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14:00
@SurajJain Nobody knows C++. We just pretend.
Haha I want to do another language beside C , For software development , Should i go with c# or c++?
@SurajJain If you have questions, ask them in chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/116940/c-questions-and-answers or on SO proper.
@wilx What about it?
@SurajJain C# prolly
@R.MartinhoFernandes Colors in Unicode? It seems like an abuse of it.
14:01
@wilx why is it not allowed to post questions on here?
i dont want to be downvoted
i am just asking for advice
@YvesHenri Because.
They kill when ask question
@YvesHenri Because we have a feral dog here who would rip you into pieces.
Hahahahah
14:02
Why should i go with C# ?
@SurajJain More jobs, easier, probably.
Is there any thing like Moree Object Oriented or something like that ?
@SurajJain Because it has "sharp" in the name
@wilx It's a thing since the big Unicode 6.0 emoji update.
@SurajJain C++ is extremely harder to get right, has probably fewer applications/use cases and it's generally behind in most things.
14:05
Do you want to be sharp or do you want to be rusty and blunt with C++ clusterfuck
I'm surprised you didn't run into it before.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I have not seen that before, I think.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Into emoji but not into combining characters for colors.
In 6.0 there was U+FE0E VARIATION SELECTOR-15 to request a "text presentation" (often colorless) and U+FE0F VARIATION SELECTOR-16 for an "emoji presentation" (often with colors).
Unicode 8.0 added U+1F3FB-U+1F3FF as further modifiers for skin tones.
@wilx Btw, there are also characters to combine emoji into bigger ones.
@R.MartinhoFernandes This is weird.
14:12
Hi All,
U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER can be used to, for example, join U+1F468 and U+1F393 (👨‍🎓 man face, graduate cap) to make a single "student" emoji.
Is that true
Yes.
@AldwinCheung Check "codepoints" here: emojipedia.org/family-man-woman-girl-girl
whoah, TIL
The ZWJ is ignored if not supported (so you just get the individual emojis in sequence), but support for this stuff is pretty widespread these days.
The specific example I gave: emojipedia.org/male-student
14:15
> It is considered lucky in Japan to dream of an eggplant in the first dream of the new year.
Also, the national flag emojis are actually two characters each.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Interestingly I don't seem them combined
@AldwinCheung Ah, benis joek in disguise
The regional indicator symbols are a set of 26 alphabetic Unicode characters (A-Z) intended to be used to encode ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 two-letter country codes in a way that allows optional special treatment. These were defined as part of the Unicode 6.0 support for emoji, as an alternative to encoding separate characters for each country flag. Although they can be displayed as Roman letters, it is intended that implementations may choose to display them in other ways, such as by using national flags. The Unicode FAQ indicates that this mechanism should be used and that symbols for national flags...
@AldwinCheung Your browser doesn't support this particular combination, I guess.
Pull requests welcome! distant voice of Luc
14:16
The German flag emojipedia.org/flag-for-germany is U+1F1E9 REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER D followed by U+1F1EA REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER E.
The system uses two-letter ISO country codes. So if you type any pair of "regional indicator letters", you get the corresponding country flag.
Oh btw, will you vote this year @AldwinCheung?
@Rerito I'm gonna try to, yes.
It's actually quite elegant. This way they only need 26 characters, and the system supports virtually any ISO recognized region, past, present, and future, without constant updates (the implementors still have to include the flag symbols in their fonts, but they can do that at their own discretion, which also shifts the burden of which countries to recognize out of the Unicode Consortium)
@AldwinCheung Ready for Marine?
can we talk on Linux kernel?
14:22
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's actually interesting.
from kernel source code modification can i display a login screen just after completing the device boot process?
@wilx And the recommended fallback for unsupported pairs is to just render the letters, so you might see the 🇩🇪 German flag emoji as "DE" instead. This way an implementation that isn't up-to-date on their flag icons can still render something meaningful instead of blank squares.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Funnily enough, two jobs later I did sleep in the office a few times.
14:39
@Rerito pls no
@AldwinCheung It would give a new meaning to « Marine Nationale ».
