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07:09
aaaand we're dead
Why do most people lean towards 0 on that poll?
@Aaron3468 Probably because they compiled it
@Shoe Abel struck the ground, wandering in the Promised Land for sustenance.
@VermillionAzure That would be irritating to debug. Just changing the final argument to 0.0 fixes its behaviour.
@Aaron3468 But do you know why? Sigh std::accumulate
Why are you in <numeric> instead of <algorithm>? Oh, thee, std::accumulate how yonder youth fleets from thou. Ye grammar, mark, perhaps smoothens from the vine like lice from the womb.
Not very well why, but I know it's a type-coercion failure despite pretty explicit statements that double is the intended type. 0 parses as an int instead of an indeterminate type as it should.
07:19
@Aaron3468 But 0 is an int.
Likewise, 0.0 is a double.
Another hilarious issue is that adding integers together is prone to overflow, while adding floating numbers together is prone to inaccuracies (see khan summation). From personal experience, when I need a sum of integers I switch to double/float... Problem becomes very clear when trying to find the average pixel intensity of an eight bit, unsigned char image...
Still C++ is nowhere near as bad as python where dogs can be houses if you knock on the door. 0 is an int, but it's ambiguous whether the programmer meant 0. Better to check context first because it's a common initialization value for many different types (even if the compiler is clear which type 0 is by default, programmers get careless sometimes)
@Aaron3468 Why do you think it's ambiguous?
Because if the programmer means 0 then the programmer means 0.
(yes I get it, it's frustrating)
This problem of intent is probably the most important problem with programming languages
Either a) It's non-intuitive or b) The programmer is wrong
It's not ambiguous in the standard. But the difference between 0, 0.0, false, and 0x0 is slim
@Aaron3468 If you're talking about physical representation, yes. But as far as the typed values, they shouldn't be.
There should be a very large difference between false and 0 and 0.0 if you're being very type-strict
07:26
@VermillionAzure I agree, though in a language with strong typing, implicit conversions should be warnings.
@Aaron3468 Implicit conversions should be errors. The compilation process is what needs to be streamlined.
By not converting the type in std::accumulate, you are liable to shoot yourself in the foot in a big way, where common values will overflow.
Yeah, I suppose there are a lot of solutions to it (many better than mine).
I wonder why incremental compilation hasn't taken off more...
@Mikhail lol, yes, this is always where I get bitten. Conversion between floating point and int is not as straight forward as it could be, and there've been many times 5/4 yields 0 (or worse 0.0) before I catch the problem
I'm partial to Rust's decision to stop compilation and tell the programmer to be more clear ^^;
07:37
@Aaron3468 I can believe 4/5 gave 0, but I surely hope 5/4 didn't.
@Aaron3468 For this particular problem, I think Pascal did things pretty well: / always produces a floating point result. If you want integer division, that's div.
@JerryCoffin Oh lord, I messed up the order. Damn, where was the warning before my message compiled! I agree, it seems counterintuitive that so many languages default to integer division when floating division is generally intended.
@JerryCoffin How is the speed of fixed point compared to floating point?
@Aaron3468 I kind of disagree though... Floating point is very very different from integral arithmetic
@VermillionAzure it doesn’t make a difference as long as you throw your computer hard enough
@LucDanton whoosh
@VermillionAzure Fair enough, there's definitely a large difference. I advocate choosing consistent and intuitive defaults for casting, but retaining a rich set of operations. And in this case, a more effective decision might be an implicit cast to a fixed-point integer type rather than to floating point
07:50
@Aaron3468 The question really is, "What is intuitive?"
Because that's not something many people can answer definitively.
^ Exactly. The only solution to not knowing what is intuitive is to have a reasonably rich set of primitives and primitive operations. Or lacking that, a way to expand them with minimal overhead.
Decisions like, "Well I think this is better!" "No this is better!" "But templates!" Too much freedom, and the effects of language design are not too well known around the block
@Aaron3468 And sometimes, not even that. Because too many primitives also induces noise.
