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21:00
No no that's the point
Nothing works if you consider most people assholes
It doesn't have to be "most"
It breaks far earlier than that
Ell
Ell
librarians :L
@CatPlusPlus Currently neither
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ people were ass holes, are ass holes and always will be asholes
@Ell /slow clap
user406009
21:00
@thecoshman True, there is a certain degree of anarchy. But they still want the justice system.
Ell
Ell
You should read "The Machinery of Freedom"
Maybe if you think everyone's wrong and you're right then maybe you need to rethink things???
Maybe if you're dumb you need to stop being dumb?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ nothing works if you forget people are asshjoles
user406009
@Ell Yep, the libertarian "racist laws" counterargument doesn't really have a good counter.
21:01
That's why courts are hierarchical and it takes a lot of votes to push new shit and
@CatPlusPlus Thanksfully Galileo didn't think like you do
Ell
Ell
@lalal I can't really follow this convo tbh becaus. I'm on mobile on A terribly slow phone
when I get back to England we can discuss :P
Exceptions, rules, etc; in almost all cases thinking you're a genius and everyone else is going the wrong way is wrong
If you go around saying "everyone's an asshole", maybe its you who is really the asshole
Also who the fuck is "everybody" here?
user1804599
21:03
everybody
@TonyTheLion what part of 'everyone' don't you get?
Occam's razor and all
@thecoshman your mum
@TonyTheLion asshole
21:04
Everyone would fit in your mom like 10 times
@CatPlusPlus it'd be ten assholes in an asshole
user1804599
two dicks in one asshole
user1804599
ugh
lets stop discussion the hole from which one poops
user1804599
now I want a dick up my ass
21:05
and discuss something more interesting
Since we're already laughing at lolbertarians we could laugh at buttcoiners too
once you accept that people are selfish, and that allowing them to be so simply doesn't work, you can start to bring in practicel rules.
Ell
Ell
we aren't laughing at libertarians
@CatPlusPlus oh yea lets laugh at buttes
@elyse just get a plug and done with it
21:05
Well I am
Let's laugh at lolcat
user1804599
@thecoshman my parents will ask what's in the package
Ell
Ell
What is laughable is socialists thinking it works when there is years and years of demonstrated failure
user406009
We were discussing libertarian ideology. Which has it's pros and cons.
user1804599
21:06
so no, I won't (yet)
user406009
Same like any other governmental system.
@thecoshman what
Ell
Ell
I agree. Public goods are the most difficult issue
National defence for example
user406009
Except I guess CatPlusPlus being our supreme leader.
Ell
Ell
I don't know if a good solution in ancap or any other system
21:07
@elyse sort out a PO box
user406009
@Ell Education and health care are the two I am most concerned about.
If I had enough power to be a supreme leader I'd build an impenetrable fortress somewhere and fuck off there forever
Like I fucking care about leading sheep
Ell
Ell
education and public healthcare aren't public goods - person A doesn't benefit from healthcarw provided for person B
user406009
But aren't you an owner of this room?
21:08
@TonyTheLion if you stop thinking you can rely on people acting selflessly, you can put in place sensible rules/regulations etc.
I guess Poland isn't the best place to be idealistic.
Ell
Ell
With national defence, if I pay and my neighbour doesn't, I still get the benefit
@Ell the clue is sort of in the name btw
@EtiennedeMartel apparently so
user1804599
@thecoshman meh
21:09
Idealism is dumb
Yes, yes it is.
user406009
I disagree. Idealism is important.
@Ell they are. I pay taxes so that little shits can not spend the rest of their lives flipping burgers so that I can retire
Money is important
@Ell person A might not get ill because person B had the ability to see a doctor and so not spread his illness.
Ell
Ell
21:10
They are not by my definition
The rest can be bought
Ell
Ell
@TonyTheLion hmm that is fair.
@Ell by that logic, why should anyone pay, because someone else will. oh wait... we need socialism to resolve this one.
