tbh I had quite a bunch of them
@Cicada Some of my errors result in the computer completely freezing (but I fixed those for now)
With CUDA I sometimes have to manually press the reset button on the computer to fix the hang.
@IDWMaster I'm not surprised. GPGPU is improving very fast but I can't really say it's stable for development
What kind of hang are you experiencing though? What card are you programming on?
@Cicada They have a lot better debuggers though, but it certainly is no where close to stable.
19:51
(And what mistakes?)
@Cicada I'm programming on the GeForce GTS 450, and I'm experiencing complete hangs where the screen doesn't update for any applications.
What version of CUDA?
@Cicada 4.2
And what causes the crash?
@Cicada Pointer arithmetic errors.
On the GPU
When referencing shared memory
Or should I say; dereferencing
19:55
Hmmm okay. Must be a pain to debug if you're developping on the same PC you run your application
@Cicada Yeah.
That's the case
And I'm on a 64-bit system
so I can't install the debug drivers
so how exactly
are you even debugging
the sodding thing :D
@ScarletAmaranth I'm running the program; setting a pointer to some output variables, and setting the output variables to different states when I get to different states in the program, and hoping it works.
I can still debug values on the CPU
So you basically can't observe data on the GPU directly ?
So if I copy data over to system memory at intermediate steps and analyze it then, then I can sort of debug it that way.
@ScarletAmaranth Yes.
19:57
@IDWMaster Well that sux :)
Luckily I develop on a separate system (:
The only GPU programming I've done so far is the C++ AMP by MS.
(Well it's quite annoying too, in fact, but at least a crash doesn't affect me)
I've got it to a point where it's at least starting to generate the right output values.
It's fairly easy, you can go hurr durr flinging parallel_for_each() everywhere and everything just happens to automagically work.
19:58
@ScarletAmaranth That sounds cool.
> hurr durr
CUDA is quite complex on the other side
@IDWMaster Yeah it's actually weird, I'd never see that coming from Micro$oft :P
I don't like the approach they take. Mixing low and high level
eet be confus

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