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18:06
@Mysticial "Commencing unit tests. Estimated completion time: 105 days". :-)
@JerryCoffin The largest Pi computation I've personally ever done is 250 billion. That was back in like 2011 and it took 4 days on my dual-socket 64GB server. Nowadays, my standard "large-size" test is 100 billion which takes 12 hours. It's something I usually run overnight on the weekends.
But 100 billion is still a far-cry from 22 trillion. lol
posted on November 15, 2016 by Herb Sutter

On Saturday, the ISO C++ committee completed its fall meeting in Issaquah, WA, USA. We had over 110 people at the meeting, representing 10 national bodies. We also had more than usual local visitors – note that ISO C++ meetings are open and we always welcome people who are curious to see what goes on. […]

The largest arithmetic operation that I've ever personally tested was to multiply a 5 trillion digit number with itself. That was also back in like 2011-ish. Since then, I no longer do those tests since I've deemed them redundant of 100b pi tests.
"The trip was decent but meh.
Would not recommend mushrooms from this guy."
"We almost added modules in."
10
@Mysticial Ended up using cdw.com/shop/products/… (LRDIMM)
I'm thinking of getting another shit ton of RAM because even with 24 HGST drives, I'm still IO limited
18:21
I hate code review at my company so much
and I really hate my manager
@Mikhail When you use LRDIMMs, you didn't have to worry about any of the dual vs. quad rank shit right? IOW, they're all the same?
@Mysticial Oh, but what's an order of magnitude (or two, or even three) among friends? :-)
From what I've read, when you're using RDIMMs, there is a limited # of "ranks" you can put in each lane. So if you use quad-rank DIMMs, you won't be able to fill all the slots.
I copied some code from one file to another and this immediately means that I must fix every speck of technical debt in it just because he noticed it in the diff
I've downloaded PlatformIO
looks cool
Xeo
Xeo
18:23
@Puppy Code Review awesome
@Puppy Yesh.
code review is awesome if the developers know how to actually use it
all I get from half the members of my team is incessant whining about bracket placement
Xeo
Xeo
Wait, technical debt in the source or destination of the copy?
@Xeo Both, since it's a copy and I did not change it.
@Puppy Does seem like a somewhat...shortsighted way of setting priorities.
well, a move, not a copy.
Xeo
Xeo
18:24
I'd agree with fixing up the shit you copied, but touching the source if it's unrelated feels wrong.
@JerryCoffin Just to add to this situation, he says in standup meetings every morning that he did not get time to do his work.
So, the ones I got say "Product Highlights
• Eliminate channel ranking limitations associated with
standard DDR4 RDIMMs"
and also, this is an urgent feature request from a customer to be shipped, like, tomororw.
@JerryCoffin That was more of an issue between 1 billion and 100 billion. That's where the majority of the 32-bit integer overflow bugs showed up. But most of that got fixed during the 2012 rewrite when I gave the program a proper type-system for integers. Fortunately, the algorithms are regular enough that they can be expected to work at orders of magnitude larger than what they are tested for.
@Xeo The destination is equally unrelated. It's just in a different place.
18:25
@Puppy Okay, so in this case it's not just shortsighted, but plain wrong and stupid.
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy "unrelated to the task at hand".
that's what I just said ;p
Xeo
Xeo
what.
you said you copied code for a feature. how the fuck is the destination of said copy then unrelated?
the destination is also totally unrelated to the task at hand.
@Mikhail Ah. And of course LRDIMMs are a lot more expensive.
18:27
@Xeo Because the copy wasn't remotely necessary in the first place and the only reason I did it was to make him shut up the first time.
Xeo
Xeo
what.
also, I changed the structure of the code, I did not change the implementation of this piece at all.
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy what.
I just moved it into another file.
Xeo
Xeo
18:27
But why, if it was unrelated?
because I needed another bit of code from the source file that was related.
