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22:00
really? Where were you before ?
@Ell ya, shinny all the way along ...
Ell
Ell
you know I knew someone who was talking to someone in the USA and they said "I can't quite place your accent, where are you from?" to which they replied "erm, England" and the man said "Ahh, england, which state is that in?"
@sbi The last one isn't.
Ell
Ell
seriously :S
22:00
The last one is from I, Robot, the movie piece of junk.
@sbi Meh, we've noticed it live.
@Ell that's painful, and I'm from USA :/
Ell
Ell
@MooingDuck haha yeah :)
sbi
sbi
@CatPlusPlus And I remembered that, so I wanted to caress your ego a bit by showing that others take days to find that out.
Nice joke, I have heard that you Englishmen make fantastic jokes about yourselves and the others. :)
Ell
Ell
22:02
@DzekTrek are you talking to me? :L if so, I wasn't joking!
sbi
sbi
In other news, one of my ex-wifes just called me, hysterically drenched in tears, telling me that "the damn computer ate all my pictures!" So I'm in a TeamViewer session trying to find out what happened and trying to revive the pix. :(
probably, I don't know. :D @Ell
Computer decided it didn't happen.
Why did you tell her your real job?
22:02
@sbi I put a thing on my mother's computer that automatically backs up her important files to her USB whenever she plugs it in.
sbi
sbi
You laugh. But that's 92GB of pix from some of my kids.
If they were deleted, then the system should not be running from the affected drive.
Xeo
Xeo
@sbi Ask if she pressed [shift]+[del] at any point
@sbi Didn't know you had more than one ex-wife.
@DzekTrek interestingly, my phone refuses to load that page. Not the video, the youtube page that holds the video. Ah, as I watch closer, it redirects to login, redirects to verifyage, then redirects to youtube home before rendering anything.
22:04
Careless filesystem activity increases the chance of permanent data loss.
@DeadMG He's constantly bragging about it.
Ok, maybe not bragging.
@Xeo she'll say no, they always do
lol
sbi
sbi
@MooingDuck Yeah, it seems one of her ex-boyfriends did exactly the same with some external drive, and she, knowing it's all backed up, deleted them from drive C:\. Well, at least that's my current theory. Of course, she denies having done anything.
@MooingDuck Yep.
@DeadMG There seems to be a lot happening here that you miss. About 90% of everything that's not about programming.
@sbi use advanced system care, under toolbox choose undelete option, from there click on pictures to recover and voila.
22:07
Lounge<10% of C++>
@sbi you've divorced multiple women on this chat?
Ell
Ell
recuuva?
well, I am currently powering my way through four seasons of Jonathan Creek
@MooingDuck it's one nice girl with nice teets. :D
@DzekTrek I tried to load it on my phone because on my computer, the "preview" pic made it looks NSFW.
@DzekTrek it's usually safe to assume Windows in general for non-computer people
22:08
:D
Yep, I use Windows all the time.
@DzekTrek where is "Advanced System Care" found?
Well, it's a program to download
sbi
sbi
@DzekTrek What?
very recommended one for that kind of situations.
22:11
I have a question. I tried one of those operating system tutorials that give you a basic bootloader code in assembly. The problem is, what if I want to get further from that screen?
@sbi, check for advanced system care app
Don't write your own bootloader. Use GRUB.
download it
Write the rest?
and follow the instructions as written in the previous message
22:11
You know how after the boot loader loads, the computer gives the control to Windows where the the windows startup screen is displayed? How could I possibly do that?
@user1079641 use GRUB
Multi-stage bootloaders are not trivial, and unless you want to play with bootloaders and not OSes, don't write your own.
how does grub work? in basic way, what is the process? like it loads the computer components and then?
OS itself is complicated enough.
how does it get to start up screen?
how would I connect my os startup to the boot loader?
22:13
The 512 bootstrap loads a stage2 executable from hardcoded filesystem location, and jumps to that. The rest is whatever you code into stage2.
