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04:00
@EthanSteinberg a game
I can wrap the whole thing in an output() function, but that would sacrifice purity.
@Maxpm I'm not into 'C'+1
Hia all.
moshe moshe!
@Maxpm What's the problem, anyway?
04:01
Yo!
user406009
Obviously. But what type of game could possibly use thousands of sprites? Falling sands? 3d? Seems like resolutions limits would be hit pretty fast.
Ok, dumb question.
Xeo
Xeo
@stdOrgnlDave *moshi :P
That impure code can call pure code? That's not a problem.
@Xeo I know it's moshi, but he is NAMED moshe
if I just said moshi it would be dumb
04:02
I'm used to building files from Xcode projects and such.
However, I've downloaded some source code and it's written in C/C++ and not in Objective-C
@Maxpm but, what is your problem?
Any idea how I'd build the program?
You can have pure core that's easily testable and all, and impure glue to tie it to the world.
04:02
put them into the xcode like anything else
it will automatically compile them if they have .cpp extensions
Hey I have a question
since it is a front-end for GCC
Which is what you do in Haskell.
@CatPlusPlus Explaining it now, the answer seems obvious. But I was unsure whether or not sacrificing purity for robustness would be the right thing to do. After all, that would mean that no pure code could use my library. But that doesn't matter, since pure code can't output anything, anyway.
So never mind.
I still don't know what's the problem.
04:03
Im a computer science major just completed data structures using java, what languages I should learn over summer
If you want to output, then there should be impure function to output.
6502 assembly
user406009
You realize you are in the C++ channel?
and, um, English, make sure you're good at English
04:04
Pure code cannot call impure code, but impure code can call pure code with no problem.
yeah I know but doesnt hurt to ask
@Nabmeister do not think I joke when I tell you to write something in 6502 (get a commodore64 emulator)
@Nabmeister it is the best thing you can do after being taught java
isnt that assembly?
@Nabmeister Haskell.
The answer is always Haskell.
@Nabmeister yes, but it is in such a constrained environment and such a simple processor that it's not really like modern assembly
@CatPlusPlus the question is "what is not Haskell?"
04:05
oh ok
@stdOrgnlDave Lupus.
Before C++11, the answer was always "Boost." Now, it's "Haskell."
In rutgers they are going to teach me C next semester
than c++
thank ye lord!
@Nabmeister Python is a given. I plan on learning that. Some web-based languages are probably a good idea, including PHP so you can appreciate how God-awful it is. Haskell. D. Go.
Xeo
Xeo
04:06
@Nabmeister Change school now
why rutgers is that bad?
@Maxpm STOP HARPING ON D. it is not relevant and never will be.
There's no such thing as web-based language.
Xeo
Xeo
@Nabmeister I don't know, but from what you say, I can see that the programming course is bad
user406009
04:07
Read that.
@Xeo explain !
I know someone who's going to Rutgers, they're doing engineering though
@stdOrgnlDave I'm sorry. He asked for some language suggestions, so I gave some languages that I find interesting. I didn't mean to harp on D.
no im going to learn systems programming using C tho
Xeo
Xeo
@stdOrgnlDave Don't learn C before C++
04:08
@Xeo rutgers is ranked 28th in country for computer science lol
@Xeo one should always learn something low-level if they're going from Java to C++ or they will be a failure at C++
Learn C while learning C++ :)
Xeo
Xeo
@stdOrgnlDave What the fuck?
They should just forget Java while learning C++
What's the actual class? If it's introductory programming, stay away from monsters like C and C++. I hear Python is a good first language.
that's what something low-level like some 6502 assembly or decent C does
04:09
im going to have a fun time with memory dumping in C i never did that in java
Xeo
Xeo
Same goes for C, there's no sense in learning it first, you have to forget all about it while learning C++ anyways
If it's systems programming, C is reasonable.
anyway, C lets you learm algorithms in a pure environment, you don't have to worry about if you can use a reverse iterator while you're traversing your binary search tree
@Maxpm Java is a good first language \, rofl in my school they taught alice once
@Maxpm Only if there's no C++ compiler available.