@Mysticial Well, I'm not quite sure. 128GB for 1k ish? What price you got on the channel stuff?
so I moved one out of the way so I could get at the other properly
> Mankind is a fickle creature whose intentions are often contradictory and harmful to the self
Xeo
Xeo
Okay
That seems more sensible
18:29
I split the file up into pieces and then changed one piece as necessary.
@Mikhail I think RDIMMs are like $700 for 4 x 32GB.
I expect things are gonna change a year from now when Skylake Purley is available.
really though
my boss is my managers boss (small company)
and when my boss finds out the feature will be late
he will hold me responsible
even though the thing's been mergable for a week now and it's just my manager endlessly whining about unrelated technical debt that it hasn't gone in
I'm looking at 384 or 768 GB in a 6-channel configuration. Learning towards for the former since 768 GB is gonna be expensive.
it really fucks me off to be responsible for other people's decisions
I intend to kill 2 birds with that build: AVX512 and NUMA
18:31
Today I managed to hide a bug instead of actually fixing the root of the problem.
I think I'm gonna start looking for a new job
@Mysticial Well if you want to test NUMA can't you buy an old rusty server?
Ell
Ell
@Puppy do you have the privileges to just do the merge?
@Mikhail I want to test the two together. The old rusty servers won't be as memory bound as Skylake Purley. That said, I still have my quad-opteron with single-channel memory. But I have limited access to it. Bringing it back to Chicago is gonna be a PITA.
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy We're hiring!
2
18:33
@Ell I do on the customer's special release branch.
been thinking that I might just do that
@Mysticial What I never understood was what exactly NUMA ment for the OS. In my Linux Kernel 3rd edition book it says NUMA means the system is segmented into memory zones. But machines like like SGI's big brain machine also combined motherboards without using MPI.
@Xeo Wait, you would actually want to employ me? ;p
One problem remains with Skylake Purley: If I get the cheaper chips (12 cores or less), it won't be very representative of the "mainstream" ones running with 20 cores+.
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy talk to boss, explain situation, then suggest ignoring manager and merging?
I'm thinking I'm gonna have to do that
18:35
@Mysticial You should get an MPI layer going instead of relying on the OEM to merge the the machine nodes.
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy Probably. Especially since I'd get a 2k bonus.
problem is that
well, relations between the boss and the dev team are not great right now
we had some unsustainable working practices and my manager has been trying to correct them
in that way he's doing an acceptable job I think
not sure if I would cause damage to the bigger picture if I told my boss
@Morwenn You should be ashamed of yourself!
Xeo
Xeo
did you talk to manager to explain the urgency?
he's the one who agreed to bring it on in the middle of the sprint in the first place
18:36
@wilx I plan to find and fix the root of the problem too, but deadlines D:
Xeo
Xeo
@Morwenn sometimes, actually fixing a bug can be really really tough :<
@Puppy we've abolished sprints a week ago \o/
I think we do not use them very effectively
@Morwenn Excuses, excuses.
I have one colleague who basically doesn't work to the sprints at all and always gets work directly requisitioned from the boss
@Mikhail I've determined that MPI is too difficult and complicated to expose to the ugly (math-heavy) portion of the program. Instead, I'm looking to scale up the concept of "global far memory". That "global memory" for now will be either interleaved NUMA or interleaved disk. But since it's on the other side of the API, it's possible to build a caching layer underneath using MPI-like semantics to move data between nodes.
Xeo
Xeo
18:37
I like our new workflow much better already
@wilx I did feel the weight of shame.
and we spend 10% of our time (1 day out of a 2 week sprint) just doing planning and stuff
Xeo
Xeo
also, we're getting rid of SVN end of this week
finally git
sweet
I like git
Xeo
Xeo
we even wrote a tool to help us using git, "git-lock"
since locking is a really nice feature in SVN
18:38
@Morwenn As you should be! You should be as ashamed as walking butt naked in public!
Git felt like a fresh new start after IBM Jazz.
and what's really odd is that my manager wants to commit to doing stuff on a sprint and prefers to do low-priority stuff that's already on the sprint over high-priority stuff
@Xeo Is that where you just ban other people from modifying the file?
