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sbi
8:00 PM
@KonradRudolph In fact, I am, but mostly because I can't get away from this chat. :)
 
@sbi, sorry, tracking down a bug :)
 
As for me, sitting in front of a 2 screen pages long compile error message
thankfully, this one is rather short
 
2 screen pages long you say? hmmm... I suspect.. templates.
 
sbi
@MooJuice No need to apologize for that! :)
 
lol
 
8:02 PM
src/seqan/parallel/taskdata_range.h: In constructor 'seqan::TaskData<seqan::Range<TString, TSpec> >::TaskData(TString&, seqan::TaskData<seqan::Range<TString, TSpec> >::TIterator, seqan::TaskData<seqan::Range<TString, TSpec> >::TIterator) [with TString = seqan::Segment<seqan::String<char, seqan::Alloc<void> >, seqan::InfixSegment>, TSpec = void, seqan::TaskData<seqan::Range<TString, TSpec> >::TIterator = char*]':
@MooJuice does this answer your question?
 
I just threw up a little in my mouth.
 
This one is quite harmless, only two levels of nesting …
 
fuck me
can't believe I got marine rushed
 
Oh my. I answered a question again! I just can't not do it.
0
A: Why assign a return value to a reference ?

Alf P. SteinbachWith std::string GetPath(const std::string& top); the usage std::string& f = GetPath(cw); is invalid in standard C++ (Visual C++ may incorrectly accept it), and the usage const std::string& f = GetPath(cw); is stupid. "Why would one use a reference here"? Stupidity. Incompet...

 
0
A: Why assign a return value to a reference ?

Noah RobertsYou might do something like that because your brain is malfunctioning and/or you don't understand the language. It's the only reason, really.

lol
 
8:11 PM
@Alf, do you and Noah Roberts share a flat or something?
 
@John: I think they share bums.
 
I think perhaps Noah just also knew the correct answer to this one.
 
@Alf: He did not post an answer. He posted abuse.
It's not welcome here on SO.
 
@Alf: Being correct is fine. Being an arrogant ass, quite another.
 
lolz
 
8:16 PM
He wasn't right, either.
 
I know, it's possible to answer in very impartial terms, showing why it has no benefit, and letting the reader do the important inference that this code base is not to be trusted. But that presumes an intelligent reader. I don't think that that presumption is necessarily valid on SO; to wit, senseless drive-by downvotes etc.
 
It may very well make sense to bind to a const ref, depending what the object is. Even for a string it might. You don't know that you can rely on RVO without knowing the definition of the function.
 
The arrogance just keeps on comin'.
 
So the abuse is not only rude; it's absolutely misplaced.
@JohnDibling: It might be troll night
 
@TomalakGeretkal The prime example where it makes sense is for the scope guard technique. It doesn't apply to the OP's question.
@TomalakGeretkal You're trolling.
 
8:18 PM
I think that both Alf and Noah's answers deserve a downvote
 
@DeadMG: I already gave them one.
 
RVO may be common but it's not everywhere
 
@DeadMG Why? They're correct.
 
more importantly, the user may be coding for a DLL or .lib where RVO can't be applied
where the temporary reference will therefore ellide a value he doesn't need to take
 
I wish there was an /ignore feature here.
hah, there is!
um, how do I undo it?
 
8:20 PM
@Tomalak: LOL, oops
 
found it
:)
 
so
out of the answers to that question, I downvoted three, upvoted one
lovely
 
Brings us back to our earlier discussion :P
 
SO has gone far downhill since I first joined.
I've seen this happen before.
 
Don't know why I answered that question; it's a downvote magnet.
 
8:28 PM
Start out with a few very smart people talking about what they love to do & know a lot about. At first the conversation is very civil, very helpful and tolerant of newbies, very educational to even the most experienced.
Then it reaches some critical mass. Too many newbies who know less than they think, others who take it upon themselves (for whatever reason) to insult everyone who they think know less than them.
 
John, and quickly becomes a shit-flinging session where everyone is is "retarded".
 
Most of the content then becomes a mix of incorrect or bad advice, with others being jerks to one another. Tolerant, well-reasoned discourse is abandoned in favor of e-peen waving and beating others down.
And those same ones who came on to become part of the problem are also the ones who complain the most about it, further dragging the site down.
Whenever they are confronted, they accuse others of "trolling" or being "retarded"
And nothing gets better.
 
I wonder if delaying showing people the votecount would help...
you know, so people don't just vote for the most popula
 
@JohnDibling hmm, methinks you've played this game before
 
popular*
 
8:34 PM
@Fred: are you suggesting i'm part of the problem?
 
no more than any other participant
 
@Fred: you're right though, I have. specifically twoplustwo.com
 
well
I have to admit that I started out on this site quite inexperienced in the ways of the compiler
but I would like to think that my advice is fairly reasonable now
and pretty much have everyone else to thank for that
 
@DeadMG: there's no question that there is still a lot of knowledge to be gained here.
 