Also did you seriously argue that private education would be better
user406009
21:11
@CatPlusPlus Let me guess, you hate the GPL with a passion?
Ell
Ell
But I think it is different. Even if the person has paid he can still infect people
@Lalaland Not really
Ell
Ell
@thecoshman that was my point. But socialism doesn't solve it either
@CatPlusPlus he didn't argue, I think he stated
@Ell o_0 yes it does
we charge taxes of ~everyone~ and put money towards national services
Ell
Ell
If I pay for private healthcare then I have to pay twice, how is that solved?
21:12
I'm unlikely to use it because it's complex and hard to understand and that dwarfs the arguable benefit of the thing staying open
user406009
I think we've discussed libertarianism enough. @Ell, what are your anti-socialism arguments?
read up the transcript
Ell
Ell
Involuntary transactions by definition have a loser
@Ell But nobody forces you to~~~
@Ell so you think people should not be made to pay any taxes? and thus get no services of any sort they don't directly pay for?
21:14
Yeah who needs a literate, intelligent society
Or roads
Ell
Ell
@thecoshman that's the gist of it yes
Also yes, education should be private
fuck, even roads would be a nightmare! imagine that, fucking tolls every where
@thecoshman Nothing would change.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes it would
21:14
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Middle ages called, they want your illiterate masses back
You would pay for a card or something with which you can travel on some roads.
@CatPlusPlus lol
Ell
Ell
But srs I can't sisc7ss on phone too much effort and RSI etc.
how the fuck do you think we ended up with shit like national roads
Must've been Romans
Ell
Ell
@lala I can discuss in a few weeks :)
21:15
Via the state actually owning the territory?
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Certain sections of the US would be underserved for instance.
@CatPlusPlus steady on there with you crazy solicaist views!
Every road leads to paradise lolbertarian island!
Oh wait
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no, you just got rid of the state doing anything for people
how do you plan to enforce laws?
@thecoshman what
21:16
do we just see who can pay the copper the most money?
Ell
Ell
@cat have you read libertarian stuff before?
cat knows all things
The less things the state owns, the better
Smaller state would be nice
Wonder how much coffee the state drinks in a year
user1804599
Fuck state.
21:17
Oh, sorry, that road is now exclusive premium road, you have to go 100km around
@Ell Yes, enough
@elyse you are mutable
It's very entertaining
There would still be state regulations jesus
How hard is it to understand
I'm not claiming there will be no state
Its all about balance
And state can enforce rules to private business.
Just like it already happens.
21:19
Yes, a state would live very long when there's no taxes
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ sure, so you have no roads being built, no fire service to put out that fire three dooors down the road... two doors down nextdoor fuck my house burnt down. Don't worry, I'll get the police to arrest the arsonist, oh no, the arsonist paid the copper more money then I can afford, so he gets off scot free. And now I have no money to pay for the ambulance to fix my legs that the arsonist just broke. Still, it's not like I could afford the tolls to get to the hospital any way
Or I guess it'll just be bought by someone rich
@CatPlusPlus There would still be taxes
If you go extreme in either direction it won't work.
That's going to be a much better system
21:19
Yes, your sarcasm is very useful
Ell
Ell
No state is better than state, regulation should be done privately
Also the state would have the army
Nobody fucks with you if you have an army
Which would work for free
user406009
Wow, it's almost like we have the whole political rainbow here. Lounge<Revolution>
No, taxes for the state would still be there
21:20
@Ell lol
They would be not as high as they are
Define that
@Ell fuck sake man, open your eyes! give one man power and the country becomes slaves. Privatization is the worse thing for your freedom ever
That is a function word used in the English language for several grammatical purposes. These include: as a complementizer/subordinating conjunction. ("He asked that she go.") to introduce a restrictive relative clause ("The test that she took was hard.") In this role that may be analyzed either as a relative pronoun or as a conjunction as in the first case; see English relative clauses: That a relativizer instead of relative pronoun. as a demonstrative pronoun ("That was hard.") (plural: those) as a demonstrative adjective ("That test was hard.") (plural: those) as an adverb ("The test wasn't that...