@user1079641 and then it runs them
sbi
sbi
@jalf Knowing that, to most of the world, I'm anonymous here, I have revealed some personal details, this among them, just the other day. Since @Dead is online just about all the time, I'm sure he's been online then. For all I know, he might have been discussing his language at the same time, totally missing everything else going on. We had this just the other day, when we were discussing who of the regulars here are from which country. IIRC, he even misplaced you.
But don't try to fit any UI into stage1, it's pretty much impossible.
@user1079641 you configure the boot loader to run your code
@CatPlusPlus What is stage 1? Just a terminal?
sbi
sbi
22:14
@Ell That's the one I had downloaded and tried.
@Maxpm No, the code that resides in boot sector.
what extension does my code need?
It's extremely limited in size.
@user1079641 your code isn't a file, it doesn't have an extension
sbi
sbi
Anyway, I gotta go to bed.
22:15
@CatPlusPlus Oh, I see.
@user1079641 You're not ready for bootloaders nor OSes.
Really.
@sbi I do have a habit of leaving the chat open when I'm not exactly paying a great deal of attention to it
@user1079641 If you're thinking in terms of "start up screens" and "extensions", you're not ready for this.
@CatPlusPlus seconded
It's not a beginner topic.
22:15
Damn, cat beat me to the punch.
Don't worry, I am not about to build a major OS
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG "For all I know, he might have been discussing his language at the same time, totally missing everything else going on."
Oh, that we know about.
true true
In fact, it's the only thing you can be certain about when playing around with OSes. :P
22:16
@user1079641 seriously, don't touch teh boot loader. You aren't there yet
You should check out Gentoo Linux, and then Linux from Scratch.
All I came here to ask was how exactly is my code connected to the boot loader
They're great for learning about things like GRUB.
sbi
sbi
Anyway, I really gotta go to bed now. Good night!
Gentoo is just a distribution like any other.
22:16
@sbi Good night.
if I have full fledged OS code that starts up, how would I connect it to a boot loader so my OS can be bootable?
LFS is pain.
@user1079641 The boot loader detects your code, you don't "connect it" as far as I know
Your bootloader needs to know the filesystem enough to locate and read the kernel.
22:17
when i say connect, i mean do i have to go into boot loader files and specify location?
You load the code into some memory location, and jump there.
This is all before the filesystem is mounted, so there is no "location" in the path sense.
And unless your bootloader has the knowledge of complex executable formats like ELF, it's flat binaries all around.
@user1079641 no, the boot loader should automatically find the OS if you did it right.
Really, just use GRUB. Bootloaders aren't fun.
22:19
It's worth noting that GRUB can only directly load multiboot-compliant operating systems.
With GRUB, you don't have to worry about A20, switching into pmode, locating the kernel, parsing the executable, and all that boring stuff.
What if I want to write a custom boot loader by myself that has graphics capabilities like the new Windows 8 one works?
It has to be multi-stage.
@user1079641 actually, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_GRUB says I have no idea what I'm talking about
22:20
You've got 512 bytes to locate the stage2 bootloader on the filesystem, load it and jump into it.
@RMartinhoFernandes I am not as experienced as you might be in this and so I am asking...no need to get frustrated about it
@Maxpm Multiboot is trivial.
@user1079641 first take about 8 years of classes, then another 8 years of work experience. Then you'll have enough to start learning this.
And gives you some system information for free, which is cool.
that is what i am talking about
22:21
@user1079641 I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to write a custom bootloader, go for it.
Also: you won't write a GUI system.
Some assembly required.
Windows 8 is a fairly pile of balls
You just won't.
*Rimshot*
22:22
Forget about it.
@Maxpm nice
@user1079641 You're trying to bite more than you can chew.
what do you mean windows 8 is a....
Unless you have several years of time just for that.
@user1079641 We are software developers. We do not like Windows.
22:22
Windows 8 is developed continually from codebase that's years old, by a experienced team of developers.
Don't think about Windows when writing your own OS.
Or Linux.
@Maxpm I'm a software dev and I love Windows.
It's not your league.
but 8 is a pile of balls
Well, my main goal is to write a gui os
Then change the goal to not include GUI.
