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9:00 AM
@jalf true, but call me a noob , that's not really that much of an issue for me at this point !
 
@LucDanton how do you now any documentation is reliable, how do I know you are etc. etc. etc.
 
@angryInsomniac It's hard to tell. Depends on your requirements, and really your implementor/vendor.
 
@LucDanton requirements at this point is just making a working system , doesn't matter how :P
 
@angryInsomniac a lot of companies seem to have an aversion to using a libraries
 
@angryInsomniac say you want to post some code on SO to ask for help with it. The fewer libraries it depends on, the easier it is for us to compile, and the easier we can look at it and help you
 
9:01 AM
@thecoshman If only my company asked me to code in C++ :D I am relegated to Java at work !
 
@angryInsomniac me to :(
 
@jalf Hmm :) ok , shall keep that in mind
 
@angryInsomniac it also makes it easier for you to get your self set up and to share your code
 
@thecoshman You missed the point entirely. You recommended that site because (presumably) you're familiar with it. I don't because I'm not. I can recommend the Boost documentation for Boost features because I am familiar with both. I do not know of any worthwhile resources for the Standard library; so I won't recommend any.
 
@thecoshman thats why I'm planning to run away soon :P I cant take it any more
 
9:03 AM
@LucDanton first Google result, good enough for most people
@angryInsomniac lol, me too, but it's not Java's fault
 
@angryInsomniac Then there's no obvious answer. If it doesn't matter how, then pick either and try?
 
in fact, I am surprised they are using something as easy as Java. Wouldn't be too surprised if they used VB or somethin... maybe even AS
 
@thecoshman In my case its the inane tasks that they ask me to do :D and supposed superiors who count up from 11 by starting at 0 and using an if num > 10 condition in a for loop :P
 
@thecoshman Why try giving an answer to 'most people' when you need to answer one person?
 
@angryInsomniac yeah I saw that :P
 
9:05 AM
@LucDanton That's what I thought , I think I'll stick to boost for now , much better documented in my opinion
@thecoshman Infuriating :D
 
@LucDanton (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
Come to think of it I do know in fact of one resource that is okay-ish for C++ and that's SO.
 
@LucDanton I would tend to agree !
 
9:24 AM
Wow ! that certainly killed the conversation :D
 
9:36 AM
me think I shall give up stop wasting time with my own engine and use what looks to be rather good, cafu
@sbi how was the journey home?
 
9:50 AM
@thecoshman did you consider irrlicht ?
 
not really looked into that many engines
I give them a basic look, but keep getting put of by having to learn how do things there way
but I know that is a foolish attitude
 
@thecoshman I would recommend that for 3D graphics , primarily because it is well documented has a good community and is quite easy to use :P
even my idiotic 16 year old self who didnt know squat figured out how to use it :P
 
@thecoshman the other option is to just hack together the code you need, without worrying about making it an "engine" or without making it reusable :)
 
well, that's reassuring
@jalf that's sort of what I've been doing
 
no, you've been making a reusable engine ;)
 
9:54 AM
well, yeah :P
 
we had a pretty long discussion about that a few days ago, remember? ;)
that's what I'm saying. You could just drop all pretenses of reusability, and just make your game, and hack together the functionality you need for it
 
I think I make it sound more planned then it really is
 
Anyway, the only standalone engine I've ever heard of which actually seemed usable is Unity3d
 
I need to get my self sorted out for development though
 
Ogre and Irrlicht and all the others have been in development for what, a decade or something, and still no one actually uses them to make anything resembling a game
 
9:55 AM
the only real work I have done on it was when I was sat around bored shitless at work when I first started
 
@jalf true ! but afaik irr has come pretty far , nowhere near unity though
 
Blender has a 3D game engine, not sure how good it is.
 
@angryInsomniac far enough to be used?
 
whilst I have had re-usability in mind, I have to be honest and say, I don't even have enough of what can be called usable yet
 
@jalf In simple games, sure , but I agree anything that needs to have high production values is better off using something else
 
9:58 AM
@rubenvb from my understanding, it is very basic, but does make use of bullet, so it looks very fancy
 
They're the perfect example of what I said the other day about @thecoshman's engine: you spend ages developing something reusable, but because you're trying to make an engine rather than a game, it's "reusable" without the "usable"
@angryInsomniac got a link to one?
 