@VermillionAzure ah yes I can tell from that sound you are using the air cannon approach, that should do the trick
@LucDanton Ohh ho ho I finally got the joke :)
Only a trebuchet can do it better
07:53
Hey
Do you guys want to do something fun?
I actually would love to get feedback on the code for my project
@VermillionAzure Absolutely! Keep the coverage broad and lean. Numerical primitives are the only types I really love to have lots of
For example, continuations are great... Until you realize that they implicitly may require copying the entire stack at the time and keeping it in hand until the last reference to it goes out...
(depending on flavor)
> Il tente de braquer son bar habituel, les clients le reconnaissent "Mais c'est J-C!"
l’histoire ne raconte pas s’il était ivre virgule cc @AldwinCheung
évidemment c’était dans le nord
Curry is a guilty pleasure too. Sometimes abstractions are a great way to be inefficient
08:02
@Aaron3468 which one
the spicy kind or the curvy kind
user1804599
08:15
Why is graphic design in sports so awful?
websites for listing real estate rental/sales must be making a fortune - a listing for a house rent ad on a well known website here costs $254 ... and it's for 2 weeks.
08:37
@Telkitty use facebook for posting ads
not on facebook ... weekly rent is $500+ so a couple hundred for ad to get decent tenant is worth it
many free websites I can use
but quality of the tenants are not as good
09:02
> Make kits the class mechanic instead of crappy toolbelt skills. Allow one or two to be equipped to F1/F2 just like revenant legends. Boom, now engineers can use their utility slots for actual utilities.
@AldwinCheung thoughts?
09:22
@LucDanton Jésus-Christ le retour ?
selon le récit il n’a pas distribué de pains alors j’y crois pas
@LucDanton Um, well, I guess that could work, but then it'd require a lot of reworking of some utilities.
Not all toolbelt skills are crappy IMO (but I do agree plenty are)
yeah, I don’t think it’s anet’s style to do a whole rework so many years after the fact. still, interesting food for thought. I could never quite put down what bugged me about kits
Yes the idea is interesting indeed.
Do you remember during the beta, the mine skill used to be a kit.
I actually got into the game almost by impulse, so I didn’t follow the build-up. I think I saw some of the early skill previews (things like mesmer portal, necromancer bone minions if that rings a bell) and that’s it
@AldwinCheung so like plant mine, plant bleeding mine, plant freezing mine etc.? and then they came to their senses and realised that was the bomb kit?
09:35
Even worse. You had 5 identical mines that you could place individually (and that became the toolbelt skill essentially).
lol the current medkit works like that, but with health packs
Medkit is garbage
It's the permaswiftnesskit
no they remade it
we don’t talk about it anymore
Without my authorisation?
unless you authorised a shitty heal cone skill that mostly heals the ground
09:37
This? Looks ghastly.
Nobody sane plays anything other than the healing turret :w
I guess elixir is viable in some setups too
the healing gyro has seen use though
> Bug: While the tooltip shows the Gyro Heal having a coefficient of 0.6, the actual coefficient is 0.4.
lol
reminder that utility goggles are still in the game, barely changed from their conception
sad!
but then again see racial skills
also the 3 characteristics thingy
oh that’s more or less gone away now
it’s 'still' in the game but it’s not in the UI anymore
09:55
@orlp That's pretty cool. Savant has been doing things like this lately too.
user1804599
@Ven omg no wtf
Ven
Ven
@rightfold :|
10:13
10 hours ago, by blelbach
https://twitter.com/blelbach/status/834187280793243648 <- Inputz desired.
what the fuck
Ven
Ven
C++?
user1804599
@Ven its an improvement but I'm not going to manually update all my code
Ven
Ven
:P
@AldwinCheung Racist.