Ell
Ell
Marine le Win
Manine
15:27
@Morwenn :D excellent
Ven
Ven
I'm sad this is now my top-voted codegolf answer :[.
15:40
@Shoe I Just read your description it said i like c++ , then why do you like c++?
@SurajJain stockholm syndrome
@littlepootis What Does That MeaN?
google it
@littlepootis Haha Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.
Just like @littlepootis developed a weird fetish on TurboC++ crapilers
15:43
What is the difference between lounge c++ and c++ questions and answers ?
Ooooh I've heard that joke before!
@Rerito :(
@AldwinCheung Which one?
"what is the difference between..."
@SurajJain the latter is what you think the former is for.
15:45
@AldwinCheung I see you know both c# and c++ , i want to know which one to move to ?
Asking @AldwinCheung for advice, terrible idea :D
I want to development
15
I love C
@SurajJain well I want to development very much too
@SurajJain continue with C is great idea very
i want to know other language to know develop
15:46
albatar
How would that be
Ven
Ven
@AldwinCheung arrête avec tes alts
I believe we're about to see C take over other languages in the coming years
That be would great
@SurajJain Tried haskell have you?
as such I would personally recommend you to become a C expert
15:46
or newfangled C++ replacements cropping up everywhere
I myself long to learn C deeper
and each failing as with xkcd.com/927
@AldwinCheung you mean D right?
15:47
@Rerito la prochaine fois qu'on se voit bb
D is pretty good.
2
Wish it was more popular.
Ven
Ven
Blippin'
I know of 2 people each doing their own language to replace C++
Holy shit, that's going to be my final year project.
@SurajJain also learn rust it's the future, don't hesitate to post on their mailinglist / subreddit / github
15:50
D is nice but there are a few problems it has last I played with it.
stop the starbait
@ratchetfreak What problems?
though they are kinda personal: 1: I dislike ducktyping in templates. 2. the stdlib expects GC to be enabled
@AldwinCheung Yeah, that's too easy
if it started out with something like concepts and you had to specify a concept for each template param it would be much better
15:55
Would it?
if you go with ad-hoc ducktyping like in C++ and D you are dooming yourself to unchecked templates and massive template error messages
Are you one of those noobs that can't read 1k lines of template error messages?
Ven
Ven
@AldwinCheung ta jalousie se voit comme un benis au milieu d'un message
I don't want to read 1k lines of error message to find out the expansion expected a certain function signature but that my lambda is not well defined
Then signup for a game of Nomic
15:58
NOMIC NOMIC NOMIC
Btw @Shoe, I can get one of my friends to join if we need people.
Yes please
I've scraped cicada from the lounge barrel this afternoon
Maybe we are 6 with your friend
If @AldwinCheung officially joins in with this simple form <3
I especially don't want to read 1k lines when the real cause is detectable and reportable with 1 line if the template was properly annotated
@ratchetfreak yeah, people often repeat the mantra that you can disable the GC, which is technically true, but functionally equivalent to "the language comes with built-in memory leak support" since the stdlib pretends it's always enabled.
(And, I bet, pretty much every other library, if the language actually had some ecosystem of note)
@sho
So today I was trying to design some pixel "art" for a game and 2 hours in I barely have 2 frames of an animation
Art is not for me
16:05
@R.MartinhoFernandes and the leak free subset of D is tiny, you can use array append because that allocates, you can't use associative arrays because those are hash tables, you have to delete class objects explicitly but there is no clean way of doing that,...
Yeah, basically a fancy C.
and I could create a much better fancy C
@Shoe @RawN @R.MartinhoFernandes @ratchetfreak In c++, return statement returns the value that is placed in EAX register. Now what if that register contains some garbage value and we have just wrote return without the name of the variable (note: return type of function is Int), what actually will happen internally?
@nerd21 Yeah, one Friday night I took a pill, maybe two. Down at the car park I saw everyone I knew. And before the night had started we had planned to crash a party. Just a place that someone knew. A local house belonging to a gangsters crew.
@nerd21 Please don't ping random people.
@nerd21 Also, there are no registers in C++.
