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13:00
> If you’re a twenty-something woman, you’ve probably said this phrase to your friends at least once
@RudiantoPrasetya holy fuck
staff writer too
are you being offended to make a point
@LucDanton sa série sur la démocratie est chouette
> “Men are trash” is simply not the same thing as sexist attacks on women
> because you don’t face the systemic oppression
> If someone calls a woman a bitch or a slut, that’s tinged with millennia of oppression.
> Gizmodo staff writer
@BoundaryImposition "Over the years, many people — including prominent book authors, and the notoriously error-ridden cplusplus.com" Are there any errors/bad practices in the tutorials section of www.cplusplus.com?
13:05
libel & slander detector off the charts
@BoundaryImposition Such as?
haha
@6EQUJ5 I really don't have time to enumerate them here
@6EQUJ5 google it
@BoundaryImposition Oh ok. I learned from there... lol the basics
@Abyx I will.
@6EQUJ5 that explains why you didn't know what const is
13:06
@BoundaryImposition Uhhh. I do know what const is. I was just wondering why it could be modified with cheat engine...
in fairness to the cplusplus.com owner, the reference section isn't too bad (although there are bad practices in some examples) and, a few years ago, after some improvements, I agreed to remove an article about the site from my own blog. but I maintain the random crap posted by random randomers in the forum is just dangerous
@6EQUJ5 what
@6EQUJ5 yes because you didn't know what const is lol
wait until you see you can modify private members in cheat engine too!
hack the planet etc
@BoundaryImposition I knew const qualifier could be used the qualify class member functions as const, variables as const (can't be changed), etc. Are those the real basics then?
13:08
hack the cheerleader, hack the world
@6EQUJ5 const is only from the point of view of the language, not the machine that executes your program, that's outside the language
@RudiantoPrasetya Is volatile only from the point of view of the language too?
@RudiantoPrasetya Is everything in core C++ the same?
what does that even mean
13:09
What's up
@RudiantoPrasetya All the keywords.
@6EQUJ5 Still not making sense
@VermillionAzure Such as int, double, static, friend, etc...
@6EQUJ5 What do you mean "is everything in core C++ the same?"
compared to..?
The same as this: "from the point of view of the language" should have explicitly stated it sorry.
13:11
I'm not sure what you mean, but the contracts guaranteed by the language are only guaranteed by that, the language. Everything outside of that doesn't care in the slightest.
@6EQUJ5 Still not making sense
"from the point of view of the language" what does that even mean?
@VermillionAzure Rudianto got it
There is no other view if you're working in C++ unless you're comparing it to...?
@VermillionAzure there's a history to this convo
13:11
@BoundaryImposition Ah thanks LRiO
@VermillionAzure Boundary said, "const is only from the point of view of the language, not the machine that executes your program, that's outside the language". Are all the keywords in core C++ the same way?
@VermillionAzure np VAz
@BoundaryImposition Did... did you forget my true name?
@6EQUJ5 Well, I didn't say that; I would not have used a comma splice
@VermillionAzure yes
13:12
@6EQUJ5 so I'm boundary now, ok
could be worse I guess
@BoundaryImposition I'm getting really confused... what? Real names... what?
just don't call me cinch/rightfold
@6EQUJ5 I've been here for about 4 years now. Names come and go
huh, chat has gone weird
VAz is listed twice
I don't know why either
13:13
@VermillionAzure are you that cicada person that keeps changing names?
@RudiantoPrasetya looooooooooooooooooool
@BoundaryImposition Sockie
I AM THE CINCH
never heard of it
13:14
oh, yeah, it is a different account
@RudiantoPrasetya Cinch?
@BoundaryImposition Comma splice? I copy pasted.
wtf are you doing
@VermillionAzure what is that?
@6EQUJ5 You copy pasted from someone else: someone who cannot compose English properly
13:14
@BoundaryImposition Oh god Can you explain to him?
@VermillionAzure no I need lunch
ok
@RudiantoPrasetya Once upon a time.
