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08:00
champagne gold
@BartekBanachewicz lol
(y)
I want them to come out with a gun metal grey
Cinch it is a bionformatics project that I have to work on with a lady and I have to provide her with an API layer for use with Python since she is still learning Python.
@MoonOwlPrince Then why don't you use Python?
08:01
Because I was instructed to use C++.
It is not my choice.
@Prismatic the 2013 mac pro is pretty much a gun barrel with gun metal grey
s/instructed/misled/
@MoonOwlPrince Uh... That wasn't what you asked us
@MoonOwlPrince What kind of API?
user1804599
Maybe I should make it expand a : b c to a (b c).
08:02
Like you need to read in Python?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks!
@rightfold what?
Reading and writing
And I have to go through the hardware's documentation
@MoonOwlPrince "Writing in Python" you need to generate Python code too?
08:03
is anyone buying a laptop?
Calling a C++ function to write to a device
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Space Silver and Gold.
And reading to a device
@MoonOwlPrince Like I said, you're not being very specific
The jazz is in the driver libraries I have to work with
08:04
@MoonOwlPrince Okay so... and you need to expose this to Python?
@MoonOwlPrince Boost.Python.
Bind your functions and/or objects somehow using Boost.Python.
@BartekBanachewicz hey, I'm asking because you have some experience with gl and you might have seen something similar before. I'm drawing a trivial triangle and calling glViewport when the window resizes. I get this jitter but I don't really understand why. Any thoughts?

http://a.pomf.se/ybfkfc.webm
But I feel she could be writing her entire project in C++.
08:07
@MoonOwlPrince ...Why would you want to pressure a scientist to write C++?
They don't need it and they usually don't use C++
Perl, Ruby, Python are the usuals from what I hear.
It would make life easier
@Prismatic you're upsetting this hotels filters with that link
I should look to upgrade my dev work to C++14...
@thecoshman Its a spam-free file hoster. I uploaded a < 1mb webm clip... letsee if I can stash it somewhere else
@MoonOwlPrince And whose life are you supposed to be making easier?
@thecoshman Is there support for C++14 yet on all significant platforms? I don't think Android has official C++14 support yet.
@Prismatic oh, video
balls to that
@Cinch I'm not targeting Android
08:11
@Prismatic uhm...... vsync?
@Cinch no
Visual C++...
@thecoshman Even so.
@Cinch that would be called tearing
@thecoshman i no no thing
08:12
@Prismatic Convert to gif, upload to imgur?
@Cinch hers. She is learning Python but could just learn C++ instead with enough time and dedication
@Cinch let me rephrase, the platforms I care support C++14
@MoonOwlPrince C++ is NOT an easy language to learn.
@Cinch It is a good one to start with, though.
@MoonOwlPrince She cannot learn c++ as fast as python
08:12
@Griwes NO.
What is wrong with you?
@Cinch Yes.
All she needs is time.
@Cinch sure it is :P
You're thinking, "C++ is as simple as my grandma learning move semantics!"
She is very intelligent
08:13
It teaches you almost every of the most important aspects of programming.
@Cinch No.
@Griwes Doesn't mean you learn it fast.
@MoonOwlPrince Yeah like 1 year
is that link banned too
@Cinch C++ is good to start with because it's complex.
Well it is a worthy investment
The first language should not be easy
08:13
@Griwes Which is why I've chosen it first but it's not the best for a complete newbie to learn
@MoonOwlPrince Not really if you are in science field
@MoonOwlPrince What.
What are you even doing?
Is this your CS partner or a researcher/
@Prismatic yeah, that looks like vsync issues and or buffering
She is a researcher
Its not vsync
08:14
@MoonOwlPrince Reserachers DO NOT really use C++.
@MoonOwlPrince first language should probably be functional
@thecoshman ^this
Or the first language should be Python
As in Haskell?
@thecoshman I still don't know any functional language
@MoonOwlPrince Can be doesn't have to be.
@khajvah It's natural to learn as a beginner.
@khajvah Hooks onto math experience pretty well
08:15
Python does not count as a functional language
@MoonOwlPrince So? Python is definitely easier than C++
@MoonOwlPrince Haskell is a functional language
@Cinch I am learning C right now. Is it natural?