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ For interests sake, what governmental services would you like to get rid of?
Ell
Ell
21:21
@thecoshman you gotta be kidding me man
@Lalaland postal offices, motorization, at least part of education, healthcare with propert regulations
Ell
Ell
@cat you never give arguments man, its useless pinging me with anything
Yeah, Cat.
Ell
Ell
It's always "lol" or some sarcastic comment
21:23
Half of your messages are about you laughing at something. We don't care you find something funny.
What's "motorization" anyway
Ell
Ell
The lounge should not go near politics :P
Ask google translate
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ One main counterargument against private postal services is that certain parts of the country would be pretty much unreachable. I think it's great that everyone in a country can communicate.
21:23
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ that doesn't help
@Lalaland You make them pay higher taxes on the delivery
user1804599
@thecoshman there are also dragon dildos with tubes you can fill with faux cum and a button to make it shoot.
That's what Amazon does for example
I believe we already told you what would happen in your ~~~perfect system~~~
21:24
It's a non-issue really
@thecoshman "How to get a car license and shit" is my definition
Vehicle licenses
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ And that's why parts of the country will be unreachable
inb4 self driving cars
So who owns the roads and who issues licenses
Yes, if you live in unreachable places you are unreacheable
Or do you just get rid of those and let everyone do whatever
Ell
Ell
21:25
Roads I am currently a little unsure about
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ so basically you want to cut of rural areas that are deemed 'to expensive' for private companies to deal with except at insane costs. You want toll roads everywhere. what part of education you wanting to fuck over?
@CatPlusPlus Private businesses
See I'm not directly responding to some things because they're so obviously ridiculous and if you actually read back what you're writing you should notice that
@Ell incremental change might be better.
Ell
Ell
21:26
but I'd say there are multiple license providers, who have varying reputsiton which can help to decrease insurance cost
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ What private businesses; and how many of those do you think would be there, and do you seriously not see a problem with roads being owned by a million entities
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ ... you want to leave it to the hands of the private sector to control licensing drivers?
And how do you agree on road laws then
@thecoshman How does Amazon deliver to those areas?
Ell
Ell
Insurers provide cheaper insurance to drivers with license A over B or w/e
21:27
@Ell everyone needs to have roads everywhere. That is why you want it handled as a public service.
@thecoshman Do you think state examiners are much better? lol
Yes, because they're not directly profiting from it
About insurance costs: it would be nice if companies had to make their efficiency easily available money in / money out.
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ One counterargument against private education is that education is very important for social mobility. We want the most qualified people to be able to use their skills. We don't want Bjarne serving hamburgers because he was born in a poor family.
@CatPlusPlus oh sure, we'll have three guys, one drives on the left, one on the right, and one insists you drive 9 wheel cars
21:27
You could take car crash statistics of who issued what and apply a fine to those private schools who cause most incidents.
Give the consumers something to vote on with their money.
not just lies and marketing bs
Ell
Ell
Anarchy is not chaos
not just for insurances
Because I strongly believe so!
user406009
@JohanLarsson One issue is that sometimes consumers cannot "vote" in certain markets. You cannot go price shopping after you get hit by a car for life saving surgery.
21:28
@Lalaland I've had the private education discussione already, let me tight up other discussions first. It's gonna be a long one.
@Ell so basically reach people don't need to be safe, good job
Ell
Ell
@thecoshman everyone needs bread
Everyone needs water
user406009
He is arguing for increased privatization.
@Lalaland yeah sure, overall it would be good to be able to vote more efficiently.
user406009
21:29
We are slowly covering the whole political spectrum.
user406009
Eventually we will hit straight up communism.