16:08
it shouldn't compile
@ratchetfreak it ran.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I dont know anybody here and its first time I have ever talked over here. Sorry for disturbing you
@nerd21 Update your compiler.
@nerd21 I've seen it all, I've seen it all now. I swear to god I've seen it all. Nothing shock me anymore after tonight.
@nerd21 you could have done without the ping and read the rules which points you to this chatroom
@nerd21 you must have invoked nasal demons (undefined behavior) which means anything could be happening under the hood. Anything is not interesting to reason about when trying to create a proper working program.
Well, anything according to the standard. If you actually read the compiled binary you'll know what happens.
16:15
@nerd21 A proper compiler rejects it: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/0d62e3a8d17f6314
@Shoe Unless it also produces assembly with undefined behaviour.
(There are several instances of documented UB for x86, for example)
@R.MartinhoFernandes At such a low level there's UB?
@Shoe Yeah. (And this is not including bugs in actual chips that go against the specifications)
@Shoe as described by machine spec sheets
> If the content of the source operand is 0, the content of the destination operand is undefined.
Oh yeah, thinking about it it's not that hard to believe
16:19
is the warning the result of an overzealous if constexpr or is that working as intended
I'd put the warning under noise.
add a std::static_cast<void>(arg); under the else
"do something under some conditions; return a constant otherwise" doesn't seem like an unusual pattern to me.
@ratchetfreak that’s not an answer to my question
it's a solution to the problem
16:21
my problem is that I want an answer to my question
Additionally, removing the constexpr removes the warning, which to me is a pretty strong indication that it shouldn't be triggered.
@LucDanton This is not a chat where to get answers to your questions?
@R.MartinhoFernandes in my precise situation one of the arguments turn out to be an empty struct, depending
Don't be salty luc
meaning in that codepath I don’t use it, for obvious reasons
16:24
Thanks, it gave an error on proper compiler and I got what I was missing with bit of reading on some site. Thanks for helping and sorry for disturbing.
By proper compiler I hope you mean clang
For your own sake
that being said I tend to find mixing partial specs and if constexpr a bit iffy :/
Ell
Ell
gcc is a proper compiler too :O
I think I eked out a tiny bit of usefulness from binary literals and digit separators.
@LucDanton I really don't like it.
I mean the one which R.martinho has shared through a link
16:27
Isn't this the most readable UTF-8 encoder/decoder you've ever seen? github.com/rmartinho/ogonek/blob/feature/encoding/include/…
@R.MartinhoFernandes to give even more context: this is concat_range which has a concat_range_base implementation detail. the base is partial spec’d (different member data and all that), but I have a function which return type is concat_range. so pick my poison: stupid re-dependence/CRTP-style tricks to put the implementations in the base as well, or put it in concat_range but branch the impl :/
@R.MartinhoFernandes heh I’m fairly sure that particular case was in one of the proposals at the time
well, maybe it was hex octets/bytes/words/what have you
@LucDanton To be honest, I find the biggest improvement is the named constants in the first place; they make it easy to understand what's happening. The binary literals are just a minor improvement over hex values thanks to being able to align stuff; many of them could be written nicely with zigamorph() and shifts.
yes nicely of course
zigamorph<6>() << 6 is perfectly nice :<
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's missing helpers to seek around
16:36
Actually zigamorph<continuation_shift>() << 2 * continuation_shift makes the relations clearer.
yeah cos with magic numbers I’m thinking of the hex literal and I’m just as non-plussed
Did anybody hear about the NASA press conference that will happen in 1.5 hours?
I should rewrite all 6/12/18 in terms of continuation_shift.
@ratchetfreak That's not an answer to my question :P
$ grep 'if constexpr' $here | wc -l
18
btw
Is that a lot?
16:40
yes and no. no in that I didn’t go through my existing code and replace old stuff with if constexpr so it’s just the new stuff (which is not a lot all things considered), yes in that I haven’t written that much in terms of raw lines
All-hands calls suck.
lol 'odr-used outside of discarded statement' is a new form of standardese post-if constexpr
welp googling for if constexpr/constexpr if is a nightmare
17:12
> For the first time in a very long time, we’re changing what a specific combo finisher does.