@khajvah C is small. Not exactly natural, but good to learn.
08:16
I am not disputing that. I am disputing the claim that Python is.
@khajvah don't learn C
@thecoshman Why not?
C is natural if you learn it
> C++ is a difficult language. There are others that are easier to learn. I would never argue about that.
Python is an odd language to learn... it has some funky things
08:16
@Cinch C is a terrible choice for a beginner.
She could be using Java for all I care
@MoonOwlPrince You don't get it. I have been in C++ class for the past semester where they teach it to newbies right after C and it is not easy
@khajvah you only need to know C if you need to work in C
@Cinch Yes?
@Griwes C was good enough for our university students.
08:17
@thecoshman Eventually, I want to do kernel development
@Cinch NO
@Griwes Dude that what he said.
@Cinch bad teachers does not mean it is a hard subject
@khajvah learn to be a good programmer first
@Griwes You can't refute experience. People who took it said it was easier than C++.
@Cinch C is an absolutely terrible language to begin with.
08:17
@Griwes Agreed.
@Cinch and eating shit is good enough for rabbits vOv
I never said it should be learned, but it is easier than C++ to learn.
@Cinch Doesn't matter. They are beginners. They know nothing.
Ask them in 40 years, if they manage to be devs for that long.
@thecoshman Well, one doesn't hurt the other.
@Cinch C++ is a good pruning tool in university. At ours they use C++ and Haskell to do that.
08:18
> Learning difficulty doesn't matter for beginners
@khajvah yes it does
@thecoshman How?
@MoonOwlPrince Mmmm.... Not with our terrible curriculum and professors
@Cinch I don't know what you are trying to prove.
C++ is a good choice for a first language. C is absolutely not.
@Griwes C++ should not be taught as an absolute first language.
08:18
C++ is a very fine language
Most of the "beginner languages" also are not good to start with.
@Cinch wat
@khajvah C cripples you into writing hacky code
@Prismatic there's a delay between projection update and the resize
C offers no abstractions whatsoever.
@Griwes What I mean is that C++ is good to learn after you've dipped into code a bit already.
08:19
People starting with C will never understand the need for metaprogramming, generic functions and stuff like that.
there's a visible resize, and after that the projection recalcs
@Cinch that's nonsense
@Cinch bullshit.
@Griwes It is good to learn how to abstract yourself.
@BartekBanachewicz Bullshit? This is my story, man.
08:20
@Cinch Why is no one mentioning C# as a first language if the goal is to get people credits.
@Cinch then you already know what I think about your story.
@khajvah The thing is, the majority of people who started on C level never get up.
My very first langauge I ever looked at was HTML.
They stay on that level and never learn any abstractions.
And then I went onto Java
08:20
@Griwes Yeah, I agree C is terrible for the first language
@Cinch lel, mentioning HTML in a programming language discussion.
@Cinch yeah that's sad enough spare us the details.
And then I spent about a month reading about which language to learn
also what griwes said
After much research I decided on learning C++
08:21
lol sucky research then
Well, but C demystifies a lot of magic.
@MoonOwlPrince It does.
@Griwes well... to be fair, learning HTML, to a basic level, can be good to teach the very beginner the concept of syntax and how to abstract stff
I don't think C++ is appropriate for beginners; they will not understand why the hell you need abstractions until you show it to them naturally in a way that makes sense.
@thecoshman That's exactly what I mean.
The goal of a first language should be to demystify magic NOT to get people deploying Python apps on Android lol
08:22
@Cinch bullcrap.
I was part of teaching literal 10-13 year olds programming for the first time and we used JavaScript.
@MoonOwlPrince \o/
@thecoshman Ugh, I wholeheartedly disagree. :P
55
A: Check if something is not in a list in Python

orlpThe bug is probably somewhere else in your code, because it should work fine: >>> 3 not in [2, 3, 4] False >>> 3 not in [4, 5, 6] True Or with tuples: >>> (2, 3) not in [(2, 3), (5, 6), (9, 1)] False >>> (2, 3) not in [(2, 7), (7, 3), "hi"] True

@Cinch lel
We were paid to do this, and we had to make the learning sweet.
Nevertheless we succeeded.
08:23
probably the most undeserved 550 reputation
See, here's the problem.