Ven
Ven
10:25
indeed
good
Life without SO is possible?
return back to those dark 90s early 2000s
I do like that they are not so shite that chat dies when the main site dies
I am sure you are able to find another site to camp on
but I think SE is making enough $ to stay alive for a long time
They making enough to stay onfloat..
but they don't innovate ,, like facebook does.
well facebook doesn't innocvate lately.. they replicate / doing M&A things
having to find another website active enough to camp on is like having to find another house to move into, feasible but full of pain
10:36
facebook has always been a shit shop
vast majority of their solutions are "throw enough PHP and servers at it to work"
Ven
Ven
i.imgur.com/tsb2QTz.mp4 @Morwenn @Borgleader @jaggedSpire
I mean sure they have Haxl and stuff but dunno
Besides I keep thinking that I'd really like my next job to be more... meaningful
Like dunno, Airbus, L/M, something like that
Maybe Tesla
Facebook and Google are just platforms for bulk selling of personal info and ads.
@Ven Do want *-*
argc--; argv++; ugh
10:41
@BartekBanachewicz What's the problem
not much more than "it's C" really
{ argc, argv } is probably the earliest version of array_view I guess
Dec 22 '11 at 12:52, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Fuck Google.
5
I mean do respect the creativity of the author, but the fact that those are two separate statements is ringing all the wrong bells in my head
The queen is one of the largest landladies in the world
10:43
{ argc--; argv++; } fixed :P
@BartekBanachewicz When people tell me I work in an "industry with no morality" (which I kind of agree), I ask them what's worse, to work for a bank or to work for FB?
well, tech giants are not any worse than any of the financial companies or the crown
hell of a choice
@AldwinCheung depends on which one I own more, I wouldn't mind working for any company that I own 10% or more shares in ...
@AldwinCheung it’s the bank
10:47
@AldwinCheung FB wouldn't exist without banks, QED.
essentially, FB, google, a bank or the government, it's just a job unless you are the a significant owner or a partner
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also banks are kind of an "inevitable" construct in a society I think
Eventual banksistency.
we only need banks because of the rich
if everyone was poor we could get rid of them
No, even poor people would invent banks eventually
@AldwinCheung I think it's interesting that banks exist even under sharia laws where interest is forbidden.
10:49
@R.MartinhoFernandes From what I understand they still have interests, they just don't call it that way. It's a one time "borrowing fee". ICBWT.
We need banks because money are like the blood in the capitalist society and banks collectively act like the heart
if anyone’s wondering how that works, the banks feign it and play it cool
@AldwinCheung I know. The point is that they're so desirable that everyone's willing to look the other way.
Oh, indeed :)
Pretty sure that if you put 10 people on an island, with no prior knowledge and each with a different function, one of them will end up acting as a bank.
@BartekBanachewicz I think central banks were invented by communists (i.e. "if everyone was poor")
10:51
@AldwinCheung not really
most of the banks employees aren't rich BTW
Totally relevant.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's not that those religious freaks were ever very consistent in their silly laws. Cue "god can't see me sin, so I'll flip over his image on the wall". Or "Allah can't see us drink in the dark". Or w/e
Being religious is inherently hypocritical
Well, religion is by definition outside rational logic, so.
medium sized landlady in a developed country is the best career a woman can have, hopefully I will get there ...
10:54
@AldwinCheung I had a relevant link but lost it
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think any of those is an example of hypocrisy.
@LucDanton I got that &
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh well I guess for them it makes sense if that's what you mean
@BartekBanachewicz Those statements don't even have contradictions in them.
They just sound silly, but that's a subjective measure.
ugh
1 am
still need to do work
10:58
@AldwinCheung here you go
> Since 1968, he had championed the idea that income tax was illegal, and stopped paying his own income taxes in 1974. This resulted in Irwin being jailed many times throughout the years, including the final 14-year sentence during which he passed away.
if you needed to know about the author
so it wasn't a Lost reference :(
@LucDanton lol that guy
I think he lost every single court case he brought up.
http://www.kitguru.net/gaming/jon-martindale/twitch-streamer-dies-after-22-hours-straight-gaming/

It Should be Read and sent to trashed bin straight away :P
@ProblemSlover what?