@wilx In an ideal society, we wouldn't be ashamed of walking butt-naked in public :p
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy While you're working on it, ye
@Xeo That sounds stupid.
18:39
hmm
Xeo
Xeo
Well, not modifying. But checking in
not sure if that is really going to help you use git
Xeo
Xeo
@wilx No, it's great for binary files that are un-diffable
depends on how you use it
Xeo
Xeo
Like all of Unreal's .uasset files
18:39
@Morwenn But we are not and you should be that much ashamed. :)
if you just lock every file you're gonna use, that's bad
@wilx Too bad, I ain't.
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy No, it's for unmergable files.
but if you use it sparingly and mostly use/learn to use the normal merging/rebasing stuff to resolve conflicts, then it'll be fine
@Xeo Why do you have that many modifications on binary files that you need to lock them?
Xeo
Xeo
18:40
31 secs ago, by Xeo
Like all of Unreal's .asset files
woah
so PlatformIO really works
@Mysticial Why did you think it was too complicated? My personal experience when working with MPI was that developers use OpenMPI, motivating them to write packet routers, which fucked their programs. On the other hand vendors like CRAY/IBM have these implemented in hardware (maybe) on the motherboard's interconnect. Meaning that the communication overhead was drastically reduced. So, if you're using a real computer you can just use send()/recv() naively and get great performance.
yeah, sounds good when used for unmergable files
that's great fucking news
Xeo
Xeo
18:41
git-lock even locks them across branches (since we wanna do feature branches)
and dealing with concurrent modification to blueprints is just a pain in the ass
@Xeo I like how perforce does that
P4 is evil.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Ye, Perforce is also really nice for that
feature branches and merge workflow is nice
Xeo
Xeo
we used Perforce at the other company
18:42
lots of small branches
@wilx its binary model is great
rebase is your friend
Xeo
Xeo
I've been learning to work with git through back-end stuff the last couple weeks
since they used it from the beginning
git rebase is fucking awesome.
we use git to generate our quarterly reports for the tax purposes
Xeo
Xeo
18:43
I'd like to get the git training this Friday, but I'll be at Meeting C++ instead.
@Xeo Learning instead of being trained? How dare you?
@Mikhail Because every message needs to have a source and destination. And then you have to have buffers ready at both locations and they need to synchronize. In most cases, when a node is working on a current set of data, it doesn't know who will pick it up next. Who gets it next is determined by a scheduler which won't make that decision until the current node is done. So the only place to vacate the current work is to write it back to a global destination.
Xeo
Xeo
Well well.
Didn't expect 4.14 so soon.
IOW, classic MPI as I know it requires the program to be very well statically partitioned. That's not something I can do. Breaking up a power-of-two FFT onto an odd number of nodes is not trivial for a pure MPI point-to-point semantics.
well, fuck, finally my libraries work
that's a breakthrough
bye arduino shit
Xeo
Xeo
18:45
> On the Windows platform, C++ programmers can now use Visual Studio "15" for development.
ohooo
Unfortunately, iOS and Android builds mean I still wouldn't be able to tinker with new features :<
so how would I get around this:
Maxim<comm::Sender<comm::HardwareSpi, comm::MultiplexLatcher<4, Pins::pins>>>* maxim;
I want to only type it once when initializing it :F
one obvious alternative is an "init" method
Xeo
Xeo
aliases, bitch
#define
also single letter names
@Mikhail seriously
@Mikhail lol ok
18:48
@Mikhail So rather than point-to-point communication, I'm going to pay the factor of two communication cost to obtain a global memory with many layers of caching to make it fast. And even then, I'm not convinced that the factor-of-two performance lost is actually true since the cache can be designed to directly send the data to the next node which needs it.
Xeo
Xeo
> New: UI Font Outlines
OMG FINALLY
@Mysticial So, from what I understand you gotta MPI somewhere or else you can't get past a single compute node.
Xeo
Xeo
> New: Editable Map and Set Properties
yay
@Mikhail Correct. The MPI layer will be hidden as a implementation detail of the "global far memory".