People learning programing for the first time should see segmentation faults and learn to write code that is correct
@MoonOwlPrince Holy shit, no. Do you know how much time I lost looking at segfaults?
C and C++ teach you to be responsible
People are lured into some languages are lured by "you'll have an app in an hour!".
08:23
Look at my earliest stuff on this.
@MoonOwlPrince No, C and C++ tell you to stay the fuck away from programming.
My earlier questions on SO was when I was first learning C++
Then they expect that ALL of programming will always be trivial.
I literally spent weeks on getting wxWidgets just to link and run.
That they will copy-paste some code and they have "their" app right there.
Which is bullshit, and making people think that is what will one day lead to a catastrophe (a literal, real world one).
08:24
@Griwes with what part exactly?
@Griwes Most people will not have to program low level stuff
In fact, most programmers are not C++ programmers
@Cinch most programmers aren't even programmers
@thecoshman People should stay away from HTML for as long as possible. :P
@Griwes Dude, when did YOU start learning code?
Should I throw on move semantics and smart pointers to a 12-year old me?
@orlp They should get into writing their own data structures and implementing their own algorithms especially if they are doing CS or SE. If they just want an app in the app stores they should go take up a double major in Economics and Management instead
08:25
No! Because the meaning and use for such things do not exist yet!
@Cinch So you are saying that it's impossible to create a catastrophe when writing high-level code? When writing haskell or whatever else?
@Cinch yes
@Griwes Then you're an idiot and clearly don't understand the progression of learning.
My path was kinda painful, but thanks to that I know what to tell people NOT to do. :P
@Cinch lel
I understand it better than you, I suppose.
@MoonOwlPrince No, they should first learn basic programming workflow. Otherwise they'll be trying to learn your 'data structures', but get stuck on syntax errors every 5 minutes.
@Griwes why? of course it's got it flaws, but it can serve as a very good tool to show you how the text you write has to conform a certain syntax and how it can be translated into a graphical form. You could through in CSS and use that to explain the separation of concerns.
08:26
@orlp agreed.
@thecoshman agreed.
@Griwes I'm sorry, what teaching experience do you have?
@thecoshman "It got its flaws" erm no, it's absolutely terrible.
@Cinch Ah, here we go again.
They should experience that
Excuse the "ad hominem" argument but I don't believe your credability.
ITT Cinch schools Griwes
@Griwes What have you done?
08:27
Tip: teaching karate doesn't give you programming teaching experience.
Shut up.
:DDD
@Cinch lel
@MoonOwlPrince good lord no! the last thing you want to do it waste god knows how long reinventing the wheel
@Griwes besides the point
@Cinch How many talks did you give/are scheduled to give?
Think of learning to drive. Why is it considered better to learn to drive manual transmission cars first rather than automatic transmission cars.
08:28
Cinch gives C++ talks?! The end has begun.
@thecoshman Maybe. I just always fear that showing it to people makes them like it, or worse, to like XML and revere it.
@Griwes You're not answering my question. I'm, of course, not a formal lecturer, but I have taught semi-formal classes and done small-squad training.
@MoonOwlPrince "Learning this was really painful for me, so others should feel the same pain. Otherwise how can I know they're learning something"
It's a high-school level but what do you expect?
@Cicada No, it was a silly argument that followed his silly argument.
@Cinch So... it's absolutely irrelevant. :D
user1804599
08:29
@orlp TIL about Bloom filters.
@Griwes o_0 yes... there is shit out there. The last thing you want to do is trick people into thinking it's any other way.
@rightfold really?
@Griwes No, I feel it is completely relevant and I feel qualified about how to learn C++ because I just did it a year ago AND I'm still learning AND I'm surrounded by people who are also learning AND I know their problems because I work with them on a weekly basis AND I still actively program.
2
@thecoshman You are forgetting these people are learning computer science NOT how to get an Android app in the store.
@rightfold they're pretty important in some fields
user1804599
08:30
Why would I lie?
@rightfold do you live under a rock
@thecoshman I just want to protect them from Stockholm syndrome!
Fuck, first lesson, troll them, have them spend hours writing assembly
@rightfold mostly 'big data'
@rightfold Why would anyone lie on the Internet?