04:10
@Nabmeister Java is a terrible first language. They taught us Alice too, for two months. Miserable.
Xeo
Xeo
@stdOrgnlDave, you seriously think way too highly of C
@CatPlusPlus Good point.
@Xeo and you, too lowly.
Xeo
Xeo
For a good reason
Or many, even
can you elucidate them (honestly) without it turning into a flamewar?
user406009
04:11
Python > C for simply showing algorithms in a C style syntax.
Boilerplate.
Lots and lots of boilerplate.
Is true == 1? Or is it just true != 0?
I honestly don't think C is relevant at all anymore.
Anything C can do, C++ can do. And I would much rather write a real program in C++ than C.
@Maxpm hahaha my friend would totally choke you now
Xeo
Xeo
04:11
@Pubby C++ standard atleast says true converts to 1
OK, you can say "C++ is better than C," but the fact is, C is probably the most relevant language still
user406009
@Maxpm C can do much better linking than C++.
@Pubby != 0.
user406009
C++ ABI is a mess.
Any function in C will be littered with error-checking, or buggy.
04:12
@EthanSteinberg That's...actually a good point.
Xeo
Xeo
and anything but 0 converts to true
@CatPlusPlus only if you do it poorly. same as littering try/ctach everywhere
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus or both? :P
You have to propagate error somehow.
@Xeo same in C++ unless you override it...
04:12
In C, you don't have any implicit mechanism for that.
If I have to make a high-level binding to an OS API, parts of it are going to be in C just because of the ABI.
@Xeo So static_cast<int>(true) == 1 is always true?
You have to do it manually.
Xeo
Xeo
Yes
do you know what I hate in java
Xeo
Xeo
04:13
Java?
public static void main(String args[]) {
XML. And Java.
@CatPlusPlus C++ is not the paragon of great exception systems
why do they call it args
why not sa
@stdOrgnlDave But it at least has something.
04:13
argc and argv you mean?
Xeo
Xeo
"ARGumentS"?
Because it's arguments...?
What the hell is "sa?"
argument count, argument value
but its more of string of arrays
user406009
@Nabmeister You can call it anything you want.
04:13
@Nabmeister What? Of all the horrible things that are in Java, you dislike the name of the parameter? You know it's a convention, right?
@Nabmeister You know you can use any argument name there?
Xeo
Xeo
@Nabmeister lol, no
@Nabmeister It's an array of strings.
i know but i dont like when people call it args
!!argc=argument count, argv=argument value!!
04:14
@Nabmeister Why?
@Nabmeister Why? That's exactly what it is!
It's an array of arguments passed from environment.
They are the program's arguments.
i dont know
That's like doing void foo(int integer).
04:14
You could call them "arguments", sure, but "args" is much shorter.
or call them sa
If you call it sa, someone will kill you.
so much shorter
What does "sa" means?
user406009
String Array
04:15
I always use public static void main(final String[] arguments).
Xeo
Xeo
"string o' arrays" it seems
Never use names like that.
array of strings
But I'm more verbose than most in my code, I think.
it's a note to the person who eventually looks at your code next: "I'm a moron"
04:15
It has to be descriptive, not short.
user406009
@Maxpm final is actually allowed in Java's main? Wouldn't that change the signature?
im very particular for my variables tho
@Nabmeister What on earth is the point of naming it like that? The type of a parameter should show its type, not its name.
Wait. People have died to make sure that people use descriptive names for their variables, and you want the variable to have a name based on its type?
Xeo
Xeo
@Maxpm I'm also rather verbose, but I think args is a common enough abbreviation
04:16
argc and argv assholes
K&R to the grave
Let's make it Hungarian. saSa.
@stdOrgnlDave Java arrays embed their length. No need for argc.
@EthanSteinberg It's allowed. final doesn't really work like C++'s const. It's just an enforcement that you can't change what that identifier references inside the method.
@EtiennedeMartel YAY FOR JAVA IF ONLY WE WERE JAVA
04:17
Keeping array length separately is stupid and C.
Xeo
Xeo
@stdOrgnlDave, are you on drugs or something?
