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00:00 - 10:0010:00 - 00:00

00:00
Meh
@Aaron3468 Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
There are things you should never admit in public.
@Aaron3468 ...for extremely broad definitions of "works".
@Borgleader like liking esoteric languages?
@Darkrifts I dunno, about that. I like unlambda pretty well, AAMOF.
@Darkrifts If by esoteric you mean Perl, then yes :P
00:08
More evil than PHP
oh

oh no
why does this exist
> === compares values and type… except with objects, where === is only true if both operands are actually the same object! For objects, == compares both value (of every attribute) and type, which is what === does for every other type. What.
who tf designed this beast of a language. This is even worse designed than what garbage I make. I take it back. I prefer randomly tagging people in chicken nugget photos to PHP
00:25
There are some terrible things about PHP, but it... works. And there are a handful of good ideas that went into it, even though the execution of them was questionable. And like many poorly designed but popular languages, it slowly becomes not bad over time (even when a redesign might be better)
@Aaron3468 In fairness, PHP is getting better over time. Using a finely tuned extrapolation algorithm, we find that (assuming the current rate of improvement continues) by approximately 2137 CE it will approximately equal the quality of Fortran 66.
8
@JerryCoffin Are you sure it won't run into an ethical conundrum with NULL?
@Darkrifts It will, around 2073 CE. A patch will be written around 2103 CE. This will prompt a rant from Linus Torvalds III that "grandpa taught me how NULL should work, so fuck all you with these attempts at type-safety. Just fuck you!"
00:43
In the distant future, people are going to look back & say 'ancient people from 2016 ...'
I kind of recommend Hack, Facebook's abortion child from PHP.
But every language has the positive, and negatives.
But seriously, if I ever write a language, it's going to expect you to either throw a proper NotInitialized/DoesNotExist/NotYetAvailable Exception, or that you initialize with a predictable default/empty value and mutate it once the information is available. Chasing Nulls is not a fun task
On the other hand, if I ever write a language, may god have mercy on my soul and save those who use it
4
@Aaron3468 Defining and implementing a language is a rite of passage--you're not a real programmer until you do it at least once.
Chances of anybody (including you) ever using it (beyond testing to verify that it works) are minimal, but doing it is valuable nonetheless.
00:58
@JerryCoffin That's a sensible perspective. I've done more than a few interpreters, but none for my own languages
@Aaron3468 This is one of those times I'm not sure whether I'm really joking or not. I find it a bit humorous, and when I say it I'm not particularly serious. At the same time, I'm not entirely convinced that it's incorrect either. Part of it is that looking back on things, language translation was where I see myself as having transitioned from "messing around" to doing more systematic programming.
not sure what you mean with more systematic programming
more attention to data structures and algorithms?
Well, I have 3 for myself :P
All bad
It all started from a 3D graphics program in Applesoft. It required you to edit the function you were going to graph into the program itself. I didn't approve of that idea, so I started figuring out how to enter that function separately. It took a long time before I had (what I thought of as) a satisfactory solution to that.
@StackedCrooked I'm thinking at a little larger level than that. In early classes and such we'd implemented sorting and trees and such, but never put together much of a system from them. A sorting program would ask you to enter some numbers, and it'd print them back out in order--but it wasn't really useful for much (especially on systems that didn't support I/O redirection, piping, etc.)
The first translator was the first time I had to put together an actual system with a fair number of "moving parts" that actually worked together to accomplish a bigger task.
@JerryCoffin ah, that does feel kinda like "messing around". reminds me of the pascal exercises I did in high school
01:11
@JerryCoffin I think you've hit on a fine point. As a programmer, I grow most when I take on difficult problems and solve them my own way. Pathfinding algorithms and 2D rendering have been my own major areas of study, along with emulation. Reinventing the wheel is by far one of the best ways to learn; programming is a problem-solving discipline and mastering more problems is an excellent strategy.
@JerryCoffin i see
This is how I feel about PHP now
01:27
finally cleanup on my code then it's ready for shipping (to /dev/null possibly, though not likely)
01:39
@StackedCrooked I think there's a little more to it than just "this was the first larger project I personally undertook" though. Language recognition is also a place you come face to face with some things that initially seem entirely different (e.g., regular expressions and finite state machines) actually being precisely equivalent (and the same applying to a lot of problems about things like computability in general, not just one pair of things that happen to work out the same).
@Borgleader :D
01:59
that fluffy feeling you get inside when your pet look at you then 'talk' softly while looking at you
you will be like: "I hear you, but I am not sure I 100% understand you"
 
1 hour later…
03:02
@LucDanton ah yes I remember my question now
Something about aliasing
03:14
So, what do you think. Is the footnote too much?
1
A: Terse umbrella concept for data validation and standardization?

