« first day (1859 days earlier)      last day (3315 days later) » 

Ell
Ell
18:00
this discussion is fruitless is what I see so far
You argued that compound is synonym of complex and therefore bad, but complex means 'multiple connected parts' which is what database is
@milleniumbug and that's a problem?
so to produce an executable with a specific subsystem, and not everybody does that
You argued that flat is inherently better but large flat structure is somehow not better
what
18:01
@ScarletAmaranth not a problem, it's just the programmers who did this don't know or forgot to do it
I'm not claiming to fit everything into a single table
That's not what the relational model is about
@milleniumbug ah, thanks
But when you have multiple things you have a COMPLEX thing
Independently from the number of tuples in the relation
And what's the difference between your type Contact { books: [Book], emails: [Email] } and a database Whatever { table Books { } table Emails {} table Contacts {} table Contacts_Books {} table Contact_Emails {} } (where the database is supposedly the simpler and less complex one
18:02
@CatPlusPlus No, deep nested structure are more complex because they are more connected to the containing structure than independent tables "connected" by a foreign key attribute.
But that. does. not. follow.
Why
You give example of some simpler operations but probably just as many operations are actually more difficult to do in relational model
the resulting structure is not less complex to explain to a random human who happens to be passing by
@CatPlusPlus Then give an example of those
18:05
That's not really important, because it's still not related to actual conceptual complexity of the thing
(Removal for one)
@CatPlusPlus Book -> Client is clearly a 1:N relation
So if the relational model is not about being flat, why were you raving about it to start with?
Which is easily done by using a simple foreign key in books
Not by having an external relation
That's not normal form
hth
Why not
I wanna hear this one
18:07
Because you're duplicating book data?
Erm, no?
1 client has many books
1 books refers to only 1 client
Some normal forms add redundancy.
That's what 1:N means
It's also now more complex because the books know about clients and are no longer independent.
Wait, do you even know what normal form or relational model is?
18:08
@Jefery Nobody said otherwise
Something you tauted as a virtue
@CatPlusPlus So what data are you duplicating?
Do tell
Fine, define the tables fully
What tables?
Client(...) Book(ClientFK, ...)
Those are the tables
Yes the fields you're skipping are actually important
18:11
How?
Because considering normal forms considers all fields??????????
Client(A, B, C) Book(ClientFK, D, E, F)
There
They are irrelevant here
lol
So keep talking about 1:N relations as a response to NFs yep
18:12
Yeah, I'm laughing a lot too
Can't wait to hear you defend your earlier claim
So, where is the duplicated data again?
Still waiting
D, E, F possibly, depending on what it is
I.e. when you have a tuples (client = 1, a, b, c) (client = 2, a, b, c) then this is strong suspect for not being normalised
ISBN, date that it was published and whatever else you like
But since you know normalisation so well as to say the fields are irrelevant then I have no further questions
And there we go
Not normalised
@CatPlusPlus That has nothing to do with the relationship between books and clients
18:14
It's about the normalization of books and clients by themselves
I was going against your Contacts_Books table, which is not inherently needed in the schema proposed
You said relational is simpler because you don't have thousands of design choices because normal forms exist
Fun fact: I've been told during an interview that I had good communication skills.
And then you go and ignore normal forms
18:15
Independently on what the attributes of contacts and books
@Morwenn I am so proud of you
Ell
Ell
@Morwenn well dun
lol avoiding design choices by going relational
@CatPlusPlus Yes, I'm ignoring normal forms not relevant to the issue at hand
@nick Thanks, father.
18:16
Which is that the 1:N relationship between books and clients don't need an external table
how do you model inheritance? how do you model variants? how do you model trees? how do you
And by doing that you also created more difficulty in actually updating the book data
@Morwenn :)
@Ell Probably because I'm used to repeating the same thing over and over.
Or just querying the book data independently, because now you have multiple sources of truth
So how is that simpler
18:17
@milleniumbug Inheritance can be modeled in the relational model just fine
I didn't say it can't
I said it can in multiple ways
You asked how can you model inheritance
1 min ago, by milleniumbug
lol avoiding design choices by going relational
@CatPlusPlus Why on earth would be more difficult?
You can model inheritance by flattening the evil nested structure and get an equivalent flat structure OH WAIT
Ell
Ell
18:18
I actually like 100% normalised data
lol
Ell
Ell
it sits right with me
@Jefery Because you have to find every tuple that mentions the book you're updating and then update every single one of them?
Ell
Ell
not that I ever use databases
I just ate two slices of cheese and I'm not hungry anymore /o/
18:18
@Ell <3
@milleniumbug You still have to make design choices
@Ell It's conceptually the best but in practice sometimes fails.
They are just more restricted
we've denormalized to dodge performance problems in our database at work.
Yeah denormalisation is common optimisation thing
Plus there's a lot of NFs and they go crazy
18:19
@CatPlusPlus What?
I'm denormalized~~~~
@Jefery What what
I'm not sure what's confusing
@Morwenn :)
In practice that's handled by references ... on update cascade on delete cascade
No it's not
You don't have a foreign key to book
Plus ON UPDATE refers to primary keys not other attributes
18:20
Then what tuples do I have to find in order to update the book tuples again?
ho shit
Every single one that mentions the book you want to update
@CatPlusPlus Erm, no.
that VS local debugging thing could be a massive bonus for Wide.