@AldwinCheung woooo
@LucDanton lol
@ratchetfreak Actually, there's plenty of other things to go in before, starting with a ton with throw statements.
17:30
March 2nd: AMD Zen
I guess I know what I'll be doing next week.
playing Path of Exile’s legacy league
Ram is so fucking expensive now. But I guess I don't have a choice. 64GB for $380. With the high-end 8-core Zen, I guess I'm looking at a build of about $1.2k. That's not too bad - for something that's probably gonna beat my current box for everything except HPC.
> Rng const* rng;
@R.MartinhoFernandes should that be value-init’d? in the land of iterators you need well-behaved value-init’d iterators, dunno about range-v3
@LucDanton Probably. I honestly have no idea what range-v3 uses defaulted cursors for.
Actually, it probably works without the default ctor.
EVERYTHING has default ctors in range-v3.
@LucDanton Hah, nope, totally required.
For no reason whatsoever, AFAICT
yeah I’m used to seeing that sort of thing
I’m 99% it’s about 'but what if I need deferred initialization'
hello folks
check the edit that the guy made to this perfectly fine answer: stackoverflow.com/a/998584/34509
if you too think that was a bad edit.. perhaps it should be undone
17:59
have you guys seen the cat-wireframe-to-picture website?
i wonder what happens if you pass it a wireframe model of a unicorn
@R.MartinhoFernandes if a billion-dollar mistake was not enough to make language designers to pause and think I don’t think that one will
18:15
@AldwinCheung well I’m sure the pvp community will receive this raid balance patch with glee
19:01
Hey <3
19:13
Hello
SO, what's up?
I'm bored, I want news :o
@orlp I was updating vergesort with pdqsort's latest changs. Why is <iterator> included only for C++11 and later? You ue std::iterator_traits no matter the standard revision.
19:33
Oklahoma Has Passed A Bill That Requires Women To Get Written Permission From A Man To Get An Abortion:… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834075815151300608
impressive
yay for equality!
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn i'm leaving work
This is not an alternartive news.
@Ven At this late hour? o_o
@Morwenn here is your news ^
Ven
Ven
Well yes
@Abyx Hey, another retarded news :D
@Ven I left work like three hours ago.
Ven
Ven
19:35
@Morwenn no -- were it retarded, it'd have been aborted
@Morwenn as you should've :)
@JohannesSchaub-litb shouldn't we change the link to the cppreference?
@Ven I like how your two sentences can be read as a whole without any regard to the arrows.
Ven
Ven
Ouch. I didn't realize I was usually this mean.
user1804599
20:34
No, segfaults can be useful
user1804599
The JVM uses them to implement GC safe points with no membar overhead
So JVM uses them as non-interrupting interrupts? Breakpoints basically?
user1804599
If you implement safe points naively you check an atomic Boolean every once in a while
user1804599
JVM avoids the overhead of this by allocating a readable page, which is read from without membar
user1804599
Then once the GC wants to do a cycle it'll make the page inaccessible, and waits until all threads have segfaulted
user1804599
20:43
Then it does the GC, makes the page accessible again and the threads will continue. Changing page accessibility incurs a full membar so that's safe
user1804599
So you only get a membar when changing the state, instead of every time you pass the safe point
user1804599
@sehe What's a good build system for tool chains that take multiple sources and produce multiple outputs at once?
20:55
@AldwinCheung thanks anet
nwp
nwp
@rightfold so if one thread is stuck in an infinite loop without doing any memory operations all other threads get stuck too?
user1804599
Yes, however as you may already know the JVM inserts safe points in such a way that this won't happen.
Ven
Ven
@rightfold cba unlocking my phone for slack
I'm not sure any build system is good at that :[.
user1804599
:(
@Mysticial thoughts on Ryzen?
21:07
@rightfold I was going to ask how it handles while(true) { nop }, but this answer says it defaults to polling if it cannot solve the halting problem given the code.