22:23
one that can open and run apps
?
not gui?
@DeadMG Yes, I rather like Vista and 7 for anything that doesn't touch software development. Gaming, media, schoolwork...but the Metro UI is just horrendous.
Learn how to write the kernel first, and after those few years you can think about some simple GUI.
1) get some programming experience. 2) learn some OS theory.
You will not write GUI as your first attempt.
My computer is not a tablet. Don't give me an operating system that acts like it is.
22:24
Or second.
@user1079641 why not take on an easier project, like sending a rocket to space (seriously, space is easier)
Or 100th.
@Maxpm I don't mind using it for software development at all
@DeadMG Really? Huh.
OS kernel is hard enough that you probably won't finish that. GUI subsystem is twice that much work.
And reserve years of time.
It's not something you can write overnight.
22:25
@Maxpm Why would I?
I don't know if this helps, but I have experience in these languages: VB, C#, Java, a little assembly.
7 has no Metro.
my, admittedly somewhat limited, experience of using Unix for development was that it was horrifically bad.
@user1079641 VB, C#, and Java mean you're already too far lost to learn OS design.
@user1079641 Doesn't matter. Bare metal programming is much different from anything you've written so far.
Even in assembly.
22:27
@DeadMG Case-insensitive filesystem. Lack of good command-line tools.
Ell
Ell
someone should call an assembler "orgasm". they all end in "asm", right?
Not to discourage you, but this is really, really hard task.
@Maxpm Lack of good command-line tools is a plus, not a minus.
@Maxpm CLI tools aren't related to the OS.
You can install coreutils just fine.
@CatPlusPlus well, we want to discourage this, but not programming in general
22:28
@Maxpm I develop on Windows with Unix tools.
I've got no bones about the fact that I vastly prefer GUIs over CLIs
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm sorry
Well, I managed to write bootable kernel 6 years ago.
It did just that, but hey.
@CatPlusPlus Fair enough.
@MooingDuck Sorry for what?
22:28
I don't feel the need for coreutils, or really lack anything, though.
I don't fancy shell one-liners, either, so screw bash.
Ell
Ell
I just hate how you cant even resize cmd
All file management goes through TC.
Ell
Ell
without going to properties
My ridiculously ambitious "I-have-too-much-free-time" goal is to build Gobo Linux from LFS.
@Ell Who cares? cmd is the wrong tool for Windows anyway.
22:30
@Ell Only horizontally. Also there's mode con.
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG or porwershell
That console window is horribly broken, everyone knows.
Ell
Ell
My rediculously ambitious "I hate too much free time" goal is to build a clone of RPG Maker VX. A cross platform one
Ell
Ell
22:31
@AlfPSteinbach the console window is broken - cant resize it. in cmd or powershell
I am interested in software programming or web programming and since software maybe not my thing, should I go into web programming? if so, what is the best language right now for more efficient and heavy use?
Actually, I think I'll start on a vanilla LFS system now.
@Ell yes it's broken but it's also a case of Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair (PEBKAC)
Right, because webapps are not software.
Ell
Ell
@AlfPSteinbach I'm not familiar with that...
22:32
@user1079641 software might not be your thing? I see that as a downside for a software programmer.
try e.g. mode
Xeo
Xeo
Okay robot, I'm back to +0. :s
@Ell Console window has nothing to do with shell.
When I come back, I expect to be given a bucket to contain my tears.
@user1079641 Wait, software is not your thing and you want to write an OS?
@Xeo What did you do?
Ell
Ell
22:32
@CatPlusPlus it does in windows I thought?
Xeo
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Nuke my answer
Ell
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I thought cmd was both the shell and the terminal emulator in windows
Xeo
Xeo
8
Q: Why can't I specialize the nested template member without specializing enclosing class template first?

Mr.AnubisHere is the code : template <typename T> struct A { template <typename U> struct B; }; template <typename T> template <> // 0_o struct A<T>::B<int> {}; I know I can't do this but I'm more interested to know logically Why can't I specialize the n...

