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07:01
A beauty of a tyop
@Mikhail i think you're best off assuning you can tbh, can take a look when i get to work though :)
I basically want to spinlock on an integer ready signal....
> dear lazy-web
@sehe "flirting with UB", what if you take it to a fancy restaurant instead?
@Mikhail Impossible
07:10
So, why do we use std::atomic<int32_t>?
Because of caches and ordering
so things like inc aren't atomic
But what could go wrong with the cache? It can't be torn, only the old and new values can appear... (Also only considering aligned cases)
Ell
Ell
Welp 3 hours early for the flight
@Mikhail The caches don't contain the most up to date value
Also ordering! (membars)
You can never get a torn read or write though
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Okay, but it will eventually get here right? And when it does it will change from the old to the new value with no intermediates? So we can still spin lock? Or even use a condition variable to awake that thread.
Ell
Ell
07:15
I thought spinlocks were a bad solution to anything
That is a busy loop isn't it?
That's the thing, without proper ordering you can't guarantee there are no intermediates
@Ell Yes, but they do have their uses
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva But you told me there were no intermediates because there are no torn-writes...
No, torn writes and intermediates are a different thing
Assuming no reordering and no caches, atomic<int> would be redundant indeed, with int <= native word size
But what would a failure look like? How do we see an intermediate value that is neither the old or new value for 32bit aligned int writes...
With more than 1 writer that's easy
07:18
Compute something with a stale value, put it someplace.
But what if we are doing write from only one thread and reading from another?
Then no problem
user1804599
It took me two airstrikes to take down a sniper.
user1804599
@sehe :p I'll check it out
user1804599
> Name the first five animals you can think of
user1804599
07:25
> Squirrel
user1804599
Yes it was squirrel.
@Mikhail Still don’t use int for it though, you’d be lying to the compiler.
Unless the compiler manual tells you 'go for it'.
The old MSVC used to implement volatile T as std::atomic<T>
Other way around?
Other way around
07:27
@JonClements I want to flag this so much right now :\
And actually that's not even true
@LucDanton msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/12a04hfd%28v=vs.80%29.aspx This allows volatile objects to be used for memory locks and releases in multithreaded applications.
MSVC implements volatile as load-acquires/store-releases semantics but that doesn't provide atomicity.
@Mikhail Ctrl-F atomic gives nothing.
9
Q: Are volatile reads and writes atomic on Windows+VisualC?

Martin BaThere are a couple of questions on this site asking whether using a volatile variable for atomic / multithreaded access is possible: See here, here, or here for example. Now, the C(++) standard conformant answer is obviously no. However, on Windows & Visual C++ compiler, the situation seems not...

07:29
k
3 mins ago, by Mikhail
The old MSVC used to implement volatile T as std::atomic<T>
3 mins ago, by Anastasiya Asadullayeva
Other way around
read carefully
its 2:30 and I'm still at work
esp. helped by the fact one predates the other by a long shot
I can only read from left to right
then how you can be reading messages above the last one
looking at the monitor side ways
user1804599
07:30
> Have you ever thrown out all your different pairs of socks/underwear, bought a bunch of replacements that were all one kind, and then told all your friends how great it was and how they should do it too?
makes sense
user1804599
lol
o_0 so new functionality is being added, question final raised regarding the GUI "Do we need to add the option to do this?".
user1804599
my colleague did that like three days ago
Mikhail, MSVC's volatile provided memory barriers, not atomicity of operations aside of load and stores, which are atomic regardless of volatileness on x86/64 anyway.
eg, i++ is not atomic even if i is volatile; but i++ is atomic if i is std::atomic<int>
i = 3 is atomic regardless
Ell
Ell
07:32
Man I really need to learn about concurrency
user1804599
Learn Erlang.
Ell
Ell
I know pretty much 0 about memory.barriers and locks n shit
And torn writes may appear when you need more than 1 memory transaction to complete a write, which depends on the underlying architecture
user1804599
They're shit, but if you want to learn about them anyway, learn C++.
A 64bits processor can read/write at least 64 bits at once, so any load/store at least that narrow is atomic
07:34
@Ell locks lock and memory barriers make a barrier :)
I can't help but feel that productive chat always seems to happen when I'm not here...
user1804599
at most that narrow*
Xeo
Xeo
Cicada, your multiple personalities are getting slightly out of hand.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Okay so i++ is not atomic because some thing could have written into the variable before it is incremented, or simply put it involves two operations. But i++ is atomic because they overload-ed the ++ operator to fuse the two operations?
> slightly
user1804599
07:35
Also the C++ compiler may optimise based on the assumption that they're not atomic.
I don't say at most that wide because sometimes the memory transactions are larger, for example a 64b processor may very well be able to carry out 128b transactions (just an example!)