@jalf it's mostly just because I have done so little
 
@thecoshman yeah, that wasn't a dig at you at all. Don't worry :)
 
for instance, I have wrapped shaders and vertex/index buffers, but still need to sort out other stuff before I can really see what they look like
@jalf didn't take it as such :)
 
I'm just saying that if you continued on that route for another decade or two, then you'd end up in the position Irrlicht is in today: a shit-ton of functionality that isn't really usable because it was never designed for a game
 
10:01 AM
I think it would take more then a decade or two at this rate :P
 
I do have a game idea I want to make, but I need to do a bit more 'engine' things before the game can really be started
for instance, need to sort out getting models on screen
once I can do that, I can start working on basic game logic for the models
 
@angryInsomniac ok, so a couple of actual games have been made :)
 
it's kind of hard to see how your AI or physics works with out models to test it on :D
 
@thecoshman but don't think of that as "engine" functionality. It's part of your game, not the engine
fill a vertex buffer with 4 hardcoded triangles forming a pyramid or something. Then write a simple render function to draw it without fancy shaders or anything
 
10:04 AM
@jalf I say 'engine' to mean, the parts that are not what make the game MY game. loading a model and rendering it is generic thing that every game does
 
@jalf there are quite a few , I'm at office so I cant really search around a lot :P and then there are two of my projects , very simple games , one is a top down shooter like Naac and one is a 3D soccer free kick simulator
 
yeah, slowly working on that :P
 
once you have that, it's just a matter of writing a function to load more complex models into the vertex buffer instead of your hardcoded data
 
the main problem right now, is I don't know if I want to keep it in Java or port (back) to C++
 
but yeah , the quality of achievable graphics is shit compared to what unity can do
 
10:05 AM
@thecoshman yeah, but my point is that the terminology matters. It takes on a very different flavor when it's a part of your game, rather than some separate monolithic blob of technology
 
considering I am (in theory) a Java developer
 
If it's part of your game, then you can easily define clear goals, and you can immediately evaluate whether it's good enough. when it's part of an "engine", what requirements does it need to satisfy? How do you determine when it's good enough? How powerful it needs to be?
 
@jalf I see what you are saying. I guess it is a bit an OCD thing, thinking of all possible uses rather then just the one I want it for
 
@thecoshman pick a third language then! Write it in Ruby! ;)
@thecoshman yeah, I keep falling into the same trap too. :)
 
@jalf oh you :P
though I think I am perfectly just (so probably a fool to do this) in trying to place sections of code in neat areas, such as 'graphics' and then 'graphics.shaders' etc.
 
10:08 AM
@jalf I've never used them , but cant we use things like udk for free if its a not for profit situation :P
I doubt you'll need anything more comprehensive than that :)
 
@angryInsomniac IIRC UDK is 'free' to use until you make 50k (in US$ I think)
 
@thecoshman sure, but maybe it shouldn't start its life there. Maybe it should just start its life in a small single-file 'prototype' component?
one which throws a few triangles onto the screen and not much else. Then as it grows, it can be split up and reorganized
 
@thecoshman really ? thats mighty generous of them :P but I have no idea what using it entails , is it even a c++ library or its own language ?
 
it's both, afaik. A bunch of C++ libs and their own proprietary scripting language
but I haven't looked too closely at it
 
@jalf hmm , neither have I , figured I should learn to walk before I try to fly
 
10:12 AM
@jalf I think you are right there
 
Arrrgh Qt ! I hate the examples so much ! :@
 
@jalf perhaps, but I need to put it some where, and it make sense to me, it is a graphical component. oh look, there are a few shader related classes, letts package them together
 
but afaik, UDK is much more geared for big commercial AAA games than for hobbyist stuff. Steeper learning curve, more complexity and requires much more effort to get going
@thecoshman sure, I'm just suggesting things that might make it easier to get started
 
@jalf certainly looks it :P
@jalf what I really need to do, is just spend some good time working on it, which I haven't really since before christmas
a combination of things that really do need to be done, and making up excuses
 