AND I've done tutoring sessions for C and C++ already AND I get good grades in C++ class (not that it's worth anything but I'm trying to argumentatively crush you here, sorry)
@Cinch The only people who should be allowed to talk about teaching things are the people who had learned them 10-12 years before and can now see the long-term results.
Ven
Ven
lol hurd
@MoonOwlPrince first step, learn what is out there. Then learn to see it's strengths and weaknesses. Then maybe start to think ow it could be done better.
@Cinch your argument are absurdly invalid.
If you are still learning, that means you still know nothing.
08:31
@Cicada yes, yes he does.
@Griwes That's not an argument, that's the support for the argument.
> using grades in C++ class to assess your level
> (not that it's worth anything but I'm trying to argumentatively crush you here, sorry)
I would grade the prof if I could
With a big fat 0
we have seen your tutorials :P
08:32
@Cinch Well tough luck, it made your argument even more invalid.
@thecoshman AND I come on here to get reviewed by you fucking amazing people too and happily change my shit if it needs to be done!
Something challenging along the lines of SICP or CS50 should be in a CS 101 class
How can one be so bad at arguing
This would be more enjoyable for students, I believe
@rightfold why did you change your name from your russian translation
08:32
lel, come crush me again when you've had your first talk accepted.
@Cicada hot was he?
@Griwes uh... If you're not still learning, that means you know nothing
oh wait, that wasn't a 'D'
@MoonOwlPrince I strongly disagree
CS 101 shouldn't contain anything challenging
(I'm not trying to boast here or anything, but you have to answer silly arguments with silliness.)
08:33
I'm still learning. I'm pretty sure I know something
@orlp Why?
@Griwes How is my argument invalid?
education right now focuses way too much on the 'difficult stuff', but the students can't even get their basic shit straight
Protip: CS 101 and other courses denominations don't mean anything to the world outside of USA
they never teach the basic shit
08:33
You've only proposed your own personal opinion and bias.
@jalf lies! you know nothing!
@jalf Okay, I might've misrepresented my opinion.
they never teach how to interpret syntax errors
@orlp exactly!
they never teach how a computer will do exactly, and only exactly what you tell it to
08:33
@thecoshman I know! And therefore I know something so I don't know nothing!
@orlp YES!
who cares if you know what a bloom filter is
@Cicada just that Americans have an odd idea idea of where to start.
if you can't write fizzbuzz
@Cinch It's an argument from authority... where the authority is you. lol
08:34
@orlp someone who wants a bloom filter :\
@Griwes Well let's go into real evidence then.
@jalf Good job for not taking the bait.
@Griwes Isn't that what your argument is? "I know how I learned, and therefore I know how others should learn"?
@Cinch Yeah, I'm waiting for it.
@MoonOwlPrince a big problem right now is that 'CS' is being used as a substitute for a 'software engineering' degree
08:35
What are we arguing again? Whether or not programmers should start with HTML?
@jalf you are glossing over his vast experience with being a begginer
@jalf No, "I'm a little further in the learning process than you, hence I have a wider view on it".
an academic CS course is interesting, and gives you a lot of reference framework to broaden your knowledge
but you can easily pass it and know jack shit about building software
Fuck, where are the languages?
@orlp What differentiates between a software engineer and a software developer who knows CS
08:36
there is literally no formal research on this
@jalf no... I'm not sure any more...
Somebody needs to do a survey on the initial learning difficulty of programming languages at the beginning level.
Americans best country EU
@MoonOwlPrince that one knows CS, and has a wider reference framework, and the other one doesn't?
Initial learning difficulty itself means nothing.
08:36
@MoonOwlPrince the real important point I'm trying to make here is a non-software developer who knows CS
>
Initial learning difficulty itself means nothing.
@jalf No, whether @Cinch is the best C++ teacher or not.
@Griwes it kinda does. In fairly obvious ways, I should think
Pointless debate alert
@Griwes By which you mean, whether he's a better C++ teacher than you?
08:37
@Griwes No, it's whether C++ is a great language to begin with.
@jalf Well, let me disagree with you completely and continue discussing this with Cinch.
@Cinch C++ is a terrible language to begin with.
@Griwes which would mean any language can be the good first language... which no one has ever really said.
Would you use C# for an intro to programming class?