I will always proffer my opinion/answer if I think it will help someone. I try to be respectful of others opinions for the most part, unless it is obvious to me that they are promoting misinformation, or just plain being moronic.
And I take my downvotes on the chin and learn from my mistakes :)
 
8:38 PM
I just split up a large cpp file into multiple h and cpp files. Fighting with include guards, circular includes, forward declarations... God how I hate the C++ "module" system!
 
I don't typically resort to any kind of insult unless the opponent is simply ignoring or not listening to arguments on the other side
 
I think most of the problem with SO is also its strength: that it attracts people who are not particularly good at thinking, like youngsters. Mostly free-associating.
 
but I do have a tendency to get caught up once I get started
 
@alf: most people are crud, anyway
 
@Fred Nurk: What do you suggest we do instead?
form some sort of invite-only group
you must be at least this nice to join?
 
8:42 PM
@DeadMG Please say "FredNurk" instead of "Fred Nurk", because otherwise I get notified ;)
 
rofl really?
 
Yes. All names starting with "Fred" will get notified.
 
oh
does that mean that you could notify everybody by doing like
 
oh wait, then you can't use the little arrow :(
 
@A @B @C
 
8:44 PM
no, it has to be at least three characters
@dea hello
 
ah
soic
 
did it work?
 
and please say @Fredo instead of @Fred Overflow, similarly :)
 
yeah
rofl
I read that as @Pedo
and I was like
hang on, I don't think that accusation is appropriate in this channel
 
I intended "Fredo" because it looked somewhat funny, but not that... :)
 
8:45 PM
@Fredn cant you get right of the space in your name?
 
@DeadMG most of the people in any invite-only group are crud, too
 
interesting
 
@fredo: why? they can just tab over to whichever of our names are appropriate
 
@FredNurk because of the little arrow symbol, it copies the space from your name, and i get notified :(
 
(yet again hurray for reinventing a chat client and interface that confuses everyone initialiy?)
 
8:48 PM
oh wait, it does not?
 
@fredo: sounds Italian
 
@FredOverflow eh? didn't when you just did it
 
sounds SCARY
 
@JohnDibling Do you want pizza or spaghetti?
 
my SCARY iterators are coming! flee for your lives!
right
I'll shut up now
 
8:49 PM
@JohnDibling Sounds like a very small person with hairy feet and a fixation for hand decoration.
 
@fredo: PIZZA
 
@JohnDibling Do you know the PIZZA programming language? Predecessor to generic Java, IIRC.
 
I ate pizza today
and probably the day before that
and yesterday
 
hand decoration? thought you were going towards "fixation for round doors to their underground homes"
 
@fredo: No, hand't heard of it.
 
8:50 PM
@FredO: That's really not a recommendation :P
 
@john: it's rather old, now
 
@FredNurk Jewelry would have been better. I was searching for a funny-sounding synonym for “ring”. Needless to say, I failed abysmally.
 
@DeadMG Oh sorry, all I can offer is Salami pizza with corn :)
 
wasn't interesting as a separate lanaguage, just "java + generics"
 
I’ll try template-related jokes next time
 
8:51 PM
@Konrad: LOL
 
I mean, I appreciate that C#'s generics can do some things that templates can't, but Java's generics are just, well, kinda poor
 
@Konrad: Now that you've explained it, I get it
 
I think that I didn't even see it
 
@KonradRudolph: ah, that was just two individuals out of the whole race :P (and not frodo)
 
the conversation randomly went from everything's crud to pizza
 
8:52 PM
I was sitting here trying to reason out what you meant. Knew it had to be LOTR-related, but couldn't make the "hand decoration" connection
 
john: same here
 
@Alf: It's not what you say, it's how you say it.
 
Apart from the missing return type for main and the slightly clunky english, what's wrong with this answer? stackoverflow.com/questions/4684873/…
 
@JohnDibling Think straight, talk straight. If you can't deal with a word like "incompetent", or "stupid", then that's your problem, not mine. I try to be generally nice, but I don't go overboard trying to accommodate men who can't deal with straight talk, sorry.
 
@CharlesBailey: Not an awful lot. His english and his code were a little clunky, but the answer as a whole seems perfectly good to me
I'm not sure that I'd upvote such an answer but it definitely doesn't deserve a downvote
@Alf: There's a difference between what you wrote and straight talk
it was needless
 
9:02 PM
@Alf: Carry on, then. I hope that whatever it is that motivates you to insult people and then pass it off as "straight talk" one day becomes resolved.
 