@elyse At least that narrow
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva well, volatile said nothing about atomicity. It's about expecting quite the opposite, that other threads might change this value, so don't just rely on this threads cache
@Mikhail No, because it requires a load followed by a write, ie, 2 operations. An atomic write is a fused load/write.
user1804599
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Ah, so if my processor can write 64 bits atomically, then I can make it write 100000 bits atomically as well.
@Xeo out of cock more like :\
07:36
@elyse Read my sentence again
user1804599
No.
user1804599
I already read it like three times since it was wrong.
@Xeo I don't get it :p
@elyse At least that narrow: 64 or less.
64bit unlike 32bit has torn-writes...
07:37
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva 'at least' would mean 64 or more...
no because it's at least that narrow
Okay I'll reword
user1804599
yes
user1804599
you're wrong thecoshman
07:38
You're guaranteed that anything <= 64 will be atomic. But it could be more.
If I said I want a doorway at least 6ft narrow, then a 20ft wide door suffices
user1804599
if your mom is at least 1000000 metres skinny, shes at most 1000000 metres fat.
the use of 'narrow' or 'wide' does not change the fact that you stated a dimension of 'at least 6ft'
user1804599
you're wrong and bad at English as usual
Ell
Ell
okay I got into fuse private beta. Now I have to remember what it is and why I signed up.
07:39
s/at least that narrow/up to that width/
NO, it could be more than that width
user1804599
lol, people in #haskell who don't understand anything about memory management are talking about JVM's GC and virtual memory.
user1804599
How to be a great Haskell programmer: don't understand computers.
what are computers
2
128bit width is at least 64bit wide. 128bit narrow is at least 64bit narrow. The width/narrow doesn't change the 'at least' part
user1804599
07:41
japanese people
Xeo
Xeo
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva "up to at least that width"
> 128bit narrow is at least 64bit narrow
no
@Xeo Yes, that's better worded
I should learn English.
oh, you mean to say if a 64bit only writes 64bit words, then it can read up to 64 bits atomically, but if the chip can write up to 128bit words, it can read up to 128bit atomically?
Yes, I don't know exactly how that works, but sometimes the underlying bus is larger than the processor natural word size.
it just access address N and N+1 vOv
07:44
Yeah but that has far reaching implications
I guess it's like old chips might only access one byte at a time, but can calculate with 2byte words
:25480216 thanks :D
huh... it doesn't highlight what deleted comment that was a response to any more
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva does it?
No but I know which one it is~
user1804599
not exactly hard to tell :D
my wrist really hurts :\ and before you say it, I use the other hand ¬_¬
Ell
Ell
Lawl
user1804599
07:48
@thecoshman don't fap so much
@Ell same
how many hands do you have remaining?
You might need a better plan.
Did you try lotion?
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman My arms and hands hurt like fuck from yesterday...
What did you guys do?
A secret fap contest
07:57
Mudwrestle?
Uprooting christmas trees?
Help telkitty put up the new kitchen?
It's spelt chicken
So who's going CppCon this year?
:D
not me :(
@OMGtechy It's a con
07:58
@sehe I believe the same implies this
I'm going
mawning
@AndyProwl awesome :D doing any talks?
I mean, it could hardly be more blatant
@AndyProwl good bye
@ElimGarak mornin
07:58
@OMGtechy nope, but @Griwes will have a talk there
@ElimGarak demoines
user1804599
@AndyProwl That's quite a good reason to not go there.
@AndyProwl cool :) everyone I'm going with is doing a talk and I'm trying to think of one myself aha
@sehe :P
user1804599
bleh
07:59
@sehe I remember you had done a low-latency logger a few months ago, was the string formatting done on the caller thread or the background thread?
@Xeo my back is bruised like hell, upper legs surprisingly tired, and right wrist cripples :\ but I'd do it again for sure :D
user1804599
The first time I run my tests after booting, they fail because of timeouts.
only a lightning talk mind, but picking a topic is far harder than actually doing it for me aha
@OMGtechy I've been thinking whether I should not try a lightning talk but I don't feel like very much
@sehe go-karting
user1804599
08:00
The second time, everything is cached, and thus faster. Then they don't fail.
@AndyProwl what would you do it on?
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman I have two spots on my sides that hurt because the seat was a bit... on the small side.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I think I made it so the caller decides. It's not a one-size fits all situation.
@elyse au contraire, I'm quite curious
@thecoshman do it f. yourself
:D
08:00
¬_¬
Xeo
Xeo
Also, yeah, legs surprisingly tired.
@AndyProwl Do a live Hitler scene. Fits the time extents
Xeo
Xeo
And I couldn't lift a bottle anymore yesterday...