Jerry CoffinI would use parse1. Technically, parsing only requires recognizing that an input matches some particular grammar--that is, the qualification part you've mentioned. That's almost always accompanied by transforming input that allows an (often large) number of variations, and transforming it into ...

Just couldn't resist!
@AndreasPapadopoulos glad to hear
Please contain your excitement
my washing machine overflowed, I am dripping with excitement
@JerryCoffin of course you would make a footnote like that
03:29
@jaggedSpire It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
also, nice answer
"There's this thing you may have heard of. It's called parsing"
The only other thing I might add is that the next step can optionally be called translation (compiling/assembling/linking), if the steps are to be disambiguated. The answer you've given is pretty much my understanding of the issue.
@LucDanton I'll try to provide some much needed relief then. In C++, if I understand well (yes this is probably where the premise fails), aliasing rules say you can reinterpret _cast anything to char* but not the other way around. Given that, is it truly impossible to have a pedantically-correct implementation of a 0-copy mechanism that reinterprets a char* buffer in memory, provided by an external source (mmap, socket...)? Assuming correct alignment etc.
Typing on phone is impossible jfc
@AndreasPapadopoulos no that’s easily fine
trivially copyable types are exactly about those types
writes bytes, get value
(in this case the write is whichever way you had those bytes)
admittedly there’s a leap of faith where you have to say out loud 'yes this place in memory was totally intended as an object of type whatever from the start'
but as long as you throw some salt over your shoulder while crossing yourself you should be fine
Will pepper do
03:42
is it white pepper
Are you racist
@Aaron3468 Yeah, but I don't get the impression that he's at all interested in anything beyond reading and doing a tiny bit of normalization.
Tough call there. On one hand, he seems to have the heft here to care, but on the other hand the questions seems pretty trivial.
@Borgleader I hate myself that I chuckled. :<
03:57
@LucDanton either way, thanks for the peace of mind :)
04:43
@ThePhD one of us
 
1 hour later…
05:46
random topic: I had no idea there are extensions like .cc or .cxx in c++. it blew my mind
Xeo
Xeo
or .c++
@sami1592 or literally any extension you desire. Could be main.seeplusplus for all the compiler cares
but why though? I do understand why .h and .hpp exists. But for others it's not that clear.
@MooingDuck That was my next question
@sami1592 compiler doesn't care about any extensions. Note the fact that most standard headers dont have any extensions
@sami1592 possibly related: Linux doesn't care about extensions at all
@MooingDuck I doubt that’s an accurate or useful thing to say
05:53
"most standard headers"- such as?
@sami1592 vector, string, iostream, etc etc etc
@LucDanton not entirely accurate no
@MooingDuck what is an extension for you?
1
Q: File extensions and association with programs in linux

CratylusIn windows we can associate a file's extension with programs. E.g. a file test.pl can be run by the installed Perl interpreter due to the pl extension. In linux though it needs #!/usr/bin/perl as the first line. Is this because there is no association between file extensions and programs in Linux?