@Ell o_0 I... what... yes? and you're point(less)?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ So why would anyone bother running a school if some dumb coincidental statistic is used to fine them
@Lalaland we already did scrub
@thecoshman *your
21:30
Another thing: if and ad can be misunderstood, it should always be interpreted in favour of the consumer.
user406009
@ScottW "postal offices, motorization, at least part of education, healthcare with propert regulations"
Why bread?
@CatPlusPlus Except it's not "dumb coincidental statistic"
Except it is, correlation is not causation
People not able to drive cause car crashes
Ell
Ell
21:30
I'm suggesting that tours suggesting communism
Or, Marxism. Or something. I've yet to read Das Kapital :L
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ and you are permitting them to drive, if they can afford it
user1804599
Das Kapital is a great blog.
So how do you determine if people are "able to drive"
@thecoshman lol, are you talking about bribes?
If it's exam and they pass and then after an accident they still pass, then what?
21:32
@CatPlusPlus what
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no, it's privatised...
Most accidents are caused by bad judgement, lapses of awareness, and outright stupidity, not lack of knowledge
any way, I've had enough of this
Why would a school be liable because someone failed to pay attention for a split second
and that's a statistic you just pulled out of your ass
?
21:32
Uh
it's confusing to you that I ask where you got that statistic from?
user406009
I think it's time to end this discussion.
where was the statistic?
OKAY LETS GOOGLE FOR STATISTICS BECAUSE THIS IS APPARENTLY NOT COMMON SENSE SHIT
christ
1 min ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Most accidents are caused by bad judgement, lapses of awareness, and outright stupidity, not lack of knowledge
21:33
@Lalaland elevate it
Ell
Ell
@lala I woulsnt call it a "discussion" really :L
And drunk driving is 3rd, boy that's really something you could hold a school that issued a license liable for!
> The number one cause of car accidents is not a criminal that drove drunk, sped or ran a red light. Distracted drivers are the top cause of car accidents in the U.S. today. A distracted driver is a motorist that diverts his or her attention from the road, usually to talk on a cell phone, send a text message or eat food.
lol
Have you actually read this?
Yes
That is what I'm talking about, good job
How is that a fault of the school?
21:35
And you think that a driver talking on the phone or even eating food while driving is a conscious driver?
Should they police what their alumni is doing at all times after issuing a license?
And if yes, then again, why would anyone bother running a school in these conditions
What's the possible benefit of being held liable for dumb things people do that are 100% beyond your control
Free market bitch
@CatPlusPlus Certainly some people will not listen and whatever, but you can build trust between schools and drivers. For example if you have to take a license and there's a school that has 1% of incidents between their students, then you think it's a good idea to listen carefully to what they say.
@ScottW He argues that privatised roads and licensing would be better
For someone
For some reason
It's a lolbertarian thing I think
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Uhh that's still maybe correlated but still coincidental statistic
21:37
@ScottW Driving schools should issue licenses and the state should not deal with that. That's my point.
9 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
You could take car crash statistics of who issued what and apply a fine to those private schools who cause most incidents.
This is the pearl I'm deconstructing atm
Ell
Ell
I don't really see the issue with Private licenses
Yes that's what they want
And that's better because
@Ell The issue is that it completely doesn't make sense whatsoever.
@CatPlusPlus Given that 3 of the top causes of car crashes are faults of the driver, maybe the driver should have listened with more attention or took more seriously the words of his driving school.
21:38
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Maybe he should have done but he won't and neither will his future learners.
And how is that school's fault again
They would because I strongly believe so!
Of course you can't have 0 drivers making incidents, but I'm sure that in these schools there would be an actual difference in the percentages. And a constant one too.
Ell
Ell
David freidman has good video on private law enforcement
In what "these" schools
@CatPlusPlus They didn't make that point about not driving drunk serious enough.