@jalf In any case , using things like udk at the outset will shield you from the details of things like directx which is I guess a no no if one is to really delve into game development
 
10:16 AM
@thecoshman yeah, but that can become a lot more manageable if you redefine what it is you're working on, or what the goal is
 
@angryInsomniac it depends. you don't need to know how to build a car from scratch to be racing driver
 
and hacking together a small DirectX prototype is a lot more manageable than writing a graphics library, however small :)
 
@jalf true. it did mostly start as a time filler
 
@thecoshman possibly , but the problem is , in this case the car changes very frequently :P
 
@angryInsomniac indeed it does, but racing cars has been the same basic task as it always has been
 
10:19 AM
@thecoshman :P I dont think the metaphor applies :) but , to each their own
 
@angryInsomniac well, it does. all though the technology you make use of may change, the task of game development is the same
 
@thecoshman the problem is , working in any game dev studio , if you go high enough up the food chain at some point you would want to design a new engine, thats when knowledge of the underlying architecture will be essential
 
indeed it is
but that is one big questions. do you give some one a powerful tool, and slowly teach them how it works or instead teach them the individual components and slowly tie them together.
do you teach from the bottom up or top down
 
@thecoshman I would argue that bottom up would allow for a better grasp and appreciation for the work being done, as long as you dont set the bottom at the microchip level :P
 
@angryInsomniac I would be inclined to agree, but at the same time, how many people need to invent the wheel before we start making carts?
 
10:25 AM
@thecoshman The problem is not re-inventing the wheel , the problem is designing better versions of the cart and woodwork is an essential skill to do either :D
 
if you can take things as a given, you can build off them. you can build bigger and better things
 
Yay metaphor :D
@thecoshman how often does Dx change , or the underlying graphics card , Nvidia is creating cuda and marketing it as a way to optimize their cards !
 
@angryInsomniac and some clever clogs came along with openCL, so you can take advantage of that technology with out caring about how exactly it works
 
@thecoshman which does not work :D
@thecoshman still , the clever clogs as you call them , had a thorough understanding of the underlying architecture :P
 
with something as a complex and multifaceted as games, you will have to look at small areas to improve at a time. so take physics, you would look at that and think "it can't handle that many points, lets look at sorting it out" and then you look at how it currently works, and how other people have done it and what not
of course, there is always going to be a blurring betweens levels of abstraction
 
10:31 AM
@thecoshman argh , the endless debates :) got to read , as I said before, its a matter of perspective , to each their own
 
to make openCL you need to know how CUDA and AMD's do dad works. but to use openCL, you just need to know how openCL works.
@angryInsomniac indeed :D
it would only be when you start to find limitations in openCL that you might start to look into how it works and how you might improve it
 
lol, I just found a premature_finish_exception. I wonder who caught it. :D
 
Anyone here have experience with Qt ?
@IntermediateHacker lolz
 
nah, never used Qt... is it free?
 
I've used Qt, but given it up. I hate it. :(
 
10:35 AM
@thecoshman yup , gui lib initially developed by trolltech , bought by nokia
 
lol, trolltech
yeah, I some how got the impression you had to pay for it
 
@IntermediateHacker have you ever used the Graphics view framework ? I have a very basic question
 
I made use of SDL
 
@thecoshman the website is very overwhelming
and it has a 1.3 gig download for a freaking library
 
does it come with a load of shit you don't really need?
 
10:37 AM
@thecoshman LOAD of SHIT
typical nokia .. trolled trolltech
 
@angryInsomniac I don't get you... is there some sort of hidden meaning?
 
@thecoshman I have developed an issue with how Nokia does things and I remember Qt used to be lightweight and easy to use , then they bought it and added all kinds of shit like support for symbian ! and then proceeded to promptly give up on symbian and adopt windows mobile
 
I see
اردو بولنے کا رواج ختم ھوتا جا رہا ہے۔ :(
can you translate please :P
though I think the r->l has been lost :P
 
according to google translate : Bvlnے popular Urdu Ka terminated ھVta RہA ہے here. :D
 
@angryInsomniac so it is just scribbles :P
@IntermediateHacker can you translate for us please
 
10:46 AM
^ "Why I left Google" by Microsoft's James Whittaker
Comments?
 