"In general Unix doesn't rely on the suffix of files. Many programs neither needs nor automatically adds their typical suffixes" "Instead the file is identified by it's content through a series of tests, looking for "magic-numbers" and other identifiers "
@MooingDuck all this holds for linux, yes, but windows is not that way at all, so if you are coding for another platform, is necessary to use extensions
also, compilers do care about file extensions, even on linux
when linking a library from the command line you have too options
either use -l or -lib
again, I doubt that’s true or useful—all the programs I’ve ever used let me point to the files of my choice, then it works or not. whether that involves magic numbers or not is a red herring, too
06:02
-lxxx will look for libxxx.so
while -libxxx will look for libxxx.a
the files have the same name, which is convenient, and the only thing that changes is the extension, and in fact, g++ as an example cares about this
because .so files are dynamically linked libraries while .a files are static libraries
and that's important
@ChemiCalChems taking your claim at face value, how would I link to a library named 'iberty'?
@LucDanton damn
GNU libiberty is a software library with a collection of subroutines used by various GNU programs. It was originally intended to be a sort of standard cross-platform library, thus enabling it to be linked (using the usual Unix library form) by just saying "-liberty". The contents consisted of a variety of useful functions. However, the development of standards for C and POSIX took away some of the impetus for this, and libiberty came to be used primarily as a support library for the GNU toolchain. Copies of libiberty are distributed with gcc, gdb, and the binutils. One important piece of libiberty...
-liberty or -death
ADG
ADG
when i compile and run code on my laptop it works perfectly (ubuntu) but when i do that on my university desktop it enters an infinite loop while reading file (ubuntu). any possible causes?
difference is they have ubuntu 12.04 with g++4.6.3 and i use ubuntu 16.04 with g++5.1.0
@ADG SSCCE pls
@LucDanton only -liberty actually, look at the wikipedia article
ADG
ADG
06:07
@ChemiCalChems this one
@ChemiCalChems well it’s an either/or really
@LucDanton that's an extreme example though
@ADG SSCCE
i don't want your whole program
i want the part that fails
ADG
ADG
@ChemiCalChems ok wait
> either taking the money without providing the books that had been paid for or vice versa
well… sending free books is fairly harmless isn’t it?
@LucDanton the fuck wits... using words they don't understand to sound better
06:12
yes who even does that
what a bunch of malaproprisms
@LucDanton ok google
Omg MooingDuck is alive the end times are upon us
06:33
not sure how that's related ...
06:58
I'm not sure I entirely like the unix philosophy of having no suffix. At very least a standard file header should be expected to indicate the ballpark of how to interpret the file (aka, a file suffix)
ADG
ADG
@ChemiCalChems pastebin.com/3ndDaR2u
g++ problem :(
rendering audio on your graphics card: rawgit.com/orlp/e11162381bad5fef5be6e5d0114dac5c/raw/…
9
ADG
ADG
(y)
2 messages moved to bin
giant images really not required
Xeo
Xeo
Anyone here played We Happy Few yet?
07:13
no
Xeo
Xeo
I'm tempted, since the theme looks really nice, but according to videos and reviews, the gameplay is increadibly repetetive at the moment
I dont understand the trailor
(i have no sound)
07:47
Some wanna help me figure out why g++ doesn't see my headers?
Because you forgot to add them to your include path
hmmmm
1 message moved to bin
Ven
Ven
@Xeo don't buy it until they're done with the underworld scenario
Xeo
Xeo
Sounds interesting. I haven't looked into the game too deeply so far.
07:59
@Xeo Just looked it up. I remember it now. Honestly, it has good concepts, but Early Access is terrible just about every time. The design is pretty fantastic, but I'd prefer to wait until I know what direction the dev team is headed.
Xeo
Xeo
I've had luck with the few EA games I tried
Speedrunners, Starbound, Factorio
And especially early access procedural survival horrors with crafting on steam should not be overhyped
Ven
Ven
08:16
@Xeo it has this bioshock infinite feel to it
@orlp nice
so, where do I learn R?
Ven
Ven
r-tutor
jk, no idea.
@Xeo Starbound is shite now.
they took Beta, removed all the fun parts, then called it 1.0
Ven
Ven
08:35
wow @Shoe selling out
6
A: Why returning of vector by value of explicitly non-moveable and implicitly non-copyable type does NOT produce a compilation error?

ShoeLet alone RVO, a vector is movable independently from the element type's characteristics.