@BartekBanachewicz ... what
11:10
@LucDanton Interesting but overly simplistic so far
> The noble thing about private capitalism is that it forces those who may only be motivated by personal gain to raise the standard of living of others!
I mean, lol
don’t worry it tackles the good stuff right after
Oh wow indeed.
oh page 55, you crack me up
> Democracy rears its ugly head
Lol. Nice Trick..

http://thehackernews.com/2017/02/HoeflerText-font-chrome.html
Hey
Does anybody have a better alternative to bash shell scripting?
11:23
Python
@VermillionAzure why, zsh shell scripting
or perhaps more topically, fish shell scripting
@LucDanton oh lmao it really says that
11:29
...
sigh, I kept on forgetting to recharge my prepaid mobile in time :/
I would not lie now would I?
I don't really need it, so many I will recharge it in 3 months time ...
@LucDanton I like how this part gets extremely handwavy
So uh
Are there any serious alternatives to bash scripting...?
@VermillionAzure Sure. Windows Command prompt :P
...
Why do I come here again?
4
@VermillionAzure for what task?
I mean, bash scripting is terrible for drawing class diagrams. UML is perfect.
if you receive stupid answers
11:37
@Telkitty Right now I'm creating a Makefile to basically handle building one test case right now...
Bash scripting is also terrible for growing plants, so take up botany.
And the build system is basically centered around GNU Make but
It just keeps getting bigger
makefile is is usually written shell script yes, but test case can surely be written in any scripting language?
run-test run test tests docs test-docs clean clean-tests clean-test-docs
Like, it's getting a little bit out of hand...
I think CMake would probably be a good alternative but I didn't want to have to burden my team with learning CMake
And I don't really know CMake that well
lolwut
What's any of this got anything to do with bash scripting.
11:41
I dunno I was just scripting something small to basically run all the tests nicely
Just been thinking
There's a better alternative to bash scripting, right? And I'd point at Python but I honestly don't know
is It it {}; /* n.b. value init */ it < it; well defined for a random-access iterator? it looks that way in the spec
cos I’m used to carefully writing equality comparisons so that it works for value-initialised iterators, since that’s mentioned explicitly
but it never occurred to me to see if I have to do the same for the rel. ops
> The domain of == for forward iterators is that of iterators over the same underlying sequence. However, value-initialized iterators may be compared and shall compare equal to other value-initialized iterators of the same type.
what a nightmare
@R.MartinhoFernandes I, too, am deep inside flags
mutable optional<position_t<Ctx>> current_pos {};
@R.MartinhoFernandes you still work at NI right?
mutable to implement the broken copies of input iterators of course
I have a sound question WRT bass resonance and speaker sizes
@LucDanton Now I only have mutable stuff in deferred_view
And it's just the flag.
Though I still have other flags around.
11:53
> By the way, N3644 is only for == and != operators or also for ordering
> ones like < ?

For any comparisons, but you can only compare value-initialized
iterators to other value-initialized iterators.
what does that mean
I'm guessing value_inited0 < value_inited1 is false, but value_inited0 < begin(x) is not valid.
I suppose, at least the wording is quite clear
what about the 'for any comparisons' part of the answer though?
my trouble is that n3644 added the explicit wording for equality comparing, but that’s because == had domain wording
the relops don’t have a domain spelled out meaning there’s no wording to fix, and I guess you have to trace their semantics
12:09
I’m probably reading too much into it + 0, let’s go with the fact that it + n requires it to be dereferenceable
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah.
12:35
Oh hey
it works
It's really REALLY ugly but it works
So I'll play along when I hear that requirement
I'm gonna be the one to implement it right
You better move before I get bored out of the room
Looks like my magic fingers will be only mine
Is that a song?
But I don't feel like coding
When the old Scott leaves
My brain could take a chance
But my two hands can't find a way
You'd think that I could muster up a little soft-shoe gentle sway
Why do I feel like this is a Blink-182 song...?