The main code will work by reading and writing to the global memory. It knows that global memory will be slow and will use local memory as a cache.
The global memory has a very clear interface and can be implemented in a number of ways. I currently have 3 implementations of it: Flat memory in RAM. Interleaved NUMA. Interleaved disk.
@BartekBanachewicz auto?
18:53
But you can easily throw a network layer on it and have multiple nodes working off the same "global memory". That would be implemented either using MPI or raw network sockets.
@Puppy that requires me to initialize it when it's declared
can't do that
that is the problem you should resolve then
declaring uninitialized shit is a bad plan
unless it's a member or something I guess
http://stackoverflow.com/posts/40617507/revisions
11/10 indentation /cc @Mysticial
ahaha inverted
@Puppy I can't.
18:57
why not?
@Puppy because Arduino provides me with "setup" and "loop" functions
and I need to stick to them
ah
so you're using a shit library and wish to work around it
kinda
I'd rather stop using it frankly
oh interesting, apparently there's an Arduino framework build for the STM32
Xeo
Xeo
> Bugfix: Fixed a crash caused when compiling a Blueprint after hot-reloading its base class.
took 'em long enough
> Fixed a memory overrun when reading an SSL certificate.
lol
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz i use clang (okay apple clang)
@BartekBanachewicz the 180° you did in haskell was p interesting btw
19:09
what 180?
got it
@Ven what 180?
so apparently you can simply define your own main in Arduino
that's helpful
Ven
Ven
@AlexM. but lolroutines first!!!11
@BartekBanachewicz like it->dislike it
I like haskell
he graduated to c#, natural evolution
Ven
Ven
@Xeo what do you do?
Xeo
Xeo
19:17
gaemz
(specifcally, mobile)
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz it'd take me 5-6 seconds to find messages where you declare hating it
Like I fucking hate mobile phones
Xeo
Xeo
> New: Added a way to mark text in text properties as culture invariant.

This enables you to flag properties containing text that doesn't need to be gathered.
ooh
> New: Translations are now exported/imported per-identity rather than collapsing identical strings within the same namespace.
finally
user1804599
I'm so happy with new Halogen.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Does PureScript count?
user1804599
19:26
I wrote a wonderful UI: lpaste.net/508266515707985920 :3
Ven
Ven
@Xeo so long you're not gameloft
Xeo
Xeo
> Bugfix: Fixed a crash where sometimes the Crash Reporter Client would crash if it didn’t receive a ping responses from the Epic crash server.
heh
Yo dawg, I heard you like crashes...
Xeo
Xeo
> New: Added MakeShared to enable the construction of an object and its reference controller in a single allocation.
they're starting to catch up with standard C++...
> New: Added TLess<> and TGreater<> specializations which can take any argument type.
hehe
19:39
> New: Reimplemented the standard library
so there's this class here
it sends stuff out
but the sending function doesn't take that byte
the class has a field that it sets and then sends
~embedded~
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD basically.
it's really really annoying
For all the gamedevs that hate the standard lib, you think they would have come together to just write their own cross-platform STL themselves and then used defines to just forward definitions to an existing implementation if it worked, otherwise hacked it up themselves.
19:55
@ThePhD there was the EAstl
nwp
nwp
@ThePhD Their argument is that making something generic means you do not make the best use of the given hardware/constraints and thus any standard library is by definition bad. Including the EASTL.
.... This is fucking weird.
Why are they pushing so hard to hire me so fast.... ???
user1804599
omg
I'll have to get in Discord and ask about it later.
user1804599
Data.List.mapWithIndex exists.
user1804599
19:59
I didn't know!
user1804599
That saves another one line of code. :P
.Select((x, i) => ...
"Pure development work"
@Mysticial This sounds like I'm being trapped into being a code jockey. The pay seems way too high for it, too, like they're trying to twist my arm into it.
Pls guide me Mysticial-senpai.
Ven
Ven
get rekt :3
@ThePhD Do lockless queues and SIMD.