> answering individually isn’t scaling
lol
from what I read, seems like someone who held onto there principles
what are your comments @CheersandhthAlf
yeah... me thinks I shall return to the glory of C++
hopefully, I can relearn what I need know for basic SDL/openGL quick enough
 
@thecoshman I did sign up for Google+ in beta. It did not take long for them to come up with annoying games (like Facebook) and worse, force-fed "what's new on google+" news. It can't be turned off, so I generally report each such bunch of articles as nudity or spam. It's not like the old Google. But then, coming from Usenet, I know that Google has never been completely Google-like in all departments.
 
I do like G+ though. Sure it has games, but they seem to keep out of my way for the most part. to be honest though, I am not a huge social network user
my use of facebook is more or less just having my tweets auto posted to my 'wall'
or looking at links people INSIST on sending me through facebook
 
@IntermediateHacker google +"premature_finish_exception": 0 hits
 
11:07 AM
What do I do if I know a dynamic library (.so) is there but when trying to load it, dlopen fails, claiming "no such file or directory"?
 
check to make sure you are loading the right .so
 
@thecoshman: I set the PATH so that the first to look is where the .so sits.
I'm even running the executable inside the directory where the .so is.
Maybe I should make an actual SO question out of it, but it feels too vague.
 
so you have ./myApp ./myApps.so and you have code that is trying to load ./myApss.so
it wouldn't hurt, just make sure you detail exactly your folder structure and the code are suing to load the .so and the exact error you are getting
 
Pretty much, except that there is an extra symlink involved
 
@bitmask that could complicate things
have tried doing it with out the symlink
just to rule it out
 
11:12 AM
It's in the same directory though
 
what is?
 
Anyway, I just wanted to check I'm not overlooking something extremely obvious.
the symlink
 
oh, you have a symlink in the same folder to a .so that is some where else
 
No, that's the thing, the link and the actual .so are in the same folder
and other libraries in the same folder are loaded
 
woah!!! why do you have a symlink to a file in the same folder as the symlink?
 
11:15 AM
I didn't create it.
 
so you have ./real.so and a symlink ./fake.so
 
It's a program I'm modifying and they seemed to like to habe libfoo.so and libfoo.so.3 and libfoo.so.13
 
wtf
I feel sorry for you man
 
Did I mention extreme time pressure (Deadline is tomorrow, and NOTHING works)
?
 
so do you know which line of code is failing
 
11:17 AM
Pretty sure it's a recursive call to dlopen (I'm loading a .so that in turn loads the mentioned .so that seems to be missing)
only that it's not missing
waaah :/
 
!آپ سب کو سلام
lol.
 
@IntermediateHacker: I don't get the part before "lol"
 
can see what the exact path the is trying to be loaded
 
@bitmask obviously, only about 140 million people in the world know the language.
 
nope
 
11:20 AM
@bitmask Check dependencies with ldd?
 
hm, let's see
 
@thecoshman Translation: "Almost no one is familiar with Urdu nowadays. Its popularity is declining."
 
Although I think dlopen (and the loader) are supposed to deal with that, to an extent anyway. And I don't think you'd end up with 'no such file or directory'.
 
@IntermediateHacker o_0 ok then :P
 
ldd also claims "not found"
this is getting more strange ...
 
11:23 AM
ls -l check that the symlink is valid.
 
though, now thinking, I can get away with seriously colourful er.. phrases etc. If I write them in Urdu. I doubt there's a Pakistani / Iranian / Indian mod on SO.
 
that was the first thing I did (also my shell colours it differently even if only ls it)
 
I suppose ldd & friends do work on things completely unrelated to your project?
 
why shouldn't they
 
!ماں چودوں
 
11:25 AM
@IntermediateHacker I don't think you need to worry
 
I like to make my assumptions explicit. If I have to assume that the system is in fact working, then it doesn't hurt to try.
 
btw. it's a ns3 hack
 
but the people over at casual chat understand it though.
 