@stdOrgnlDave Keep it down, jackass.
CAN'T YOU SEE THIS JAVA IS TEARING US APART?
4
@Maxpm Can't you see I love potatoes?
04:18
I actually am on drugs :-(
Wow, that's like, four of my messages starred today.
I feel so popular.
i am on drugs called java
user406009
Shoot, keep on forgetting how retarded Java's final is. Well I guess it is just as stupid as the rest of the language.
It's a poor drug. It's not even fun.
@Maxpm Time for you to have sexual intercourse with ladies.
04:18
@EthanSteinberg final is pretty much a hack for closures.
@EtiennedeMartel you say that, but you havent' used Android's APIs and Google's iron final foot
hey lady do you want me to you put you in my hashmap/
@EthanSteinberg Yeah, it is pretty bad.
@stdOrgnlDave I don't have a single clue what the fuck you're trying to say.
And I don't think you can have a final array of final Strings.
04:19
@EtiennedeMartel google uses final to make your life even more hellish when writing for android
So even with final String[] arguments, I could still do arguments[0] = "Poop".
@stdOrgnlDave No, Google uses final because they care for you.
@sanket Stop spamming this.
google cares cough*
Holy dick, someone just went on an upvoting spree on my questions.
04:20
@CatPlusPlus I need help with this urgently
Don't worry, it'll be reversed.
Xeo
Xeo
1 message moved to bin
@sanket Well, how much are you willing to pay?
@Cat needs food.
04:21
$$?
No, €€.
haha cat plus
i though SO was free
It is. @Cat isn't though.
well then someone else
04:22
@sanket its only free if you dont lets others do your hw for u
Bottom line: we don't care. Your question is not a priority for us. If we haven't answered the last 10 times you've posted this, we won't this time either.
i am not even in school
So. Stop. Spamming.
Aw, no need to be so harsh.
04:22
speak for yourselves
The more you spam, the less we care. It might even get negative.
you don't care but many others do
I would try to answer if I could.
Xeo
Xeo
Sure?
No, they don't.
04:23
hey i taught myself 3d programming, you can handle it
@sanket Well, go ask them.
But I can't.
Xeo
Xeo
If you have to spam it, I wouldn't be so sure
what ever
@Nabmeister That's pretty awesome!
04:23
It's unusually active for this time of the day.
Sanket i am an expert in this site come to me for help if you want www.liveperson.com/experts
@Maxpm Tried to be subtle first!
I should really be going to sleep considering I must wake up in 6 hours.
Urg. Yeah, me too.
But eeeeeeh.
@maxpm thanks max im currently making a program that generates java3d code from a google sketchup gile
file*
04:24
Neat.
I'm about to go downvote the question
@sankat here are some tutorials www.thenewboston.com
i learned from that site....
if it gets bad enough it can be closed as 'not constructive' because 1/2 of the highest rep'd people on the site are in here and getting annoyed at you and that is not constructive
If this were an IRC channel, they'd have +b by now.
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Who exactly? ;)
04:26
The spammer person.
Its funny how hte java room is always quiet
Man, do I miss op powers.
I don't. they lead to this stupid pecking order
but people do get their chat privileges taken away, how does that happen?
Flagging.
Either by popular vote or by mod hammer.
so flag the bastard
04:28
Java used to be my 3rd highest tag... Now it's 9th, and within 50 votes of being knocked off my top-10 list.
send me the link
I might next time.
TIOBE puts C in #1 position
and climbing
TIOBE sucks.
user406009
TIOBE is about as useful as a dice roll.
04:30
this is how languages should be c<c++<java<alice<basic<visualbasic
lol jking
prob in the opposite direction
@Nabmeister You forgot to put PHP somewhere in there.
hey, don't forget C#. C# is really good if you want to write visual basic code but you miss C++
user406009
PHP is so bad that it fell of the stack.
@stdOrgnlDave C# is really good if you want to solve problems and .NET is a constraint you can live with.
@EtiennedeMartel sometimes I wonder if you have a sense of humor :-(
04:32
@stdOrgnlDave I do. But your jokes suck.
user406009
@stdOrgnlDave That's actually surprisingly accurate. All the languages in the top right corner are important for their own reasons.