A boy walked into a chat room seeking to learn C++ guru knowledge
he was promptly binned & kicked?
@BoundaryImposition Oh, lol I can't see properly. It was Rudianto...
13:15
Lo and behold, Cinch remained and remained a regular of Lounge<C++>
3 mins ago, by Rudianto Prasetya
@6EQUJ5 so I'm boundary now, ok
that's what he meant by this
And then, Cinch was question banned
@BoundaryImposition Yes, I was getting confused...
He had made such terrible questions that he would never ask another question... AGAIN
And thus, *reincarnation occurred...
13:16
And Cinch lives on in VermillionAzure
holy shit that flag XDDDDDD
@BoundaryImposition bye!
Xeo
Xeo
lol cinch getting his own assessment of himself flagged
10
XDDDDDDDDD
13:16
1 min ago, by VermillionAzure
He was an insufferable noob and prick because he was suck a dumb person. And that person's name was Cinch
(for the record)
5
oh my sides
@Xeo Next level.
> This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for 29 minutes.
Xeo
Xeo
next level stupidity on the flagger part
@Xeo I dunno, I thought it generated just the right amount of lols
anyway, where were we?
13:18
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
nice ban evasion there!
what the heck SO.
drdobbs.com/generic-min-and-max-redivivus/184403774 Anyone know of a simple solution without macros?
But seriously why was I chat banned :(
Xeo
Xeo
cuz people are stupid vOv
the usual
13:19
@Cinch for the lols
sighhhhhhhh
Ugh
Xeo
Xeo
come back in 30 mins
Aren't multiple accounts illegal?
On the other hand, can I get my account merged? I have a lot of good questions on this account but not on the other one
13:20
You could get arrested.
to be fair, the other VermillionAzure is still here so you could just use that
Xeo
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel no, only if you vote-fraud with them
@Cinch sure i'll get right on it
@BoundaryImposition ????????
Xeo
Xeo
13:20
@Cinch ask on Meta Stack Overflow
@Cinch gimme half an hour
I want Cinch ---> VermillionAzure though
Xeo
Xeo
not sure
actually, should be meta.se now, meta.so became a regular meta for just SO-proper
British colonel raped US officer at boozy UN conference in Uganda, court hears https://on.rt.com/8bwi
^ UK fucks US irl
13:24
ok I've done it
it'll take effect within 72 hours
but you can't write any chat messages until it happens, or you'll break the process
@BoundaryImposition ...
> Tomkins, who is an officer in The Rifles regiment, denies committing rape, but says the sex was “fairly animal.”
Actually, I don't think I want them merged
well of course he's brit
Now that I think about it, the question ban might transition over
13:25
@6EQUJ5 perfect forwarding should take care of that, though you'll need some magic to figure out the return type. pretty sure there's a lib utility for it nowadays
@Cinch ffs
user1804599
Lol apparently our king sometimes flies as a pilot for KLM.
user1804599
Because he needs enough flying hours.
I'd rather not the bad rep transfer over. I've just reviewed the stuff and... I dunno.
@rightfold wut? do you live in KSA?
@Cinch banned for talking about why you were banned. Amaze.
13:27
1
A: min and perfect forwarding

Ben VoigtYou don't want perfect forwarding, here, you want to return either T& or const T& and never T&&. std::forward is designed for passing one of your parameters along to another function, not for return values. I think what you want is: template <typename T> min(T&& x, T&& y) -> decltype(x) { ...

@jaggedSpire VermillionAmaze
@jaggedSpire looooooooool ikr
@Cinch tbh your "bad rep" follows you pretty much wherever you go
@BoundaryImposition At least it's only on the internets
...wait a minute
;)
13:28
anyway LUNCH
right, yes, go to LUNCH now plz
I'll go for dinner but what to have
@RudiantoPrasetya Have you ever tried pansit?
It's pretty good :)
I'll make a rice salad with tuna and corn and tomatoes and black olives
@Cinch looks like malay noodles in which case yes
@RudiantoPrasetya that sounds good
burgers and chips and peas for me
good ones tho
13:43
19 degrees inside and I have to turn the air cond on so it could be 22 degrees, I am such a delicate weed
4
You know what's better than lunch?