@LucDanton: Could they maybe have a problem if there are minus signs in the path?
 
@bitmask I don't know. Easy to set up an experiment though.
 
11:28 AM
@bitmask AFAIK nix has no problem with a minus sign in file names/paths
 
@thecoshman: So do I, but I'm at the point where I suspect goblins in my file-system.
 
@bitmask like @luc said (sort of) just try it
 
there should be a "weird" tag ...
0
Q: Failure to load existing library

bitmaskI'm trying to explain a complex problem, so bear with me. Say I have these files /path/build/ /path/build/liba.so /path/build/liba.so.3 -> liba.so /path/build/libtest.so I even have set PATH=/path/build:... (where ... is my normal $PATH). At some point libtest.so will load liba.so.3 at ru...

@thecoshman: well, it doesn't seem to change anything if I move everything to /tmp/so
 
11:44 AM
@bitmask at least you know :D
two things, have you tried moving the second .so to / and secondly have you tried replacing it with a copy of the file, rather then just a symlink?
 
It's hard to tell if I provided enough information in the question, for instance I left out the minus sign thing, to keep it simple
no and no. trying ...
 
looks good enough for now
the question that is
 
... feel ... so ... stupid ...
Still I would have expected the loader to at least look in PATH, as well
 
don't know about *nix but in windows symbolic link to dll does not work
 
@bitmask lol
 
11:55 AM
@CheersandhthAlf: Nope, works like a charm (well, a charm is a bit much -- I worked two days to have "hello" printed ...)
 
@bitmask so in another two days it'll say "hello world"?
 
@jalf: A man can dream, right?!
 
:)
 
12:27 PM
You usually dynamically link with a linked .so on Linux at least.
That made so little sense.
For some reason Windows can't see my user environment variables.
 
I was just organizing my path stuff into different variables and having trouble when it tried to do recursive expansion
 
I used to not like FHS approach, but fuck, now I have PATHs with usually about ~40 entries or so.
It's ridiculous.
 
Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. Splitting apps into /bin, /share, etc.
 
oh, this is windows, but yes
cmake complained that my path entry was too long and it couldn't append
which I don't totally believe, but now path looks like %PATH_TOOLS%;%PATH_LANGS%;%PATH_WINDOWS%; etc etc
 
12:34 PM
I need to take time and combine those dirs into a big one with lots of links.
 
12:49 PM
damn, I've got like 2 friends on Google+. :(
why isn't anyone ready to join G+?
 
@IntermediateHacker: Why isn't anyone ready to leave G+ and Facebook?
 
@IntermediateHacker i think (1) because others are on facebook and (2) very annoying "what's new"
 
Is there a way to select which circles end up in your stream?
 
@IntermediateHacker There's precisely one reason why I use Facebook. My friends are there.
And so, I'll start using G+ the day my friends leave Facebook and start using G+
 
@CollinHockey the limit in xp was about 8k
iirc
 
12:54 PM
I don't care about social search or the number of games or anything else. I use it to talk to people I know, and I can't do that if the people aren't there
 
8012 or something, I looked it up a few minutes ago, nowhere near that
error was probably something different, but whatever, it's organized now
 
@CatPlusPlus and /sbin and /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin and a few other bins. Don't forget those
 
Re G+, found it, there's a non-descript little slider bar at the top when you go to a particular circle that controls how many stories from that circle show up in your stream
 
@CatPlusPlus Windows can't, or Visual Studio?
also which part of windows can't? You probably have to restart the process before it'll notice changes to your path
at least for cmd.exe :)
 
I had a nightmare last night. I dreamt I was reading C code. Still can't stop shivering... o_o
3
 
1:06 PM
@IntermediateHacker: There are things far worse than good ol' C code.
 
Bad C or good C?
 
@bitmask for example... ?
 
VHDL?
 
Ruby?
 
@bitmask AFAIK VHDL is a very specific language designed for a specific type of problem. used for what it is meant for, it is very good
 
1:09 PM
PHP?
 
Perl by most people who write Perl?
 
@CollinHockey I don't see how Ruby is worse than C.
 
Ruby is quite readable. It's nothing compared to C.
 