@OMGtechy probably TDD, but there's already tenths of talk on it
08:01
@Xeo be damned if I can work out why :\
Xeo
Xeo
Crazy how intense that was on the armes.
the thing is I don't particularly like any of the talks I've seen on the topic
@Xeo lol, I can see how if I had that long I'd be the same
Sony dumbasses made a commercial 4K phone. Pointless.
user1804599
Maybe I should set the timeout higher.
user1804599
08:01
However, I can't test whether that works without rebooting first. :v
@ElimGarak Too heavy, 200g is the maximum I'm willing to carry.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman Cramped position, constant switching with the gas / brakes, and the vibrations from the kart.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva How do you find these? Whenever I'm looking for something buried in old chatrooms, I lose half a day searching.
Or did you abuse the fact that you mentioned and found it earlier?
user1804599
Unless there's a way to tell Linux to clear the cache in question.
Xeo
Xeo
But man was it fun.
08:02
I just remember a keyword ("NSE")
@ElimGarak It should have been a pro-deo one?
user1804599
Also I should really set up CI.
user1804599
But it's so much effort.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva wut. It doesn't immediately ring a bell :)
@elyse /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
08:03
in On lockfree logging, queuing and memory order, Feb 2 at 9:59, by A Most Majestuous Capybara
... you work for NSE?
Xeo
Xeo
If my hands didn't develop some blisters (I should've brought some gloves...), I could've gone for a third race.
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus nice let's see
@Xeo Developers are the third race
ITT Xeo and cosh are having an encrypted discussion on how great their sex session was
@elyse echo 3 > ...
Xeo
Xeo
08:04
lol
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus Yes, that worked! Thanks. :)
user1804599
@sehe echo 3 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
like that
Depending on the fs you could force a remount too
user1804599
lol sometimes it takes over a second
Frankly, I think you're out of your depth. It's a bit harder to find and operate xsd.exe (that you apparently managed) than the documentation for XmlSerializer. Many many many many examples can be found on Stack Overflow. Good luck — sehe 7 secs ago
Xeo
Xeo
08:09
sweet, boss allowed me home office for today
> Here is some of the C# class i am not going to post it all since it is 10,000 lines of code..
user1804599
OP is terrible.
Voted as "unclear what you're asking"
Maybe he meant , as a decimal separator
Too localized. Pfft
:)
08:13
mehning
I don't understand syslog log levels
of loif
@ArneMertz Mertzning
What's there to understand
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva severe, cataclysmic, exuberant and drivel
08:13
@AndyProwl still sounds good, can you fit something meaningful into a lightning talk though?
@OMGtechy probably not
@OMGtechy mehningful
meaningitis
Like, uh, emergency and critical, what's the difference. Or notice and info.
Whatever you want
@sehe men in gitis
08:14
mean & full
I'll log everything as EMERGENCY
Log levels don't have any inherent meaning
@Xeo gz - tomorrow will be my last day of HO this year...
ciritical - requiring attention.
emergency - having immediate detrimental consequence
log.wtf
08:15
There isn't even fatal
Emergency is fatal
In computing, syslog is a widely used standard for message logging. It permits separation of the software that generates messages, the system that stores them, and the software that reports and analyzes them. Computer system designers may use syslog for system management and security auditing as well as general informational, analysis, and debugging messages. A wide variety of devices, such as printers and routers, and message receivers across many platforms use the syslog standard. This permits the consolidation of logging data from different types of systems in a central repository. Implementations...
There you go~
> This level should not be used by applications.
._.
@Xeo I think the indoor ones are smaller, but then the outdoor track is rough as fook
user1804599
I don't understand syslog at all.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman Probably. There were many curves to be had, though.
08:16
We also had left foot brakes, not that you really need the brake much, except in the wet :D
user1804599
I can never find out where it stores the fucking log files.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman left brakes, right gas. But you couldn't touch the brakes the slightes, else the gas one would be disabled
I mostly agree with levels 2 to 7
Xeo
Xeo
which is what I meant with switching
@elyse Where it's configured to
08:17
@elyse pro tip, don't log fucking
Xeo
Xeo
left / right pressing down on the pedal
@Xeo Track we were on had this rather cheeky bend near start, it starts of quite wide, then tightens up on you, then hair pins back to the left.