@orlp THIS IS WHAT I'M ARGUING!
08:38
@Cicada aka Lounge<debate>
@Griwes you're losing your time btw hth
The workflow is totally unintuitive, and there's a noobtrap every other line.
> in itself
Okay guys
it's a factor, but it's meaningless without the other ones.
08:38
@MoonOwlPrince I would argue that Python is one of the best if not the best educational programming languages
//////////

IS C++ A GOOD LANGUAGE FOR BEGINNERS? THE DEBATE

//////////
In your position I would just agree with the retards counter party and leave the debate at that. The end.
Believe in my long experience.
@orlp Ugh. It gives you early rewards, and then you think everything comes that easily.
@orlp What is wrong with C#?
I say C++ is a bad language to start off with because it is way too complex in concepts and syntax for beginners.
08:39
@Cicada lel
@MoonOwlPrince it's more complex
@Cinch No, it's not.
Move semantics? Memory addresses? Templates? All meaningless to the beginning programmer.
@Griwes and then you'll learn that not everything is easy...
But w/e, keep rereading DevSolar's answer. vOv
08:39
who cares?
@Cinch Sure.
Look at all these nerds ruining my lounge with their arguments
They cannot even comprehend linking and compiling for goodness sakes.
@Cinch /cc @Rapptz
That's why you don't teach those to beginners.
08:39
I think the point we are all missing here is not every feature is taught in a CS101 class
@Cinch not really... it can be complex, but keep away from features that you do not have to use and slowly build up the exposure, it could be a fine language
@Cinch Well, maybe you don't.
@Griwes Guess what's integral to C++? Linking and compiling!
@Cinch Most of people I've met didn't have problems with that stage.
08:40
step 1 is learning simple programming constructs like loops, variables, functions, and running a program, and reading error messages
Only a subset is taught to the students
Python is perfect for step 1
afterwards you can move to other langauges
The fact that CPP/H files are split is a partial consequence and cause of the compiling process and format.
So... yeah. Now you can see why I'm so negative towards you, @Cinch.
but if you try to teach step 1 in C++ you'll have to cover a lot of irrelevant material that distracts from what you're trying to teach
08:40
@Cinch something that is not that hard to teach around
@orlp It's terrible at that :/
@Griwes elaborate
You can teach a subset of C++ and ignore the rest
@Griwes They have problems with errors like "expected primary-expression here"
We're all learning so much now /cc @LucDanton
user1804599
08:41
Good thing people have lots of free time to learn the basics, so the time in class can be spent on more important concepts.
As it is right now, let's create a bucket list
@Cicada pls no
I'll repost this at the end and collect Grives' arguments too.
@rightfold the basics are the most important concepts
@orlp Most of people starting with Python will forever stay with Python, and also be crappy at that.
08:41
You want to teach students in a manner that allows them to pick up any other language easily
@Cinch Please at least don't deform nicks.
@rightfold like facebook
@Griwes that doesn't explain why Python is terrible for teaching step 1
@LucDanton Did you know? The fact that CPP/H files are split is a partial consequence and cause of the compiling process and format.
@Griwes the same can be said for most languages
08:42
@thecoshman But not about C++! Which means C++ is better at that. :P
user1804599
The basics are for noobs.
user1804599
I hate noobs.
2
@Griwes So what's the best first language for you?
we're all a noob at some point
that's education for you
@khajvah C++.
08:42
@orlp Demystifying the magic <-- is it important at all for a CS101 class
I'd posit that the majority of 'programmers' know one language, which is almost certainly the first language they learned.
@MoonOwlPrince no
@MoonOwlPrince first they must be aware that the magic even exists
@orlp For some people being noob is more a long line than just a point though
@orlp There's no magic.
you can't 'demystify' Pythons pointer semantics, if they don't even fucking know what a variable is
08:43
If you teach people there's magic, they'll never be Real Programmers.
verbibols
where is @LightningRacisinObrit when we need it
@Cicada like a brown smear?
@Cicada hah
you can't talk about tail-call-optimization, when they don't know what return means
1) C++ is a bad language to learn because it requires too much to start with: you need to teach compiling first as well as the split in source files to begin. This is too hefty. You also need to teach them the C-style syntax and many, many different data
08:43
@Griwes You cannot teach about pointers and memory management to a beginner. It just scares away.
types and structures. C++ classes will also tend to pounce on inheritance, composition, and encapsulation--high-level concepts that don't make sense to beginners, as they solve problems that result from poorly-organized or poorly-writtne programs.