:^)
TIL the quickest way to remove enthusiasm for a new project is obtaining a textbook so that you can learn it properly.
Ven
Ven
> 3 Answers
> Simple jQuery addClass not working
Ven
Ven
08:48
stop rushing to "Post". Finish writing your answer before submitting... — Ven just now
@Ven ikr
it feels so good
Ven
Ven
how's you doin'?
good, what about you?
Ven
Ven
fighting redis. good otherwise
you are not on discord anymore?
08:56
@Xeo now I know what EA Games took their name from
holy mother
bartek
it has been a long time
how have you been
p okay
got back home
started work this week again
I'm doing cool things now
apparently our team is called Innovation Lab or someshit
again?
@BartekBanachewicz That's nice for a change :)
Ven
Ven
@Shoe I've always been on both discord and snackchat
I never "picked a side". Nor do I plan to
08:58
holidays or...?
@Shoe well I was on vacation
oh ok
right after I got back from Austria
@Aaron3468 strongly disagree (although "textbook" kinda implies "bad book", so don't do that)
didn't do much then, just slacked off, got ill for a while
08:59
austria is nice
also
yesterday, by Bartek Banachewicz
started the motorbike course today
why does it say "yesterday"
we've heard
it was two days ago
@Griwes I'm super excited
security course?
driving course
09:00
@orlp missing d-sharps
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz have you seen the announced sc2 patch then?
DTs will be able to blink (just like stalkers)
I've also disassembled my machine yesterday trying to fix the turning signals
also I need to find a bank that has interest rates similar-ish to my current bank's
but it looks pretty damn hopeless, I'm considering rewiring the whole installation
@Ven not yet
@Ven good for you
09:01
@Griwes which is how much
because my current bank is making it impossible for me to use my debit card effectively :/
Ven
Ven
@Shoe yes
@Ven sounds cool
@BartekBanachewicz I'm just whining, not asking for suggestions, at least for now. :P
interests rates on accounts hardly matter anyway
09:02
cyclones and tanks getting major buffs
you shouldn't be keeping bulk of your money on accounts
btw @Puppy are we still in Master
or did it drop us
well I obviously haven't been playing without you
aww
I was kinda busy on the evenings lately
that or tired
@BartekBanachewicz I tend to only keep a bunch of money on the regular account.
09:04
Might start keeping even less now that I've finally got myself a credit card.
Ven
Ven
fuck you
1 message moved to bin
lol
did you click
@Griwes CCs are nice until you have to pay them off
@BartekBanachewicz CCs are nice because the money you paid still generates interest on the saving account.
Ven
Ven
Hey, don't bin friday when it's friday!
09:09
@Griwes eh, for two months, which is pretty much negligible
unless you do that over and over ofc
but then again short-term deposits have better rates than accounts
@BartekBanachewicz Hey, it's better than nothing.
@BartekBanachewicz Too much trouble.
@Griwes some of them are autorenewable
@Griwes but you're likely to change your spending habits
simply saving more could be more effective
meh
I'm currently "saving" for very specific things I'm getting myself this year.
So... vOv
I should have a t460p in 2-3 weeks.
Then I'm going to get myself a DSLR camera.
i have a t420
@Griwes oh, I got to play with my friend's X1 last week
it's pretty nice
(the newest one)
Ven
Ven
09:20
@Griwes you don't need something that good for dick pics
t460p is heavy af
"starting from 1.8kg"
@BartekBanachewicz t460*p*
:P
this is skewed
@Griwes yeah that one
Ven
Ven
@Griwes kinda buttiful actually
@Griwes looks skewed
09:23
@BartekBanachewicz explain
@BartekBanachewicz WQHD w/ i7 6820HQ though. <3
@Griwes yes I also saw a 6kg laptop with a desktop 980 lately
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, I know that absurdity exists. :P
amazing that when you put more things in you can put more things in
@Griwes do I need to explain the word "skewed"
@BartekBanachewicz yes
> skewed {przym.} (też: wonky, cockeyed, lopsided, skew)
przekrzywiony {przym. m.}
09:26
So you mean that the horizon is not perfectly horizontal?
Maybe by 5 degrees. vOv
That's what you get when you shoot photos while holding the thing in hand at 200mm and don't care enough about it when editing the photos afterwards.
that was edited?
I mean I am not a photographer but the bottom is underexposed, the colors are bland and it's skewed
I think I needed to fix the white balance somewhat.
also the cars at the bottom are weirdly cropped
I am not sure if they are an intended part of the picture or not
09:30
I don't believe that one has been cropped.
Ven
Ven
1
Q: Boost Fusion: convert adapted struct type to text

