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7:00 PM
oh, and if you load code dynamically, then it definitely does totally break automatic parallelisation, since the compiler cannot know whether it does or does not contain dependencies.
if you load code from a DLL, the compiler has no way of knowing if that DLL uses a juicy global variable.
 
Unless it's all multi-processing.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes what are those? yarn?
 
@MooingDuck Damn, I thought it would be obvious. It's a thread pool.
 
@MooingDuck: A thread pool.
 
7:02 PM
Spun wire.
 
@DeadMG So it's your position that an executable format that included such information about exported functions is impossible? If so,why? What is hard about a record in an executable saying "modifies global X"?
 
I guess I'm really bored.
 
@Insilico >.< of course. I feel silly
 
@RMartinhoFernandes did you do it yourself?
 
@bamboon Googling didn't produce results...
 
7:04 PM
@JerryCoffin because that'd have to also record if it modifies any variable that the next iteration might have access to. Which is... pretty much every variable it knows about.
 
@JerryCoffin That's not a compiler feature at all, then. You would have to modify every existing and future binary with such information. In addition, the compiler would have to reject it every time the new binary changed it's data dependencies.
 
@DeadMG It's not the compiler alone, but certainly involves the compiler. Not sure what you mean about "reject it..."
 
If I was using a compiler that had automatic parallelism by default, the first thing I'd do is turn it off so it doesn't interfere my own parallelism.

The problem with automatic tools is that they're great when they do a task well. But if it's inadequate (which is almost always the case with automatic parallelism), people want it out of the way.
 
It's the Dumb/Half-intelligent/Smart thingy.
Only the extremes are interesting.
 
Auto-parallelism and Auto-vectorization are two things which are not "solved" well enough to meet that "adequate" category.
 
7:12 PM
multithreaded rng is impossible in an automated way
 
@MooingDuck I think a reasonable starting point would be 1) pure -- produces output that depends only on inputs. 2) module level -- side effects are restricted to the module in which it lives. 3) Full globals -- may have side effects visible to the whole program.
 
Fortunately for auto-vectorization, it doesn't get in the way. So compilers will enable it by default even though they suck at it.
 
@JerryCoffin If you marked every exported function, you could only detect that at run-time, not at compile-time.
 
@rubenvb Give one to each thread?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes exactly, not automated in the sense of parallel_for or whatever
 
7:14 PM
@rubenvb TLS.
 
@JerryCoffin 99% would be "full globals" though
 
I also think much of that can be handled based on what's currently in a DLL, for example. A typical DLL that doesn't import any globals doesn't get access to them unless you pass it a pointer to them.
 
Purely functional code can be parallelised automatically.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I've thought about that and I'm wondering about seeding. Use seed + k for each thread? With what k?
 
@LucDanton random_device?
 
7:15 PM
@LucDanton Thread ID?
 
Get seed from /dev/random for each thread.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes The amount of entropy such a program uses depends on how many threads are run!
Exclamation mark!
 
@MooingDuck Only in truly horrible code. Offhand, I'd say closer to 70% of what I write would qualify as "pure" and another 25 (or so) as module-level global.
Do you honestly write DLLs that import globals from the host executable on a regular basis?
 
@Collin Thread ID isn't a number.
 
They're hashable, aren't they?
 
7:16 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes you could give it one as you create it
Or a hash
 
They are indeed.
 
@Collin So, a global counter?
Initialize a master rng with random_device and use it for seeding.
 
No but seriously, I was wondering given a specific amount of entropy (so, one seed), is there an obvious thread-local seed to use? Hence the seed + k.
 
Obviously, make it so its next() function is serialized.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Not really different from a global counter
or a thread-creator local counter really
 
7:18 PM
@Collin It has some entropy.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, I haven't seen anything capable of it. OpenMP(I), MSVC parallel stuff, ....
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm going to remember this one.
 
@rubenvb Capable of what? TLS?
 
@JerryCoffin no, but except for getters, they commonly alter the state of some variable that affects the state of the program.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Do you get more entropy out of RNGs seeded with seed and seed + k than seeding them both randomly?
 
7:19 PM
So prepare a RNG, then seed thread-local RNGs with rng(0), rng(1), .... on a first-come/first-serve basis.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes generating random numbers in parallel without any added code complexity
I have done it with std::thread though
 
@rubenvb TLS doesn't make your code any more complex.
 
pretty easily
 
@Collin Ah, no.
For some reason I started thinking the plan was to use k as the seed itself.
 
I can't believe it's finally published!
 
7:22 PM
Argh, I need to memorize more standard library engine names.
 
@FredOverflow johannes, putty and me got it already
 
@bamboon How is it?
 
@bamboon You mean Pubby?
 
Why can't I go to amazon.de ?!?
 
@FredOverflow I believe this is the first book to cover C++11 threading features?
 
7:24 PM
downforeveryoneorjustme.com/amazon.de says it's not just me, do you agree?
@StackedCrooked right
 
@FredOverflow I like it. havn't read that much yet but already learned quite some interesting stuff. given that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. though, one thing to mention is that almost 1/4 of the book is reference.
 