@CharlesBailey nothing that I see
not because it's wrong, just off-point
 
@JohnDibling Thanks! Here's some, then: exactly who are you implying that I have insulted? That implication is, effectively, a weasel-like lie.
 
The person who wrote the code that the OP posted.
 
Or the OP himself
 
@Alf: you hurt the code's feelings! (I also don't understand the claims of insults)
the only fault I saw in your answer was you didn't say why it's pointless, probably because you (like I) generally assume all competent programmers notice that immediately – unfortunately, the OP may not (though without yet having given strong indication that they're not) be in that group
well, and s/stupid/pointless/ does improve the tone
 
9:10 PM
I treat my code like a little bitch. And if it cries and begs me to refactor, it goes back in the goddamn basement.
 
it puts the const on its interface or it gets the water again
 
lol
brb, I'm going to switch to my laptop and code in bed.
 
9:26 PM
Ok, this bug is beginning to annoy me :/
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Alf, I was under the impression binding temporaries to const references saves copying and is thus a good (if sometimes unnecessary) optimization trick. You've just painted me as stupid, incompetent, and unintelligent. Thank you. Now I would still like you to explain, patiently and in layman's terms, why it is wrong.
@FredOverflow Is there one?
@FredOverflow Which arrow would that be?
 
@sbi I'm sorry, what are you referring to?
 
@sbi Rest assured, if I wanted to paint you as stupid or whatever, I would use those words. I believe in talking straight. :-) Now, all compilers have quirks, and it might be that with some compiler, binding a temp to a reference to const might be more efficient, due to needless inefficiency in other case. But no matter reference or not, the compiler has to effectively use an automatic variable, which ceases to exist at the end of the scope, and that's it.
 
sbi
@DeadMG And here I keep thinking C++ templates can do so many things C# generics cannot...
 
@sbi: They can.
 
9:35 PM
Can anyone tell how to prevent buffer overruns in code
 
Use a buffer class rather than a native array
for example if you use std::/boost::array<T, size> rather than T[size], then in debugging mode they can throw exceptions on buffer overruns
 
Lakshmi, use an existing container.
 
i'm working on a propreitary project code
 
once you have a stack trace to where the overrun occurs, it should be relatively simple to prevent the overrun itself
 
@DeadMG C++ templates can do stuff unthought of at the time they were invented. Whether that is a good thing or not I dare not say :)
 
sbi
9:36 PM
@FredOverflow Click the arrow to the left of my reply and it will take you to what I replied to.
 
@FredO: lol :)
 
So the buffer already exists?
 
Templates are great, the only thing the competition has to offer is runtime instantiation
 
yes,...
 
@sbi Ah, the nonexistent module system of C++. God I still hate it!
 
9:37 PM
also buffer overrun error is seen on returning from a function
 
@Lakshmi: Proprietary means the result is owned by someone, not that you can't use free libraries and headers in it
@FredO: Totally agreed
@FredO: Of course, if you disapprove of buffer overruns, you could help me write my own module system
 
You could write a class that encapsulates access to the buffer, if it already exists.
 
@DeadMG What do buffer overruns have to do with modules?
 
i mean there are hundreds of files in the project. So changing the whole code is not acceptable
 
among other things that I have in mind for DeadMG's Personal Customized Language Attempt
 
sbi
9:38 PM
@AlfPSteinbach You said, whoever write such code is stupid and incompetent. And whoever doesn't get it by reading your answer isn't an intelligent reader. That does mean me.
 
@FredO: Nothing, I'm just participating in two unrelated conversations at once
 
sbi
And you still haven't explained why it is wrong, at least not in a way I can understand.
 
Lakshmi, so write a class that takes the buffer by reference. Access the buffer through the class.
 
@DeadMG Plus this meta-discussion is 3 already!
 
The class can then perform bounds checking and other fun things
 
9:39 PM
@FredO: 3 what?
 
@DeadMG trains of thought
 
sbi
(afk)
 
i do not even know which buffer creates the error
 
@FredO: Right. We have, buffer overruns, Alf is insulting, and lack of modules
 
In which module is there an insult overflow?
2
 
9:40 PM
lol
 
are there any good tools that i can use to see where buffer over run occurs
 
yeah, lakshmi, it's called a debugger
most IDEs come with one
 
do u mean visual studio debugger?
 
On SO, every module has an insult overflow.
 
yes
@FredO: I still think that if you disapprove of C++'s modules, you should write your own
 
9:41 PM
@DeadMG My own what? C++?
 
how can i find out the exact buffer that generates buffer overrun? using call stack i could think of a module where there might be error
 
@FredO: That's what I'm doing
 
@DeadMG I once wrote my own assembly language, that was complicated enough :)
 
@Lakshmi: If you don't know which buffer is overrunning, how do you know the problem is caused by buffer overrun?
@FredO: Ah, but your own C++ will be so much simpler because you can cut every part you don't like
 
@DeadMG But C# and D already exist ;)
 
9:43 PM
a window is shown mentioning the buffer over run occured
 
@FredO: Oh come on, they're not real C++ successors
 
Oh, the helpful window that says "error! But I can't say where "?
 