John ZwinckGiven a struct like this: struct Foo { int x; int y; double z; }; BOOST_FUSION_ADAPT_STRUCT(Foo, x, y, z); I want to generate a string like this: "{ int x; int y; double z; }" I have seen how to print the values of a Fusion adapted struct, but here I need to print the ty...

ouch.
@BartekBanachewicz The bottom is fine even if slightly underexposed (though I don't think it actually is underexposed, maybe except for one or two areas); it's been taken at like 6:30pm in late September, at 200mm of a 18-200mm lens, at f/5.6. So... I think it's pretty good.
> UnDecorateSymbolName
is this seriously how it's spelled
Ven
Ven
no. should be Undecorate if anything.
@Griwes here's my take on it
but then again treat it as a personal opinion, not pro advice (or any advice for that matter) :P
@BartekBanachewicz Frankly, I dislike the lack of cars. :P
I might fix the skew on the original one. Dunno.
09:36
I also fixed the histogram and curves a bit
I still have some photos that have not been processed at all, from Oulu...
I'm having a bit of a laugh at Ogre's Platform and API Features
@Griwes IMHO they were never really there
Because it seems that it's exactly the opposite of my experiences
0
Q: How to build a working copy of Ogre3D 2.1 for CodeLite using the MinGW compiler on Windows 10 32-bit

Aaron3468For the past few days, I've been working through a problem building Ogre3D. The platform I am compiling on supports Opengl Embedded Systems 2 natively, but these headers do not appear to be a part of the dependencies package for Ogre. Solved Problems Cmake's CodeLite Generator has a Kn...

Also you made the lanterns less dark!
09:38
oh yeah, my bad
Ven
Ven
> Stack Overflow is currently offline for maintenance
the bell toll
yeah I spent a total of like 5 minutes, should've paid attention to that
the easiest way would be to mask them out and process selectively
To put it simply, they support any build system, provided it's the one they are developing it on. *or whichever ones you can hack it to work with
in my defense I used Paint.NET not Photoshop
I might try to do some work on the original raw image.
09:39
that always works better
Though recently I have too many things I want to do either way, and at the same time absolutely no energy for it. :D
you have more data to work with
@Ven It's back up \o/
woop, someone doing an ecodriving test on a 650cc motorbike got to 2.31l/100km
I wonder what would be the lowest I could get down to
I don't think under 1l/100km' is doable
driving a meatbag death machine is already pretty damn low
Ven
Ven
09:44
oh puppy spitting on cars
I think he meant motorbikes
Ven
Ven
ah, right, you're more of the bike type
um
well it kinda applies to both, but motorbikes just seem like taking a bad thing and then just making it worse for no apparent reason
@BartekBanachewicz How fast does it need to go? A smaller engine would be way more efficient if you don't need the power.
@Aaron3468 the test was in mixed conditions up to 90kph
but frankly, the smaller engines aren't that great
like my bike usually uses about 1.75-2l
of course a bigger engine will be heavier but it can spin slower
09:50
Oh wow, and according to a list of fuel efficient motorcycles, 3.6l is efficient...
sure it is
fast sportbikes go over 10 in aggresive driving
which isn't that weird; you should be thinking in terms of Wh / l, not km / l
True. The closer you get to precise descriptions (energy), the further you get from familiar and intuitive concepts (distance)
fucking hell
Not many C++17 language features announced for GCC 7 so far, but there are already tons of library features.
Ven
Ven
hi @Morwenn :3
09:55
Did GCC change their version number system?
Ven
Ven
yeah they're chrome now
The kinda quickly jumped from 5 to 6.
@Ven How are you? :)
@StackedCrooked They did after version 5.
Ven
Ven
09:56
(not)
@Morwenn fighting with redis! you?
Well, after version 4 actually.
@Ven Testing stuff. Opening hundreds of products.
I don't think it's a bad thing. It was silly to stay 10+ years in 4.x.
Ven
Ven
it's christmas!
@Morwenn Oooh, constexpr lambdas.
My variant is happy.
Ven
Ven
your bug finally got fixed... maybe :)
09:59
Still no guaranteed copy elision, at least according to the C++ status page...
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