21:40
You already said it's the fault of the driver
fact is, private licences would never work because the schools would have a massive incentive in every way possible to cover up the truth about accidents
So why do you think that statistic is in any way caused by school
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ lol are you 5
Is it the fault of a school if a guy runs a red light?
and they wouldn't teach properly consistent standards.
idk is it? According to you it is for whatever reason
(it's not)
Ell
Ell
21:40
@Puppy like cat is saying most accidents are the fault of the driver and not the school
I don't think any accident could be proven to be directly caused by the school
It would have to be a really really really bad school
@Puppy Yes, except that inverstigation about incidents would be taken care by a company that has incentives for every school they convinct
It's how the justice system works in most countries.
And ironically likely a private one because of little oversight
user1804599
I should watch Spuiten en Slikken some more.
You have two laywers with opposite interests working against each other.
And that supposedly yields "the truth".
21:42
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Uhhhh
@Ell They are now. Because we have a system of public licences where the teacher must meet a shitload of standards.
Does it work every time? Absolutely no, lol.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Well, it's not really at all.
the Crown Prosecution Service do not get a bonus for throwing people in jail.
The system is deliberately designed in a way that makes people involved have least incentive in convicting people
Judges are impartial and independent
@Puppy The two lawyers get bonuses either immediately or in the long run (with reputation) depending on how many wins they have.
21:43
defence lawyers are paid by the state and not the defendant in most cases as well so they have no incentive either way.
Ell
Ell
Thhere would stil be driving stabdards
And "the truth" is based on evidence and assertions coming from that
Ell
Ell
Insurers aren't going to insure a terrible terrible driver
@Puppy lol are you serious
Oh here we go with free market again
21:44
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes, I'm serious.
Yes, free market is the whole point.
And if nobody insures a driver then what
I know that we don't live in the same country
@Puppy Defendants have incentives to win the case.
No matter what country you live in.
Uh obviously
21:44
yeah, but the defendants lawyers don't.
Both sides have incentives to win the case
mostly.
That's really obvious thing
@Puppy Sorry, with "defendants" I meant "defendant lawyers".
And not at all what you said earlier
Ell
Ell
21:45
@cat then the driver doesn't get to drive
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Well, then you're wrong.
because
Ell
Ell
I'm sure most people don't want to drive on a road that allows uninsured drivers
we have a rule that states that defence lawyers must take basically any case that comes to them.
21:45
Are you peraphs being pedantic about something or am I missing something?
@Ell How simple
it's called the Taxi Rank rule.
@Puppy Yes, so?
so it's literally impossible for a defence lawyer to pick cases that he has a good chance of winning.
so the statistical evidence of a given win rate is meaningless.
@Puppy Yeah, so?
21:46
you could easily end up with 100 cases in a row where the guy is obviously guilty.
If you can't afford a lawyer you get a random one, why would they have any incentive
"winning" that case would be getting a lighter sentence or something.
being a good lawyer is about making the most of your position, not winning the trial.
Are you both serious now?
Ell
Ell
@cat beautiful, isn't it?
and furthermore
21:47
Perfect system where every internal inconsistency can be just handwaved away
Why do you think some laywers care to make the best possible job?
Because of "justice"?
user1804599
brain in a vat would solve these problems so beautifully
that guy knows that next week he will have another case assigned to him that he can just take.
Because they go to heaven?
Why are we even talking about lawyers
Lawyers don't make any decisions
21:47
Who said they make decisions?
Who cares if you pay you lawyer a 10 billion
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ because if they're shit then nobody wants them and they make no money
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Some of them do, yes.
It doesn't affect integrity of the system at all
21:48
I expect that many of them do a good job because if you do a shitty job you get sanctioned by the Bar, and that's a pretty painful way to go.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ What, are you arguing that literally zero lawyers believe in justice?
@ScottW This happens a lot with these things
@ScottW That laywers both defending and accusing have incentives in winning the case.
because that's the only way that what I said could possibly be untrue.
Maybe "incentive" is not the word?
I don't know
Maybe it's just not relevant to anything
21:49
@ScottW Ask Puppy
No, who said it's wrong?