@DeadMG Is your own language just in specification form, or are you developing a working compiler?
 
@sbi All that is fixed by you buying a round of beers if we should meet.
 
@FredO: Technically speaking, I'm currently developing a working compiler
 
9:43 PM
@DeadMG But they got rid of a lot of stupid C++ stuff.
 
@FredO: However, the speed is uh, well
@FredO: Yeah, but that only counts if you keep the useful stuff
 
@DeadMG D has templates. What else do we need? :)
 
like non-enforced garbage collection
or compatibility with existing code
 
In fact, my impression of D is that its meta-programming facilities far supersede C++'s.
 
or a Standard library that isn't in two pieces
 
9:45 PM
@DeadMG Are D classes always GC'd?
 
sure
yes
 
Well then just use structs ;)
 
pretty sure D doesn't have them
 
D has class and struct
 
but can you take references to structs?
and allocate them on the heap?
 
9:46 PM
when debugging code, a window popped upo showing "a buffer overrun has occured in ulfm.exe which has corrupted the programs internal state"
 
Damn. I thought I had all afternoon to get work done. Outlook informs me I have a meeting in 15 minutes. :|
 
@DeadMG I'm not sure, haven't programmed in D for years.
 
for example
D has both delegates and lambdas, from memory
 
@DeadMG What's the syntax for lambdas?
 
no idea
my friend tried D recently and bitched about it incessantly and that was one of his complaints
 
9:49 PM
There's a new Channel 9 video: "E2E: Herb Sutter and Erik Meijer - Perspectives on C++." I haven't watched it yet, but it looks potentially interesting.
 
@JamesMcNellis thanks for the link!!!
 
I think the rationale for whether a feature ended up in D is "is the feature on Walter Bright's list of favorite language idioms and paradigms?"
 
That's just it
That's why I hate Java with a passion
because Java programs look like James Gosling's idea of a program
and that's pretty much it
not what I think my program should look like
 
Java looks like C++ done wrong
 
@DeadMG So your own programming language won't have features you like best? Come on ;)
 
9:51 PM
heh FredO
 
and that’s already pretty hard
 
of course it will
but what I won't do is cut features just because I don't like them
take const, for example
 
can anyone tell why I see the window saying when debugging code, a window popped upo showing "a buffer overrun has occured in ulfm.exe which has corrupted the programs internal state"
 
given the recent content in this channel, you probably already guessed that I hate const
 
@DeadMG So it will be completely cluttered with competing features? ;)
 
9:51 PM
but I'm not going to cut it
I'm not afraid of cutting things- that's one of the most important things to do when devising a language to replace C++
 
@DeadMG So what exactly did you cut?
 
well since it's not finished yet, I haven't technically cut anything
but the list looks something a little like
 
@DeadMG So what you have now is a slow C++ clone? :)
 
array->pointer conversion
I cut function declarations in the middle of code
along with declarations in general, really
 
@DeadMG Ah, so no more most vexing parses? That's nice!
 
9:54 PM
uh
you know that this thing is only like, 1000 lines into development, right?
 
@DeadMG No, you did not say.
 
well, I said that I was making it
not that it was anywhere near done
or indeed progressing towards completion at a significant speed
 
Sounds like the SPECS programming language
 
@DeadMG You didn't reveal the most important information yet: what's the name of your programming language? :)
 
WideC
oh
 
9:55 PM
PhatC
 
many of the things that I "cut" are not technically cut features, but more like, cut concepts
 
If I ever make a C clone, I will call it OIC. ("Oh, I see", get it?)
 
like how in C++, you can't overload sizeof(), static_cast, etc
you can't create your own covariance
 
@FredOverflow LOL
 
@FredOverflow No, I don't get it. Please explain. ;-)
 
9:56 PM
Walter Bright and Andrei Alexandrescu are busy finishing the details of D. It's meant as a successor to C++. In spite of them being who they are, they haven't succeeded in making D a popular language.
 
You could call it D-Flat
 
you can't create your own const
 
@FredOverflow Totally.
 
oh
I cut things like
typedef struct {} name;
 
I suppose there's kind of a catch 22 problem with D: many people/companies won't use it until there is good tooling for it, but people/companies aren't going to invest time and money into building tools if there are no user base.
 
9:58 PM
@DeadMG You could clone Prolog and cut the cut ;)
 
ugh PROLOG
I have PROLOG coursework to do
and would really rather not
to be honest
 

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