Brunch.
@Telkitty weed, huh
@Abyx It's appropriate.
Question
Do we have compile-time strings yet?
yes
13:49
Yes through hacks as usual
I'm tired of all the hacks already...
God, I just want a great statically-typed language that's not C++ or Rust...
@VermillionAzure D.
@Abyx D relies on GC. I will never accept GC.
Automatic turn-off.
Kids these days.
@EtiennedeMartel can I call him an idiot?
13:51
@Abyx Feel free to do so.
But I want a statically-typed language that's at the C++-level of abstraction without all the C++ cruft but with all the power.
@VermillionAzure implying C++ and Rust are great
@RudiantoPrasetya I've heard great things about Rust. From the little I've tried, it's a good language.
Plus, it has macros.
IMO macros are probably one of the great features of Lisp/Scheme that will evolve into something great
Like America.
But seriously. Scheme can handle macro usage errors with syntax-error in its syntax-rules system. Imagine a world where C++ had static assert from the start...
13:55
@VermillionAzure Lots of choices. Fortran, Algol 60, Algol 68, Pascal, Ada, ML, Caml, OCaml, Haskell, among many others.
@JerryCoffin Okay, but no GC.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Make macros great again!
C++ gurus typically don't like macros.
Ell
Ell
@VermillionAzure haskell m8
Algol and Fortran are too old, OCaml has no multithreading if I remember correctly or has problems with it, and Haskell is GC.
Ell
Ell
13:56
or idris :D
Ell
Ell
@VermillionAzure what's wrong with GC?
@Ell A lot of things, IMO.
@VermillionAzure wb
@VermillionAzure Reason why I dislike Java.
13:56
I actually decided to ignore GC and use reference counting instead for my Scheme implementation
Imagine: a dynamically-typed class that is basically std::variant layered within a GCNode<T> template class that needs to have hooks into the variant to determine whether it has GCNode children
Ell
Ell
but reference counting is just a poor GC :3
You effectively create a whole other class of interfaces between your GC and non-GC system. Plus, you need to do the marking and collection in some sort of manner, and those strategies are also highly variable and rely on a well-oiled system
I do not like complexity in my solutions. I could care less about GC right now unless I thought it was the optimal way to handle things
Lounge<Contact> was recently mentions, so just thought I'd make you all aware of it again :D
@Abyx You don't need my approval for that.
You know what's better than GC? Stack memory allocation semantics
13:59
@VermillionAzure ah yes I remember a couple messages of that discussion ended up on the starboard
@VermillionAzure Also, RAII.
So, long story short ---
@EtiennedeMartel not really, you could throw a fit and ban me for attacking chat members
Ven
Ven
@noescape zz
@6EQUJ5 RAII is good, but there's many problems with RAII when you convolve it with exceptions
Everything in C++ is so bulky and if you try too hard, you break things
It's not elegantly designed and not modularly designed, at the standard library level
14:00
@VermillionAzure Example: Generic min function. And oh man... exception safe code.
@6EQUJ5 And then now you need to memorize the different types of exception safety -- strong, weak, nothing, etc.
The level of complexity goes through the roof
Okay, now let's convolve THAT with implementing parsers and runtime errors
How should you handle errors? Exceptions? What class are you going to use?
@VermillionAzure This looks like something I'd expect from a HMM (or similar), generating semi-random text with precisely zero actual understanding of the subject matter.
@VermillionAzure Just stop... I wonder how hard it was to write g++...
@6EQUJ5 I wrote a basic Lisp interpreter in hopes of implementing Scheme. It was NOT easy because I made assumptions that broke over 4 times
@6EQUJ5 It had RMS involved early on, so that made it roughly 100 times worse than it needed to be.
14:03
TBH I have no idea how the heck ANYONE writes ANY language or compiler cleanly. It's literally APIs that are adopted and neglected over and over again
Is there a compiler for a language that was harder to write than C++?