Ven
Ven
20:10
\o/
@Ven qq pls the catface isn't helping my disposition any
Ven
Ven
but it is pleased :3
/cc @jaggedSpire
@ThePhD I can't decide on what you want to do with your life anyway. I'm struggling enough with it myself. 'twould be foolish to try and help others
Heh.
@Morwenn OMG you said lockless.
@ThePhD That's part of why the pay is so high. For one they need really good C++ programmers. Those are actually very rare. So the supply and demand drives them up. Secondly, finance firms are usually managed differently. There's less of an emphasis on code quality and maintainability than in tech. So you'll find yourself sifting through swamp after swamp of nothing but heaps of technical debt.
20:16
@StackedCrooked So? :o
Ven
Ven
TRIGGERED
Figures that the one place that wants to hire me fast might be setting me up to be a code monkey and then chop my legs later with a non-compete and a generous severance package when I'm done with whatever task the higher-ups decide on, or maybe they'll feed me more if I don't make things difficult for them...
Beginner C++ programmers aren't going to survive getting dumped in a swamp of C++ technical debt. I felt that way when I entered the industry, and I had quite a background in C++ already.
@Mysticial Well, you get paid either way right :-)
20:18
Hey guys, I was wondering which chatroom is the one for answering questions? I don't wanna bug anyone by asking them here.
4
@StackedCrooked Can't lock-free mean at least three different things anyway? :p
yeah, I suppose..
Ven
Ven

C++ Questions and Answers

Solve problems and approach solutions. Just ask and lurkers wi...
Thanks :)
@Mikhail Put it this way. The managers aren't necessarily former software developers. They don't know code nor do they know to code. If they want a feature done, they hire someone to do it. If the person can't do it, they get fired. If the person says they can't do it because there's too much technical debt, the manager doesn't care and they replace him with someone else who can do it. And so the cycle goes on.
20:19
@Mysticial wow, that sounds pretty bad
So you're left with code that's technical debt piled on technical debt. Usually done by people who are no longer there.
@Mysticial Indeed, but typically the guy who sucked also got paid during that period.
@StackedCrooked Just as I was sitting down to eat my lunch, I felt a disturbance in The Force, as if somebody had just accused me of pedanticism...
Then they pay someone to redo everything from scratch, but give them 3 weeks to do so, and they basically just develop technical debt 2.0.
@JerryCoffin Nah. Just enjoy your lunch :)
20:21
The place that I'm at now is better. In that they (usually) let me do things right rather than just hack it on and move on. But I still find myself drowned in technical debt of existing code.
Part of the reason I got fired from my old place is because it took me 3 months to implement a new feature on top of a heap of technical debt. That's too long for them. So they got rid of me.
@Mysticial did you still get paid?
@Mikhail yes
Got any more of that technical debt lying around ?
Entry level programmers are very unlikely to get anything done with that much ugly code. So they target the experienced programmers and "hope" they know how to swim in debt. If they can't, they get rid of them and find someone else.
But the only way to get experienced programmers who have any chance of getting anything done is to poach them out of tech with very high compensation.
Which is ironic because entry level programmers are likely to make the debt
Like drowning in tears
Anonymous
20:26
Hello there !
I got hired into my current job more for a researchy position than a "hard-core programmer". So I had the luxury to do new things the way I wanted to do them and without too much time pressure which I don't perform well under.
That's nice.
So to summarize why finance pays more than tech:
1. C++ programmers who know what they're doing are extremely rare.
2. Of those, very few of them can swim in technical debt.
3. With so little supply and a lot of demand for them, price goes up.
At least that's my theory based on what I've seen.
Ven
Ven
@Mysticial Let's just say your code is better optimized than your refactorings
@Mysticial Sounds like exactly what I'm walking into, tbh.
20:34
Most of the guys who hang out in the Lounge satisfy #1. I'm less sure about #2.
Especially this line from the e-mail: "... would you be okay with doing pure development work if required?"
@ThePhD Yes, that's exactly what you're walking into.
@Mysticial I think so too.
It's not "if required", it's "yes this is exactly what you're going to do, you'll have almost no team members, no documentation, no help to implement cutting edge proprietary fintech technique X".