It's the thing I prefer the most in the justice system
8 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
@Puppy Yes, except that inverstigation about incidents would be taken care by a company that has incentives for every school they convinct
It's not bad
And anyway, you can have the justice system not be privatized and deal with faults there. I never said the justice system should be privatized.
Jails should definitely be dealt with by the state.
Except you're missing an important part of private things: nobody can force you to do these things
also
@CatPlusPlus Says who?
21:51
I'm not even sure what you're arguing for, since in this country, driving schools are businesses.
@ScottW Separation of what?
So in case of roads and schools and those dumb rules about who's liable, you wouldn't have many people that want to do that
Because why would they? There's so many more profitable and less risky things to do
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Uhhhhhh
@ScottW They're more like contractors; they work to the public requirements and specifications with public oversight.
@CatPlusPlus They would get a lot of money if that job is risky
So in your system you'd have private roads and then what, pick "volunteers" to run them?
21:52
Also you can have that the fines are dependent on the ranking of the school or whatever
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ There's no direct relation between risk and profit
And maintaining roads is p fucking expensive
That's obviously not true
so the system is ultimately public, but there's an element of privatisation there
user1804599
there is one between 4 and profit
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ What's obviously not true
21:53
@ScottW Arrests and road business would be two different things of course
user1804599
Live every day like it is your last
user1804599
i.e. kill everyone and try every harddrug ever.
Cops that deal with murders would be state. Cops that deal with car tickets would not exists and would be replaces by private officers of said roads.
(What's obviously true is that lolbertarianism is garbage)
I don't know what's confusing there
21:54
they tried that in America
turns out that the company was just bribing public officials to get contracts
2 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ There's no direct relation between risk and profit
and ticketing people who were not speeding
because it cost more to police than they got back in legal fines.
@elyse Estrogen for example? ^_^
user1804599
@Morwenn that's not a harddrug, and you can try it now.
So uh what's the incentive of running a road privately and policing them to a common law
21:55
@Puppy If that happens you go to the state and complain about. You open a court case and if they lose they get a bad reputation.
Why would anyone want to do that
@ScottW What if people don't pay the meal at your restaurant?
Again extremely risky, and not very profitable
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Right; except that is going to take forever and in the meantime, people would get in the case of driving schools, killed.
@CatPlusPlus How is running a road like the state already does "extremely risky".
21:56
even in the case of the fake tickets, those people were poor people who suffered greatly because of the fake tickets, and the company did not have enough money to actually pay them back.
@elyse Quite addictive and it does alter your body. Sounds like a hard drug to me.
Any job is "extremely risky" if you are not able to do it
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ you shoot them
so even though the company lost in court, it doesn't fucking matter because the people lost anyway.
Why would people work in fabrics and risk being crushed by machineries all day long?
21:57
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because of liability
user1804599
@Morwenn maybe.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Starting an MMO project with one person and no budget is risky and also not profitable at all
There's really no direct link between those two
user1804599
I didn't know it's addictive, but even if it is, that's not really a problem, since you have to take it for the rest of your life anyway.
jumping off a cliff with no rope or harness or anything.
There are some high risk high profit crap, but that doesn't mean that in general more risk = more profit
21:57
risk: lethal, profit: none.
@CatPlusPlus Every job has liabilities and responsabilities
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ And they're not equal
user1804599
@Puppy it might be fun.
@ScottW Shocking conclusion
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yeah, except for the jobs that people actually do, they're in line with rewards. But there's lots of jobs that people don't do because they're not in line.
21:58
@CatPlusPlus Who said they are equal?
@Puppy And these we are discussing are not necessarily "jobs that people don't do because they are not in line". Not sure what your point here is.
@ScottW You would have cards or whatever that is automatic.
I don't think this has a point because you'll just keep handwaving away every bad thing about your ~~perfect system~~ so I'm gonna go do something else
But if you don't have a car you would not pay for that fee.
And you could still take a taxi.
Please never try to run a country
21:59
You too cat, you too.

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