@khajvah And I wouldn't.
@Griwes I always wave my wand before I compile, just to ensure it works.
C++ is sweet for this, because it offers so much. You can program on multiple levels.
Add in the low-level C-style pointers, memory management, and and entirety of C itself, and we already have two different major ways to do the same thing.
@Griwes No, the point is that they have TOO much choice.
08:44
@orlp At our uni there is a light class for people who never learnt programming at all but want to enrol for CS101. By the time they get to CS101 they are on par with everyone else and Haskell and C++ are presented to them
Which one is right for which level? This comes from experience!
@Cinch They do not.
The teacher has.
@Cinch and yet you chose to write your first tutorial on C++.
@MoonOwlPrince then everyone is subpar
@bluefog Because it is the language I'm learning and I wish there was more material on it online.
I wanted to make an effort to teach what the classes and the tutorials don't teach.
08:45
@Cinch Yes. Which is why all CS101 courses should start with a vector of strings.
@Griwes If you are teaching high level stuff, how is python bad ?
@MoonOwlPrince it's simply a measurable fact that most people graduating from a CS bachelor can't write fizzbuzz
I mean real strings, so std::string.
you can argue away everything you want
but that's a clear failure of education in my book
@Griwes The first question you'll get asked is "What is a string? a ball of yarn?"
08:45
@khajvah It might sound wrong, but... it's too easy.
@Cinch the presence of bad classes does not make the subject bad.
@orlp LOL! That is the worst joke I have read all year so far
@Cinch If someone asked a question in that way, I'd fail him on the spot. vOv
@MoonOwlPrince ...Not too far off from the truth at my 4-year.
@Griwes You don't get it. We're talking about complete beginners.
They know NOTHING.
@Cinch I'm so meta even this acronym?
08:46
@Cinch yes. I'd still do that.
Strings are "sequences of characters"
How the heck do you even get to second year then if you can't do fizzbuzz
user1804599
@orlp So?
@Cinch this is why you shouldn't be a teacher. Yes there are other ways, but as the teacher you should pick the most appropriate one to teach them. Don't hide the fact that their are other ways, but don't overload their knowledge.
user1804599
Many are past that point, and I don't hate those.
08:46
@Cinch no
That's C strings.
@Griwes ...........
A.k.a. the most terrible invention just after the null pointer ever made.
@thecoshman I've taught things before, you know.
Morning
@Cinch ...yeah, karate. lol
08:47
The best way to teach beginners, in my experience, is to give them a clear progression path with measurable reflections of skill.
@Cinch ... so?
@Griwes I've also taught military-style drill.
@Griwes Easy language is good for beginners. They should see results as fast as possible. It is better to have students who think "We can easily do a lot of cool stuff", than "This shit is only for geeks, I don't understand shit"
@Cinch HAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
@Griwes ...
08:48
hm, I have a deja-vu
@khajvah No, I don't want people thinking programming is easy doing programming.
2
You don't understand what that means, then.
@Cinch yes... not showing them three ways of doing the same thing
Because the truth is, programming is terribly hard.
@Griwes 12 years old kids should think programming is cool.
08:48
@thecoshman Yes! I think C++ has too many ways to do this in a timely fashion while exposing core concepts cleanly.
@khajvah Sure. At the same time they should not believe it's easy.
@khajvah I agree, I want larger interest in CS.
I hate webdev
@Griwes I want it easier to learn because it's do hard to do.
@Cinch If you are the teacher, you choose the concepts to teach. Not the language.
08:49
Everything is so brittle and fragile and ephemeral
@Cinch ... not at all. if you are a good teacher, you simply don't get side tracked with shit like operator overloading and templates just because you are teaching them how to multiply two ints.
@Griwes If they can't do anything more than "a+b" in programming, they won't be interested
@Griwes I think C++ is too esoteric in concepts and syntax for beginners. The concepts are too far removed
@Cinch I want it hard to learn, so people who are completely incapable of real programming don't stick writing terrible code.