@EthanSteinberg indeed. and let @CatPlusPlus take note that Haskell is down there with ActionScript.
Yes, SO tag popularity is really useful metric.
actually, it is
especially since it correlates so well with github
It surprises me that JavaScript is near the top. I didn't think people used JavaScript for anything but websites, and I didn't think people generally published their websites' sources.
04:35
You cannot not publish JS sources.
hey can somoene help me karnaugh maps
im having a hard time understanding it
At least in web environment,
No it isn't. It's too skewed towards C#. Since that was what SO initially attracted when it was first launched.
Tag popularity on SO indicates how many people don't know how to use Google, mostly.
Also, I've noticed that Reddit really hates C#.
04:36
@CatPlusPlus you poor person, that you have never created a situation Google cannot solve (without pointing back to SO)
BECAUSE IT'S MS!111
@CatPlusPlus What do you mean?
Microsoft?
@CatPlusPlus But they like Java though...
04:37
Oh God the horror.
Dear God why.
wow, AutoHotkey is actually on that chart, that is surprising but not too surprising
I'm thinking the same thing
@stdOrgnlDave care to delve into meta-programming today with me dave?
@johnathon I would love to, but only if it's a short jaunt, with a warning that I'm over-tired and on drugs
@stdOrgnlDave I like to think I can solve my problems.
@CatPlusPlus cats always think that, regardless of if it is true or not
04:40
Notice how I have 0 questions.
@stdOrgnlDave was kinda joking man, I'm about to crash myself, thought I'd jump in here and see whats going on. on the serious note though, i really do want to learn it. [email protected] is my email if you care to send me some information
what time zone are you in?
@stdOrgnlDave eastern, 12:41 here
and on that note, goodnight folks
I am also singing the same song
04:43
@CatPlusPlus it is good to ask questions: to let your ignorance out, and let it be replaced by wisdom. stop holding on to your ignorance
Okay, I sometimes ask here. Writing SO questions is formal and boring.
Speaking of boring, gotta go to classes.
Asking anything on SO reliably makes me feel stupid, but supposedly actually makes me smarter.
Sleep a bit on the lecture and stuff.
Speaking of sleep, gotta go to bed.
I had to come back just to say that I glanced at /. and my heart sunk. this fad of fawning over 'bufferbloat' is getting taxing. it has like 2 major backers who are the only ones who've "published" on the subject and speak at conferences, and everyone eats it up as if it's the second coming
04:46
Dream of going to classes and stuff.
bufferbloat is mostly a load of crap!
BLARGH!
rant now over
I have exactly zero clue as to what you're talking about.
Good night.
you are lucky, my friend.
05:04
@CatPlusPlus At 7 AM?
05:30
If I were you, I'd be doubting your teacher's competence if he says you "need" to cast NULL. — Mysticial 51 secs ago
05:50
@Mysticial I loved Mahmoud trying to defend the teacher. I can see saying something like "He's your teacher -- learn to live with his foibles.", but based on the average level I've seen in programming teachers, I'd say assuming he's an idiot is probably a fair first reaction...
@JerryCoffin lol yeah. I saw.
FWIW, I actually do cast malloc() since most of the numerical code I write is meant to target both C and C++. But that's just a niche.
Bad teaching makes people think that you can't be harmed by electricity as long as your feet aren't touching the floor.
Teacher vs. SO: SO wins... always...
@StackedCrooked What? Electricity harmful? How could that be?
Apparently :)
05:55
@Mysticial ...at least against officially designated teachers. I may not get paid for it, but I do quite a bit of teaching (and you do too...)
We get rep and bragging rights.
I dunno, even though I don't get paid to be on SO, I've gotten quite a few interview requests.
That might come useful later when I get out of school and start looking for a job.
@Mysticial True -- like most rules, there are exceptions. As always, however, you should only break the rule when needed, and you should know exactly why you're doing it to, not some vague FUD about some possible compiler error.
@Mysticial It might at that. I've gotten a few interview requests too (but not taken any jobs from it yet either).

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