@Ell No, it's an OS component, cmd is just command processor.
like mode con cols=120 lines=600
or something
22:33
@Xeo Also, I found a nice question and I made my answer community wiki. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but now I miss the rep.
or right click the title bar and choose properties
Ell
Ell
@AlfPSteinbach it would be nice if i could just drag the bottom right though
It lives in conhost.exe nowadays.
The reason I say its not my thing because you guys have basically told me that what I want will just not happen.
or for the pure window size just drag the bottom right
yes
works for me
Ell
Ell
22:34
@user1079641 start with something small
Ell
Ell
@AlfPSteinbach I can't resize horizontally
@user1079641 You just need realistic goals. Everyone tries OS at some point, but there's a reason there aren't all that many OSes around.
you can surely reduce the horizontal window size
Ell
Ell
but not enlarge
22:35
to make it wider you have to configure a wider text buffer, e.g. as with the mode command
Ell
Ell
meh, I never use it anyway lols
it's not difficult
If there's one very annoying thing Windows does it'd be executable write lock.
the reasons console windows are broken have to do with other things
You can rename it, but overwrite? Nooo.
22:35
like console page support
@user1079641 I've been programming for 8 years, and the code you were describing is way beyond my reach. You can do software, just not bootloaders/OS stuff
@user1079641 Writing a bootloader and/or operating system can happen, but it is not the place to start.
and how defaults are stored
and text selection
the alternatives (Console, and the other open source project) are unfortunately not better, imho
Console is a hack, basically.
just more eye candy
22:37
People these days say C, VB, C# is all old and java is the way to go nowadays. I just don't see how java can be used to develop much good applications
If you need something to do, learn D (it's not all that different from C++) and join my project at code.google.com/p/decora.
Ell
Ell
@user1079641 who says these are old?
Java is older than C#.
D is a hell
lot difficult than C++
@Maxpm Screw D, write Haskell!
java is in a boom and more java people are being hired than any C vb or thing like that...
Blah blah blah marketing nonsense.
Well, Visual Basic is old and crappy.
22:38
@CatPlusPlus Most of my library could be written in Haskell, actually. It is functional by design.
@JohannesSchaublitb VB with semicolons.
I love the techniques that Haskell taught me, and the functional programming paradigm in general.
@Ell the Java guys
Who doesn't.
22:39
That said, I want D to be my "main" language.
i don't like FP
@user1079641 Last I checked C# still was above java, thought the recent movement has been back to compiled languages (C++)
it is like trying to be elegant but not using loops makes everything harder
We (FPers) don't like you.
Tail recursion is loops.
22:40
Who needs loops?
@JohannesSchaublitb Loops in the imperative sense don't make sense in FP. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Ell
Ell
yeah. just use goto
Also, map, filter et al.
no in my loops it's "for" and "while"
@user1079641 as a note, almost every OS is written in C (sometimes with sprinklings of C++) and assembly. You're going to want to learn those.
22:41
You can write kernels in C++ with little trouble.
It needs bit more boilerplate runtime support for basic things, but it works just fine.
@CatPlusPlus there's still a lot of debate there, mostly centered around new and exceptions
yes but most companies these days want java programmers
Ell
Ell
is it BSD thats written mostly in c++ as opposed to C?
@user1079641 I call bullshit.
Well, you won't be using exceptions in the kernel, probably.
22:42
@MooingDuck new is as problematic as malloc.
@user1079641 I don't think so, everyone I see is hiring C++ or C#
@MooingDuck If that was true, Microsoft would upgrade their C compiler.
@RMartinhoFernandes right, just exceptions then
Do not - I repeat, do NOT - learn a language because a lot of companies are hiring for it.
22:42
RTTI and exceptions require much more runtime support, but they're also not crucial.
@CatPlusPlus I know of three OS's written in Java too. Doesn't mean that's normal.
@Maxpm Unless you want a job in that language.
If you want Java job, learn Java. It's just a tool.
Xeo
Xeo
[Voted into WP at August, 21010 meeting.]
if you do the languages few ppl can code and many companies want, then you gonna be rich
Xeo
Xeo
It's from the future!