Because for every client that has that book, you have a separate one with all of the fucking data
18:20
if I offer the LLDB/GDB style debug info, I can get VS debugging too?
on update can be used whenever you reference any attribute of another table
@Jefery With foreign keys
It doesn't have to be primary keys on both ends
Give me 10 minutes
BBL
It's typically primary key but yeah whatever it doesn't have to be
It's still not for every piece of data in that table
It's not relevant here
You still don't have a foreign key to book
Ell
Ell
@Puppy yes
it's really GDB style debug info though isn't it?
Doesn't LLDB just use GDB style?
DWARF2 IIRC
18:25
hi @MooingDuck :) :) :D
@Puppy No
VS doesn't use DWARF, it uses PDB
Though LLVM should be able to output PDB maybe?
@CatPlusPlus That's not what their new remote/local debugging with GDB thing suggests. Or maybe they just SSH the relevant commands to GDB.
@CatPlusPlus They're working on it
GDB has remote mode, so it doesn't need SSH
Dunno
hmm. does NaN screw you when sorting floats?
yes.
the builtin operators for nans are not SWO.
you can't sort a sequence of floats with a NAN in it.
18:31
I finally decided that it was time to understand how min-heaps and max-heaps worked. It was actually simpler than I thought. And it makes it easy to understand how heapsort works.
user406009
Although you could define a safe comparator for sorting floats if you wanted.
Next step: understanding smoothsort.
@Puppy strangely I can't seem to trigger MSVC's debug assertion for a faulty operator< with NaNs though.
@melak47 They default to std::less, which may have different guarantees.
[](float a, float b){ return reinterpret_cast<int&>(a) < reinterpret_cast<int&>(b); } :P
18:32
ah, hm.
strict aliasing violation
-fno-strict-aliasing (yeah, I know it's UB)
@CatPlusPlus Why not?
@CatPlusPlus You brought it up
@CatPlusPlus There's no need for a foreign key to book in the relationship book-client
18:34
Uhhhhhh
Book has the foreign key to client
user406009
@melak47 You could also just never use NaNs.
user406009
They suck.
Can you speak words?
user406009
Have error checks that mark when stuff is NaN.
18:35
Like anything other than "lol" and "ugh" or "uh+"?
For fuck's sake are you blind or just pretending or idk
Do tell
Consider tuples (client = 1, isbn = 1, title = book 1), (client = 2, isbn = 1, title = book 1)
Turns out the title needs to be updated
How do you do it
And how do you think ON UPDATE CASCADE will help
The duplicated data in title has nothing to do with the relationship book-client
Can you read?
18:36
1 min ago, by Jefery
@CatPlusPlus There's no need for a foreign key to book in the relationship book-client
jesus fucking christ
> in the relationship book-client
> in the relationship book-client
"Why updating book data is more difficult" "<reasons>" "IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELATIONSHIP BOOK-CLIENT"
Unfortunately I can't change the font size, so you'll have to wear glasses if you don't see it
@CatPlusPlus That's not how the conversation went
Strawman again
It's exactly how it went
You don't even fucking know what strawman means
Or how databases work
18:37
"You still don't have a foreign key to book" -- "You don't need it in the book-client relationship" -- "WHAT ABOUT THE TIRLTE"
That's how it went
I can copy and paste the whole conversation if you want
So that you can see it in its flat beauty
Do and maybe read it while you're at it
I'm done with this nonsense
16 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
You still don't have a foreign key to book
4 mins ago, by Jefery
@CatPlusPlus There's no need for a foreign key to book in the relationship book-client
3 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Consider tuples (client = 1, isbn = 1, title = book 1), (client = 2, isbn = 1, title = book 1)
Yes cherrypick the parts you like
3 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Turns out the title needs to be updated
It didn't start 16 minutes ago
18:39
3 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
How do you do it
@CatPlusPlus I had a 10 minutes break
Do I have to show you the message where I say that I have to take 10 minutes for something else?
Read the ENTIRE FUCKING THING
Or don't I no longer care bye
How about you show me what messages are relevant to your point?
I'm doing it, so why can't you?
I need some food
(maybe because there are no such messages)
I need sweet food
@CatPlusPlus I love it when you ragequit like that
It's the moment when you realize you have lost and the only possible way out is to say that you don't care.
Ell
Ell
Hmm I need to attach state to an GLUT window in haskell
18:44
Don't use GLUT
Still
She is so beautiful
nah
user406009
@Jefery No
That angelic face
Dat laugh
user406009
Can someone bin those hideous things?
user406009
18:47
It hurts to look.
lol
Oh she is from England. That's why she is charming.
England. Charming. Pick one.
6
puppy picks both
13 hours of log config, 1 annoying lounge.txt discussion, time for the other job ho boy
finally accunt unblocked
Ell
Ell
18:56
@CatPlusPlus it's an assignment
no choice
rip
If there's no arbitrary user data pointer anywhere then your only option is globals
user406009
Theoretically, I think Puppy pointed out that you can also sometimes use exceptions.

« first day (1859 days earlier)      last day (3315 days later) »