But I don't feel like codin'
No sir, no coding today
Don't feel like codin', codin'
Even if I find nothing better to do
Don't feel like codin', coding
Why'd you pick that tone when I'm not in the mood
Don't feel like codin', coding
12:40
Please can you stop the noise I'm trying to make a test...?
I'd rather be home with the one in the bed till dawn, with you <3
@VermillionAzure lol, not even close
@Shoe Eminem?
...Aqua...?
Britney Spears
TINY TIM?!
12:44
oh
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
ok
@VermillionAzure It's alright, it's ok
@LucDanton The guy completely loses his shit from page 55 onwards, basically.
Woo, 4 people for nomic
@AldwinCheung You bastard, why don't you nomic with us?
There's gonna be fights, trolling, miserable times, etc...
12:48
Can somebody take a look at our code? I'd love to get an issue ticket from Lounge
@VermillionAzure link
@Shoe What's nomic
The game where you vote to change rules?
Yes
@AldwinCheung I’m glad I didn’t disappoint you
12:49
I don't know how to play
It's basically a Trump simulator
Democracy simulator*
Oligharchy simulator?
@AldwinCheung Let me find the old rules
@Shoe I don't mind joining if you're OK to play with a beginner (but otherwise very intelligent and adorable person (also modest)) in UTC+8
I'm expecting to have beginners, no worries
It's easy to grasp anyway
12:51
@LucDanton Also IIRC you don't like Achille Talon
It's harder to join in later, because things will probably get complicated
@AldwinCheung you recall incorrectly
@LucDanton Then I imagine you've read this.
Here are the old rules we used IIRC
Basically immutable rules = constitution
I am reading this line 'genius love to read' ... then a question hits me: how can we reduce a 3D space + time into 2D space, wouldn't there be any lose in information, wouldn't we learn any knowledge in this 3D + time space faster in the same or higher dimensions?
12:52
jte cache pas j’étais tout gamin et ça remonte :(
@LucDanton Te voilà démasqué, on sait désormais que tu as au moins 25 ans
@Shoe How do you play btw? Is it software-assisted or purely "on paper" (as in mailing list or forum or whatever)
I can't believe I just wrote that
@AldwinCheung Forum
But hey gotta modernize, uh, analogies
also humans tend to introduce plenty of low info knowledge or no info garbage, how do I find the ones with the highest information concentration pertain to me?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you by any chance remember where the old nomic forum was?
12:54
je regarde des planches et ça me parle pas, navré
pourtant je touche du bois hohoho
@Telkitty PCA.
PCA is usually the go-to to reduce dimensionality of data. t-SNE is an alternative algorithm
@LucDanton Alors lis-le
12:56
@AldwinCheung But it doesn't have the old posts unfortunately
@AldwinCheung non trop au nord
@Shoe There's an old gist with the rules we ended up with gist.github.com/rmartinho/2f6500e799607b26cfa9
j’ai été inspiré par J.-C., je lui dois tout
13:01
> Chausse-trappes et désillusions : les lois de l’argent expliquées aux enfants
@AldwinCheung I’m running into the funniest things looking for it lol
> ORTHODOXIE ET HETERODOXIE EN ECONOMIE ET EN BD
Ah mais non, j'aime aussi les femmes
Pretty nice mini cases
I’ve always wondered what’s up with the large grids, are you supposed to cram the case with fans
@AldwinCheung bon euh va falloir que je me coltine des arbres morts ou truc du même acabit on dirait :(
même pas à la bibliothèque pff
@Ven That's how I want to wake up every morning :3
Ven
Ven
13:11
defo :)
@LucDanton Inacceptable
pour les bibliothèques c’est probablement un complot
13:32
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nice
13:47
in TeX, LaTeX and Friends on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 2 mins ago, by David Carlisle
@wilx top one is U+1F3C3 second is U+1F3C3 U+1F3FC (where the second character is EMOJI MODIFIER FITZPATRICK TYPE-3)
^ /cc @R.MartinhoFernandes
Insane.
Hello :)
hello there
Do You Know C++?

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