21:20
Complexity in practice:
We cann see two O(n²) algorithms, a bunch of O(n log n) algorithm, a wonky O(n) algorithm, then a fucking O(n² log n) algorithm that beats every other algorithm because fuck you.
@Mgetz I'm gonna be busy next week.
Gonna spec something out over the weekend.
Looking forward to a new architecture and a new build box.
Without having looked at any of the mobos yet, I'm gonna see if it's possible to get an mATX box with 3 PCIe slots. One for double-slot video card. And two for my SAS controllers. That will take up all 4 PCI case slots on an mATX. Then I'll need to max out the memory at 4 x 16GB.
@Mysticial what's the max the memory controller supports?
I'll decide later whether to make it my primary workstation. But it's looking unlikely at this point since it's very inconvenient to benchmark on my primary box. Right now I have two Haswells. One for benchmarking, and the other as my primary workstation.
or is that known yet?
@Mgetz 4 DDR4 slots. And the max DDR4 density for non-servers is 16GB/stick.
21:29
@Mysticial that's really low, I would have thought they would have tried for 64/stick on future compat
Right now it's capped at 16GB/stick for desktops and 64GB/stick for servers.
And no you can't stick server memory in a desktop.
ECC?
quite a few memory controllers support both... insofar as the pins aren't incompatible... or did they deliberately break that with DDR4?
You need a server motherboard to have that support.
There's a good chance I'll be looking at server memory later in the year. If Skylake X does not have AVX512 and only Skylake Purley (the server) does, then I'm basically stuck between a rock and a hard place.
21:33
that sucks, it didn't use to be that way. Particularly for the AMD chips because the MMC is on die. It was always just an issue of if the mobo had the on board leads and a lot did
IOW, I'll probably be looking at a mid-level dual-socket build with 192 or 384 GB of memory. Probably something like 16 - 32 cores depending on price.
My budget tells me I won't be able to go 32 cores. But from a programming standpoint, anything less isn't going to have the right compute/bandwidth ratio for the super-high-end machines that I'm targeting. Unless I downclock the memory or something.
@Mysticial my loads don't scale to this, I stand in awe
@Mgetz Neither do mine. But it's hard to program for a very large machine with only shitty hardware.
If Skylake X has AVX512, then I'll just go with that. It won't help me as much for coding, but it's much cheaper, has saner maintenance costs, has the fun of overclocking, and can easily be re-purposed for other uses.
@Mysticial I'm going to laugh if they ever fit AVX 512 on a desktop chip, their graphics drivers will probably just use that
@Mgetz Cannonlake is supposed to have it. But it looks like that's slipping into 2018.
So it has slipped 2 years already.
21:46
@Morwenn I guess I never realized that I was missing <iterator> in the first place
@Mgetz Granted, I am getting increasingly worried about AVX512. If AMD cuts into Intel enough, it might force Intel to abandon the whole vector thing to stay competitive with AMD.
although it seems some other header includes it
@Mysticial depends on if AMD picks it up for the opterons
they may
They won't for this first generation Zen. But I wouldn't rule it out for later.
Based on earlier leaks of the Zen design, it was supposed to have dual 256-bit units. But that apparently didn't make it. So they're probably pushing that back, or perhaps scrapping it altogether if makes sense to go directly into 512-bit.
@Mysticial I suspect they'll see what the clusters need, and if they are getting feedback that 256bit vector ops are slow on the current design
21:52
goddamn
I am watching Luke Cage, and I am starting to think I might be a closet racist, because there are so many black female characters which I am just unable to tell apart
@Puppy we all are
22:07
@Puppy To be fair, shows often dress black characters in a similar style. Having a varied set of costumes is a pretty important step because when they don't I have trouble telling similar people of my race apart.
no
user1804599
Hi.
22:24
@VermillionAzure Depends on what you're doing. Addition and subtraction are generally faster (or cheaper to make single-cycle, depending on your viewpoint). Multiplication and division are about the same. Floating point can let you get at least a first approximation of square root a bit faster (which can help overall speed if you implement your square root with something like a Newton-Raphson iteration).
Ven
Ven
> > Not sure if this is a bug or unimplemented feature.