@rubenvb This is the plan I described: ideone.com/84grJ
Shit, MVP.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I know how to multithread rng, I just said there's no autoparallellization I know of that works as good as doing it yourself
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah sorry
@FredOverflow amazon.de works for me
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Should have braced yourselves.
 
7:27 PM
@rubenvb There's no autoparallellization of things that are forcibly sequential.
 
Is there a live linux that supports playing MP3s and such?
 
Because, mind you, using my scheme and using one shared rng for all threads are not the same thing.
I wouldn't want the compiler to transform "one shared rng for all threads" into my scheme. That would change program semantics.
 
@FredOverflow Mint probably does that.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, what I said about 10 minutes ago: this sucks and makes autoparallelllization pretty useless in a simple case
 
@rubenvb No. It doesn't. Because not even you can work your way out of it.
 
7:28 PM
@FredOverflow pretty much everything. Just install the packages in the live environment... Duh!
 
You can only parallelize that by writing a different program.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't follow.
 
The compiler can't guess that you are okay with writing a different program. It's sole task is to compile the program you gave it, not some other program.
@rubenvb Each output from an RNG depends on the previous one. That can't be parallelised.
 
gcc --do-what-I-need --also-find-the-source-yourself
2
 
@LucDanton Needs those -f things.
 
7:31 PM
I'm going to go afk, but can someone give me an example of when you truly want a program that doesn't halt?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I never ever use them. Except for -fvisibility=hidden -fvisibility-inlines-hidden. And -flto.
 
@StackedCrooked Oh, Linux Mint Debian 201204 RC (MATE/Cinnamon & Xfce) released!
 
@GManNickG To keep some magical island in the Pacific from blowing up.
 
@GManNickG I misunderstood the question
 
7:34 PM
@GManNickG You know it's gonna come from me: Stress Test :D
 
What is a program that doesn't halt? Never waits for mutex or signal?
 
@StackedCrooked I now think he means a program that is never intended to "complete"
 
@StackedCrooked ⊥
 
zzz
 
You got your T upside down.
Just FYI.
 
7:37 PM
@StackedCrooked ˙ǝɹǝɥʇ sɯǝןqoɹd ʎuɐ ǝǝs ʇ,uop ı ¿ʇɐɥʍ
 
Well..
Guess I'll watch some anime then :)
Until this place returns back to normal.
 
Great UI design - doesn't confront the user with too much information: http://t.co/8Gm6RymJ
 
@StackedCrooked "normal"
 
OK I guess.
It's just Adobe telling you that it's ok.
 
sbi
7:41 PM
@GManNickG A program that makes me money wouldn't need to halt, ever, IYAM.
 
@StackedCrooked So, it's bad design after all. You missed the little information they packed into it: it's a question.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes but 10^16 random numbers to generate can be parallellized. No one said they needed to be all from one engine
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Maybe it's a rhetorical question.
 
@rubenvb But no compiler can transform a program that takes 10^16 random numbers from one engine into one that takes them from different ones. No, not even if smart enough.
 
7:43 PM
You can't expect compilers to be magical.
 
"Adobe has nothing to say on the matter."
 
The fact that compilers can't change your program's semantics by automatically parallelising something can hardly serve to show that autoparallelisation is useless.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, the autoparallellization API/framework could have that builtin, couldn't it?
in a deterministic way
yet none do
 
@rubenvb But that is a decision that has to be made by design.
 
hmmm
work on 3D renderer, or work on Wide?
 
7:50 PM
Slack!
 
lol
I've been picking that option for the last couple of days and it's time to change
 
HI ALL
 
@DeadMG Roll a die.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Excellent suggestion.
 
Open source sdk for building VoIP and Video conference application ?
 
7:51 PM
as a quick aside, I've been wondering how code auto-formatters work
so far, I've been thinking like, as each grammatical construct is recognized, then insert formatting
 
I don't think I've ever found a question I was looking for with the SO search :(
 
Given an AST that shouldn't be that hard.
 
agree
I did something similar in Lua once that worked in such a fashion
 
@MooingDuck Neither did I. I always use Google.
 
Hah, I just made an operators::construct just so I can have uncurry(operators::construct<T> {}).
 
7:56 PM
And in fact it can be highly parallelisable.
 
I decided to add two new keywords to Wide which should help with my previous problems
declare and something along the lines of prologue
 
A few days ago Mystical linked a question from a guy who wanted to generate all UIDs and see if a file on a remote server had a file by that name, and wanted a faster way since his way was slow. I can't find the question now to see what came of it :(
 
although one thing I find irritating about the grammar is I have to load up Bison every time to find out whether or not my changes are good
 
@MooingDuck cant use your history?
 
7:58 PM
and I have to have Cygwin and stuff to use Bison
which makes me teh unhappies
 
@Mysticial Ha, as I expected. But is it not true I can say that you do expect it to halt, because you expect the OS to terminate your program at the very least when the OS is signaled to terminate?
 
@bamboon I spend too muhc time on SO to find it :(
 
@DeadMG isn't there a gnuwin32 bison?
 
@sbi Fair. :P
 
@rubenvb If you want one fifteen years old and can't do half of anything useful, then yes.
 
7:59 PM
ah lol
 
@MooingDuck do you use ff?
 
I'm guessing it won't build with MinGW GCC?
 
@bamboon chrome. Running a search on my history atm
 

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