@VermillionAzure I've yet to see any evidence that anyone does
@6EQUJ5 Ada, so I heard? The first edition
@BoundaryImposition Lisp is pretty easy. If you don't do all of it.
All you need is car, cdr, cons, type predicates, reference counting, maps, strings, parsing, and you're good.
Oh, and maybe some sort of procedure-literal construction and application algorithm
The HARD parts are:
Macros, reified continuations, tail-call optimization, Unicode support, bignum support, exceptions, multithreading and thread-safety support
@VermillionAzure Does the C++ compiler find errors in the code with exceptions?
@6EQUJ5 Don't understand that phrasing of this
14:07
@VermillionAzure "Okay, now let's convolve THAT with implementing parsers and runtime errors"
@6EQUJ5 No, I don't think so...?
I'm sorry I'm so triggered by my experiences with implementing Scheme that I'm just going off right now
@VermillionAzure I think I'm right in thinking that the C++ compiler doesn't find errors using a huge chain of if statements... lol
OOOH YOU WANT A TWISTER?
(define define 1) is valld in Scheme. At some point.
Keyword redefinition? Yup, that's a thing.
@6EQUJ5 The compiler doesn't handle exceptions at compile-time. Exceptions are resolved at runtime.
@VermillionAzure What... KEYWORD overloading?!
@6EQUJ5 Sorry, redefinition
14:09
@6EQUJ5 Ada requires 2/3rds of an OS in its runt-eim library. PL/I is just awful in general. Fortran is probably the most difficult to parse. SNOBOL was one of the first to generate code for a virtual machine with a byte-code interpreter. Eventually, people managed to generate native code for it, but it definitely wasn't easy.
@VermillionAzure No I mean how does the compiler find compile time errors.
@JerryCoffin So, parsing FORTRAN is more difficult than C++?
@6EQUJ5 Well, it's either parsing errors or type-matching errors most of the time
@6EQUJ5 A number of different ways, depending on the kind of error you're talking about.
@JerryCoffin One of the ways?
Say... syntax error.
@6EQUJ5 Well, at the very least it's difficult in different ways. Harder to say which is really the most difficult.
14:11
Is there ANY language that has good support for context-free or context-sensitive parsing?
All I see is regex regex regex but not much else
Perl regex! JavaScript regex! But not so much context-free
C++ syntax is parsed with regex?!
@6EQUJ5 No.
Ok... good
How is C++ syntax errors found by the compiler?
Ell
Ell
@VermillionAzure haskelllll
@6EQUJ5 Parsing phase
@Ell That's not Haskell
Ell
Ell
14:12
idris
purescript
Haskell is the unicorn that stays in its walled garden.
Ell
Ell
f#
F# is managed?
Ell
Ell
most other functional languages
Ell
Ell
14:13
@VermillionAzure what does managed mean?
Unmanaged, statically-typed language with awesome support for parsing
@Ell It means GC or refcounted memory management by default
@VermillionAzure Was the parsing phase implemented from scratch?
@6EQUJ5 Still quite a few possibilities. For example, if you have something like 019 (starts with a 0, so it should be octal, but includes a 9, which octal doesn't allow) that's likely to be caught by the lexer as simply being an invalid token. If you have something like for (x) that'll be caught by the parser--each token is valid, but it doesn't fit together to make a valid for statement.
Ell
Ell
@VermillionAzure doesn't exist :P
@6EQUJ5 Yes. GCC and LLVM both use recursive descent parsers, apparently, for C++
Ell
Ell
14:13
well I mean, they support parsing algos perfectly well
@JerryCoffin How about not_defined_type n;?
I swear
I'm going to just write my own already
I'm sick of it
How could I port this to use windows to get the interface? pastebin.com/F7h9dVxL
Ell
Ell
@VermillionAzure use Bison
@6EQUJ5 That happens rather later, during semantic analysis. In the case of C++, however, parsing (i.e., determining the type of a single token) already requires semantic analysis. e.g., if you're looking at x * y, you have to look up the type of x to figure out whether * means a pointer or multiplication.