22:43
so better NOT learn haskell
If you know few languages, learning another is not a problem.
because it's the new hip hop
@CatPlusPlus I don't follow. If you want a Java job, you have to want Java first, no?
You should learn Haskell, even if you're not going to be using it on a job.
Learn Haskell because it's awesome. Then learn COBOL to get a job.
22:44
Learn Haskell, even if you want to never be a Haskell programmer.
Or open your own business with Haskell.
Possibilities are endless!
It will change the way you think about programming.
Ell
Ell
why is haskell so great?
Because.
Because it's awesome.
Xeo
Xeo
22:45
Okay, anybody with the real C++11 standard here?
This chat is too small to describe it in full.
Ell
Ell
oh its great because its awesome, now I see!
pretty satisfied with inventing my own language :P
@Xeo Just built it (download link on my profile if you want :).
Ell
Ell
yea, I will google it
22:45
I live in America and I am talking about American companies, they all want java developers
@Ell Functional programming is great, and Haskell has this fabulous book.
@Xeo I have a draft
Then learn Java.
Xeo
Xeo
@MooingDuck Me too. :P
It's not very complicated anyway.
22:46
@user1079641 I live in washington, you are mistaken
Ell
Ell
its my bedtime now - bye bye
@Xeo What's wrong with ns3242 ?
@user1079641 Ok, we get it, you have made up your mind already. Learn Java.
Ell
Ell
...im not going until someone says goodnight -.-
Xeo
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes No, just a quick check. 14.7.3/5, the examples
22:46
@Ell Bon soir.
good night
Xeo
Xeo
does the explicit specialization of A have more than one member?
i have not made up my mind
Ell
Ell
yay thank you
bye bye :)
Xeo
Xeo
@kbok It's too old and I need the actual standard paper, not a draft, to compare
22:47
@user1079641 langpop.com
@Xeo Which one?
There's a bunch of explicit specializations.
Xeo
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes of A?
@Xeo I see
Oh, wait, there's only a A<int>.
Xeo
Xeo
Yes, that's the one.
How many members?
22:49
Yes, only a void f(int);.
template<> struct A<int> {
    void f(int);
};
see the thing is i have a friend who is in the recruiting business and so he gets requirements from companies for type of developers they want
he said most of the requirements come for java
Xeo
Xeo
template<> struct A<int> {
  void f(int);
  struct B;
  template<class U> struct C;
};
In the proposed resolution
[Voted into the WP at the March, 2011 meeting as part of paper N3262.]
@user1079641 Statistics disagree with you.
22:51
@Xeo That domain name is unfortunate.
Xeo
Xeo
Did anybody mention yet that Java sucks?
@Xeo Well, this is from 29 January 2012.
@Xeo I thought that was implicit.
on the question of erotica on a laptop
@user1079641 That's observer bias: he sees lots of requirements for Java developers because he works with companies that do Java.
Xeo
Xeo
22:52
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, but still. They either voted it out again or changed the proposed resolution...
Seems they voted it out again, Clang accepts without template<> and throws up with it
Why are we arguing over popularity? We're like a clique of high-school girls.
i think people should be aware that if such a folder is marked "hidden" in Windows, so as to prevent accidental browsing into there by people using your laptop
then Windows Explorer is likely to remember the paths to subfolders in drop-down list of "breadcrumbs", and *only* paths to the hidden folders
stored in registry key Explorer something TypedPaths
which can only be deleted by killing all instances of Windows Explorer
I think Microsoft did something ingenious here
If you want techniques to hide a digital porn stash, there's a TVTropes page about it...
@AlfPSteinbach I concur.
Providing a way to apparently hide things, and then letting Windows Explorer unhide it :_9
22:55
Xeo
Xeo
// Pop quiz: which function template is specialized?
template <class T> void f(T);  #1
template <class T> void f(T*); #2
template <> void f(int*);
@Xeo What the heck is template <>?
Xeo
Xeo
@Maxpm Explicit specialization

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