Xeo
Xeo
@Mysticial 4. Willingness to put up with ridiculous hours / workloads?
20:36
At this point, I wonder if I should back out now or step forward and see how far into the hiring process I can get.
@Xeo Yeah, that too. But that partially goes with #2 since failing to do #2 will result in ridiculous hours and workloads.
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD what other prospects do you have?
@Mysticial I think you've left out a fairly important point: of the people who could do the job, only a few are willing to do so.
@Xeo My sanity.
Xeo
Xeo
job-wise
20:38
@ThePhD You don't need to make a decision until you have an offer from them. IOW, move forward, get all the way to an onsite interview. Then decide.
Nothing so far. Everything's turned up blank, 8 lines thrown out, no responses yet.
Xeo
Xeo
(Psst: We're hiring!)
Ven
Ven
ye too far, @Xeo
also I suck at code so
Xeo
Xeo
We also accept international workers and help with relocation and visa application etc.
@Xeo I think I'd have trouble obtaining a VISA to work in Germany and become a resident.
I tried that with Canada and Ludia, it did not work out even just for an internship. I really wanted to work there and even held off my Microsoft Offer for a damn-long time and made the recruiter upset with me while trying to get a Visa to work there but the Ludia person kind of turned up empty on me.
Plus, I'm still trying to see if I can squeeze out an internship rather than a full-time position, so I can consider graduate school.
Ven
Ven
20:40
@Xeo I'm a co-op student still
(..which means I still have school, but only a day every 3 weeks ...)
On the other hand, I would be able to learn German and say sexy German things.
Ven
Ven
Du bist eine Kartoffel
Du bist balabala, as well.
@ThePhD Canada can be weird with that though. My brother spent a couple of years teaching at the University of Waterloo. When his initial work visa (three years?) expired, there was little conflict between the government and the school. The gov't said he could stay if (and only if) he was a tenured professor. The school replied that he was doing well, but nobody received tenure that quickly. He ended up having to come back to the US...
Ell
Ell
oh boy writing regices in emacs is a nightmare :V
user1804599
Du hasst mich
20:46
@Ell Regices?
Ell
Ell
regexen?
I'm not sure what the plural is.
@Ell "Ex" is expressions then RegExes.
Ven
Ven
regexes
@Ell s/ writing regices in// FTW.
Ven
Ven
@JerryCoffin spacemacs is love
20:47
@Ell Why are you writing regexes in Emacs? Is that for search-forward-regexp?
Ell
Ell
@wilx I'm whipping up a major mode for wren (wren.io/syntax.html)
I don't really use regex in emacs ever
well, I usually try then give up vOv
user1804599
regexps
Ell
Ell
regexps yeah
I have a new idea anyway :P
@Ell Well, I used Emacs RegExps for search and replace but it PITA. I am used to Perl REs but they are not Perl REs.
Ell
Ell
I just wanta regex for double quoted strings
"([^\\]|\\[n"])*" like that
but in emacs style
20:51
@Ell Pretty sure no combination of regexes can recognize wren correctly. It allows nested comments, and regexes don't handle nesting well.
Ell
Ell
@JerryCoffin yeah, I know that I'll have to use something else for the comments
@Ell I'd recommend using SNOBOL (for the comments and the rest of the job). Bonus: emacs doesn't include a SNOBOL interpreter, so you're freed of that burden too.
@Ell I think you have to escape the () so that they actually catch the text.
\\([^\\]|\\[n"]\\)*
Ell
Ell
@wilx yeah, every time I attempt, I get lost in a sea of `\`s :P
@wilx right. and now I have to escape the \s once again so I can put this inside a string
Nope.
Ell
Ell
20:55
no?
I mean, I think that if you use "\\([^\\]|\\[n"]\\)*" it will be alright
Ell
Ell
Oh right
I'll try it
no matches, according to re-builder in string mode
I'll try read mode
nwp
nwp
need to escape the " at least
Ell
Ell
the | needs escaping also
see, it's a nightmare >.<

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