14:17
Screw Bison
Ell
Ell
@VermillionAzure why?
I can't even think of how to parse C++ variable definition off the top of my head... int n; int n = 0; int n{0}; int n(0); int n = {0}; const int n; int const n; ........ blah....
@Ell Interfacing and C API bleh
Writing a C++ compiler... _
@6EQUJ5 That's called "the most vexing parse"
C++'s grammar is context-sensitive I think, and undecidable at worst
14:18
@VermillionAzure How is it done? The variable definition parsing.
Since templates are Turing complete, compilation may not terminate
@6EQUJ5 It's done incrementally by accumulating information in the symbol tables, I would think
@VermillionAzure I might die before writing a C++ compiler.
@Ell Even if you accept the basic idea of a parser generator being useful, Bison's original author has fairly directly said that it's a mess because he didn't know what he was doing at the time.
e.g. uint32_t would be defined as an alias for unsigned short somewhere
@VermillionAzure Is there anything in C++ that is more vexing to parse than variable definitions?
14:21
@6EQUJ5 No idea
@VermillionAzure I'm maybe thinking of class definitions. Actually, maybe lamdas... I don't know..
Ell
Ell
@6EQUJ5 parsing templates is undecidable
or turing complete, or something :V
@Ell Does any compiler fully support templates?
Ell
Ell
@6EQUJ5 all the big ones
gcc, clang
14:24
@Ell How come here: drdobbs.com/generic-min-and-max-redivivus/184403774 the theoretically correct code does not compile on any compiler?
Involving templates.
Ell
Ell
that is from 2001
have you tried whatever it is on a modern compiler?
"It would all be so nice, but there's a little detail worth mentioning. Sadly, Min doesn't work with any compiler I have access to. In fairness, each compiler chokes on a different piece of code. I know the code is correct because a loosely-defined reunion of compilers would compile it, but then I haven't seen a working example yet. So if you have access to a modern compiler and could give the code a try, please let me know."
Hmmm well I found out about that link from SO
And that post from SO was pretty recent
nwp
nwp
> I know the code is correct because a loosely-defined reunion of compilers would compile it
Yes.
nwp
nwp
that is a very strange definition of code correctness
14:29
Ikr!
I was thinking the same thing
@6EQUJ5 Yes. A number of things inside templates can change entirely based on context that isn't available until the template is instantiated.
@VermillionAzure So how do you deal with reference cycles?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good question.
But GC sucks, of course.
0
Q: Emulating SRT division hardware (using carry save adders) in software

user8469759I'm trying to implement in C++ a function that emulates the binary SRT division, with carry save adders. Below there's what I've done so far bool srt_binary_division( int32_t * z, const int32_t& x, const int32_t& y, const int& n_digits) { if (x >= (y << n_digits)) return fa...

is that question asked well?
nwp
nwp
14:44
> enter link description here
sorry?
nwp
nwp
@user8469759 That's what it says in the question.
also you forgot to ask a question
@user8469759 As stated in the asking help stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask, "pretend you're talking to a busy colleague and have to sum up your entire question in one sentence".
I can't find that question sentence in the page.
I'm writing the question down
LUNCH was very nice thank you
14:50
I've tried to write down what puzzles me
although I have to hope that anybody reading that question knows the algorithm
is the test case I provided good enough to present the problem?
there's probably some problem with my test case
you haven't stated a problem
"I'm struggling" doesn't count
"I believe [..] there's some problems" also doesn't count
Just out of curiosity
furthermore, we have no idea what your inputs and expected outputs are
what isn't UNCLEAR
in that question
14:59
@user8469759 "what your inputs and expected outputs are"
basically, if you don't know what the problem is yet, then you can't tell us what the problem is yet, and we're not going to spend any time fixing it
At the moment, all you have is vague insinuations that "something" is wrong.
problem identification is firmly your responsibility
give me a min
for the input
14:59
even if we end up doing the legwork on fixing it

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