> Neither, your code is bogus.
This feels so good to answer.
user1804599
link
@Aaron3468 I'm half convinced this is why the japanese use the crazy hair colors
@orlp It is surely used by another header, by searchig which one and why would be way too long :p
user1804599
22:43
user1804599
lol "Wheel of Fortran"
8
losers must attend celine dion show
@Mgetz Unless those are HPC clusters, nobody will be using AVX2. Compilers can't vectorize well. And a lot of server farms are just running Java code simply because it was written that way and it's easier to throw more hardware at it than write better code.
At least while I was at Google, they told us the server farms were mostly running Java, Python, or bash scripts. Very little in the way of "real" code.
Without knowing much about FB's internals, they're probably running PHP in their server farms.
Didn't they use a PHP -> C++ transpiler or something like that?
Even if C++ is 100x faster than PHP or Python, it's cheaper to buy 100x more servers than to poach a bunch of competent C++ people from finance to do the job.
4
22:50
Hey, IIRC they started using C++ to avoid having to buy yet another server farm.
@Morwenn No idea. But that sounds like something that a big company would do.
they ended up using a custom VM with some super-JIT instead
Xeo
Xeo
@Morwenn Hiphop compiler.
they tried transpiling but debugging and stuff was too much of a pain
Even Java would be somewhat acceptable since at least it JITs pretty well.
22:51
and if you're Facebook, 100x more servers is tens of billions of dollars of servers
When you've got the money...
user1804599
23:11
HHVM is cheaper to maintain than HipHop.
It's also faster than HipHop.
@rightfold HHVM is "HipHopVirtualMachine", so you seem to be coming pretty close to saying that it's cheaper to maintain than itself.
In fairness: yes, at one time they did HPHPc, then they switched to HHVM (and yes, HPHPc was a static compiler whereas HHVM uses a JIT compiler).
23:28
WHAT IS UP
I am in concurrent class
@Mysticial So is there a way to simplify language usage patterns so that it doesn't require hiring an experienced amount of people?
nwp
nwp
@VermillionAzure any you problems encountered have?
@nwp wait for it
@nwp wa
catch (InterruptedException e)
// do nothing
@nwp yes. (Java)
@Mysticial SIMD is used a lot in image processing, which is used a lot in different visual effects, including those internal to Windows. Additionally, VLC or Photoshop, almost all audio playback...
Also from Using Floating Point in a WDM Driver (msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/…)
The 64-bit compiler does not use the MMX/x87 registers for floating point operations. Instead, it uses the SSE registers. x64 kernel mode code is not allowed to access the MMX/x87 registers. The compiler also takes care of properly saving and restoring the SSE state...
Also its interesting that the XSTATE_MASK_XXX mask doesn't have fine granularity for different AVX types, like in the Linux kernel. It should be trivial to validate if a binary blob is correctly saving state by just grepping the instructions.
23:47
Linux has a system call that drivers can use to save the entire register state. So the driver doesn't have to do it itself. I'm not about Windows. But supposedly, it's better not to do that since the call is expensive.
@Mysticial Is that what's being used for setjmp/longjmp?
@VermillionAzure No idea.
hmmm
Why is MMX/x87 not allowed for 64-bit kernel code?
@Mysticial Yeah, this is the equivalent in Windows. The neat thing is that in Linux you have more fine granularity. It would seem inefficient if the same call was used for both AVX256 and AVX512.
But an alternative is for the instruction set to be determined by static analysis (for example, what Singularity did). MS in recent built a lot of tooling to static validate driver binaries.
@Mikhail Isn't that the halting problem?
23:52
No self modifying code (I think), so if you don't see an AVX512 instruction you don't need to push the whole AVX512 register set. Maybe.
Another thing that I'm always wondering about is if the silicon used for Intel's iGPU is shared by the AVX units?
No, it's a separate die.
Hold on. I might be wrong.
So, I've always got about the same walltimes for my auto-vectorized (slightly compute bound) code and the OCL version. Maybe OCL also runs on the AVX...
Same die, but not shared:
They are physically too far apart to share execution resources.

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