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus can never find config files
Depends on syslog implementation
What was the argument against text log files again
08:18
@Xeo oh, interesting set up. They just told us that we should lift from A else it hurts the poor karts
yesterday, by Cat Plus Plus
Even just logging to stderr is better
Xeo
Xeo
The finishing straight plus the part until the first > 90 degree curve was the only part where you could go full throttle
everything else felt like... curveeeees
Text/binary is not a useful distinction
@sehe console.log in javascript on IE 8 is fatal IIRC
Xeo
Xeo
there were a few other straights, but not long enough to just floor the pedal and go to town for more than 5 seconds
08:19
IE 8 is fatal
can't argue with that
@Xeo if you go to town you'll never finish first
@Xeo oh yeah, any bend you'd want to be full comming out of it
@LucDanton jour
08:20
lut
"IE8 is..." I can think of some pretty decent words not to be said in polite company about that one :p
:)
some bends were nice, you could push the cart and just about go full throttle whilst keeping a nice line
@Xeo was this your first time?
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman yeah, we had one or two of those
Yeah me too. The worst I heard was "IE 8 is a web browser".
That's just... rude
Xeo
Xeo
08:21
@thecoshman The first time in what, 10 years or so?
@Sehe that's just a plain fallacy
@Xeo :O we should look to maybe do a session in Pooland for uncon, can you imagine how crazy there karts would be
@sehe thanks (see! you found that one p quickly)
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman Omg yes please.
@Xeo I don't speak poolish, but I'll see what I can do :D
08:22
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva that was not buried in some old chatroom
user1804599
Not sure if I should have Nginx act as a WebSocket proxy or not.
@sehe Was it not :D
user1804599
Probably will. I have no experience at all with SSL in Erlang.
@elyse this exemplifies the state of programming in 2015
@sehe Just give it a try when it's ready, I guess. Like I said, from usage I prefer the annotation system.
08:24
That is so much like "I have no experience using screws in a wooden wall facing the south on the second floor of an apartment building :S
user1804599
eh?
user1804599
I could learn about it, and probably get it wrong.
@Mr.kbok I like annotation. I just don't think that for just serialization it's less involved
user1804599
Or I could use Nginx, with which I do have experience with SSL, and get it right.
@sehe Probably not. Just "more enjoyable" :P
08:25
Yeah. That's the state of programming in 2015
Actually, people could have implemented abstract services that you could just employ and not get wrong.
You'd have all the vulnerabilities everyone else enjoys!
user1804599
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Hi, everyone. Good morning.
Good morning
user1804599
Are you criticising my choice?
I'm feeling a bit tired. Do you usually sleep that late @sehe? How many hours a day do you sleep usually?
08:28
@elyse that's also pretty sad
user1804599
You should get a job in cryptography.
I'm talking about the sadness of programmers in 2015 still having to build their own lego bricks before they can start
@elyse would you recommend me
@sehe agreed
@sehe but we know that every lego brick is wrong :\
user1804599
What lego bricks?
08:29
@elyse no. I'm lamenting the fact that you're having to make this choice
It's because most lego bricks have weird shapes or are made out of metal/cardboard
@thecoshman yup sadly
@elyse ssl streams, in this case
user1804599
I am not implementing SSL myself.
ikr
user1804599
I'll just go with an Nginx proxy.
user1804599
08:31
I could maybe even run it on port 80 with everything else, working better with firewalls.
8 mins ago, by elyse
Probably will. I have no experience at all with SSL in Erlang.
Here you have it. Erlang: the network oriented language of choice. Designed for telecoms! Comes with SSL support but only for the fearless!?
user1804599
It comes with SSL support, but I have no idea about it at all.
user1804599
I've never even skimmed its SSL documentation.
user1804599
Maybe it's really easy to set up. I don't know.
@elyse If the firewall blocks 443 then you don't want to be in that network
user1804599
08:31
Eh yes, 443.
user1804599
Not 80. :p
@elyse I pray to god it would be
user1804599
> For security reasons SSL-2.0 is not supported.
For security reasons SSL-3.0 is no longer supported by default, but can be configured.
user1804599
nice
I doubt it :P
o_0 I don't even know what version of SSL is 'current'
user1804599
None. SSL is dead. Use TLS.
user1804599
But everybody calls TLS SSL.
with some reason
@elyse Nein nein, Cowboy!
user1804599
Cowboy is the HTTP server library I use.
08:34
note to self, before attempting anything that needs security, read shit first :\
user1804599
@sehe oh I get it now, lol
user1804599
"nine nines" means "99.9999999% uptime"
why not ninety nine red nines?
@thecoshman note to pirate: you came to this revelation a decade late
Whoah I just checked the Jam #3 entries, I'd never be able to produce that in 24h D:
08:53
the whole point of the jam is that to generate code that people throw away later on?
> Aren't you happy tcm did this with edit restrictions, like a sane person
@chmod711telkitty you're confused with traffic jams or paper jams
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Where is it?
does anyone here work on clang?
> Can Android (Java) run at 120FPS?
Here comes the 120 fps 4k android smartphone @Elim
@OMGtechy Looks like @Lalaland does, looking at his git repository?

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