I think my main problem is I only know Ruby from RoR, and the book I used was so happy to tell me how easy it was to make websites they forgot to explain what was going on
 
Ruby on Rails is a piece of crap. Rails screwed up Google for Ruby programmers.
 
1:11 PM
"Type these incantations, it'll do stuff!"
 
@CollinHockey: That reminds me of the ns3 tutorial ...
 
C is plenty readable, I think it depends on the programmer much more than that
 
@CollinHockey ever read the SDL source code?
 
@IntermediateHacker oh, can't be pretty :P
 
@IntermediateHacker Why would I subject myself to that?
:-P
 
1:12 PM
Avoid any book that says "agile". I won't be focussed on the actual problem, but on how to solve it as fast as you can. That's useless.
 
avoid any book that says "rails"
 
Yeah, it was for a class I took in college "Web Database Systems" or something - it had previously used PHP
 
@CollinHockey: I could have told you that from the "cool skateboard" picture on the cover, before even reading one page.
 
Ah, my copy has a hammock by the beach on it
 
hey, where is @sbi today?
I've never seen him offline before.
 
1:17 PM
he is just travelling home don't forget
 
oh yeah. back from London.
 
he left yesterday, so I would have thought he be back by now though...
 
@IntermediateHacker he's been offline-ish for the past week, iyam
 
lol... offline-ish.
 
@daknok_t You, obviously, prefer to stick with the problem, rather than solving it?
 
1:20 PM
@sehe No, but I'd rather take a little longer to solve the problem and actually understand what's going on.
 
@sehe: It's a difference if you "just get it done" or if your learn something in the process.
 
@daknok_t none of those precludes the other. Also, that was a joke. Also, I understood your intent the first time :)
 
OK.
 
@daknok_t I prefer to stay away from 'fashion books' - the agile buzz word is usually a good indicator that good ideas are going to be over-emphasized :)
 
question concerning initializer_lists: assume I have a vector of ints, can I now create a vector which consists of that old vector + some new elements? something like std::vector<ing> new = { oldvec, 23, 234, 32434} ?
 
1:32 PM
perhaps with +?
 
user406009
Wasn't there an append function for std::vector?
 
@bitmask I try it.
 
22
Q: C++: Appending a vector to a vector

subAssuming I have 2 STL vectors: vector<int> a; vector<int> b; Let's also say the both have around 30 elements. How do I add the vector b to the end of vector a? The dirty way would be iterating through b and adding each element via push_back, though I wouldn't like to do that!

 
@bamboon: Nope + doesn't seem to be implemented.
 
well, I don't want to append in the classical style
though, I will probably have to do it that way
 
user406009
1:35 PM
std::vector<int> newvec(oldvec.begin(), oldvec.end());
newvec.insert(newvec.end(), {24,256,65};
 
perhaps you can use begin and end in your initialiser list
@EthanSteinberg: That is not non-mutating
 
That won't work, and initializer lists have a private constructor, so you're screwed.
You can create a wrapper function if you want to do it in one line.
 
yeah! I get three days of not learning about GWT
and then the week after four days of perl :D
 
@daknok_t yeah cool, thanks
 
1:42 PM
You should use std::begin and std::end instead of std::vector::begin and std::vector::end but Ideone doesn't support those yet.
 
noticed that too, 4.5.1 is quite old
 
user406009
Has ideone even enabled boost for C++0x yet? I would consider that a priority over going to gcc version 4.6
 
what's 'auto'?
 
It'll infer the type.
 
user406009
Auto has the same semantics as a template.
 
1:45 PM
E.g. if you do std::vector<int> a; auto b = a;, b will be of type std::vector<int>.
 
where did that come from
 
@EthanSteinberg as template parameter deduction, you mean. The same rules apply.
@thecoshman C++11.
 
oh right
looks rather nice :D
 
In C# you have var, I believe.
@thecoshman this might be a good read. :P
 
It is nice when you've got type names that are 15+ characters long.
 
1:47 PM
@daknok_t lol
 
user406009
Or overly redundant types, such as std::shared_ptr<longFooType> blah = std::make_shared<longFooType>();
 
1:59 PM
Range-based for-loop drool
 

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