@Griwes programming is hard, but programming is hard for beginners for the wrong reasons
08:49
There should be a quick result
@Cinch not at all
@Cinch lel
@Cinch no
@thecoshman Except this is what people DO. And much code always encounters these and so they will invariably counter this even as a beginner, like I did.
@orlp Programming isn't "hard for beginners"; programming is hard, period.
08:50
I do not want someone who can't learn C++ or Haskell writing anything that puts anyone's lives at risk
@Griwes now this is just nonsense. ad programmers are going to be bad
beginners struggle with trivialities like syntax errors, compiling, linking, segfaults, because they're not properly explained
@MoonOwlPrince YES THANK YOU
@orlp Exactly!
they never get to the actual hard problems
08:50
Please stop crapping on my starboard thank you.
@Cinch ffs don't make say this again. Bad teachers does not make the subject bad!
@orlp :x
@orlp exactly! Syntax and compiling and linking and segfaults should not be what stops people from learning!
If they can't grasp that by themselves, they shouldn't be doing this.
@Griwes it's not obvious
08:51
@MoonOwlPrince That doesn't mean that they should learn C++ as the first language, AT ALL.
@MoonOwlPrince but you're fine putting your life in the hands of some Java fool?
I want the language as transparent as possible so I can teach concepts!
they're not stupid for grasping it themselves
@orlp Yeah no, it is.
no, you've been doing this for years
08:51
You should write a book, Cinch. If I may suggest a title - "Programming for morons".
Cinch and teaching again
there is nothing obvious about seeing the worlds "segmentation fault" on your screen, and knowing what your next step should be
@khajvah Yes, it does. It would throw the terrible ones away.
@orlp "Fire up gdb."
Okay I'm outta here
08:52
Programming is the easy part. Problem solving is the hard part. It doesn't really matter what language you try to teach someone, if they can't think through problems, they will suck no matter what.
@orlp There isn't much compiled information on this.
@Griwes what's gdb?
"Then what?"
"man gdb"
Rarely do you see a big book or big tutorial on just segfaults.
(I'm simulating a beginner)
08:52
@orlp google
If someone can't grasp that, he's shit.
@Griwes It would also throw away potentially good ones
Let's simulate Cinch about 10 months ago.
@khajvah The good ones will cope.
(HI guys I want to make games and I'm learning C++)
08:52
@Cinch (fuck off)
I've gotten hello world to compile and I want to know what's next
@Griwes he's shit now
@Cinch (stop, learn C++ before trying to write games)
education should help with that
-3
Q: C++, wxWidgets, TDM-GCC compiler: undefined reference to WinMain in drive H:\?

CinchNot an undefined reference to WinMain@16!!! I'm using Code::Blocks 13.12 with TDM64 MinGW compiler. I'm trying to compile a basic wxWidgets program here, copied and pasted with the correct header and .cpp files names: http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/Adding_A_Control g:\progr\tdm-gcc\bin\..\lib\gcc\x8...

08:53
stop with the elitism
10 months ago you got Hello World to compile and now you want to teach others
HALP MEEEEE
@orlp No.
@orlp No.
you can learn programming
@Griwes nonsense. learnt to break the problem down into small steps and work your way through them.
08:53
That's my first ever SO question and it's terrible.
We are doing a hard thing. It'll always be hard.
@Griwes I am not talking about who is capable who is not. I am talking about interest. Potentially good ones may not cope just because they won't be interested. Kids are not patient
It's a compiler problem.
you're proposing a system where you only want programmers that are natural at it
Also if your CS101 students know how to segfault, you are shit at teaching.
08:54
@thecoshman I am fine putting my life in the hands of a person who can implement their own data structures in any language they learn, have hacking experience, understand CS principles and understand have the patience to write software properly
@orlp Yes.
@Griwes right. troll on hard
@Griwes WTF. I'm losing confidence in you.
@MoonOwlPrince I'd rather trust the person who doesn't think they know better and reinvents everthing
@Griwes maybe your morals differ from mine
08:55
@orlp It's not morals - I don't feel safe when I know that the majority of code out there is written by morons.
but I do not agree with a system where we disparage the disadvantaged to create an elite club of privileged people to shield off a field of knowledge
user1804599
Don't teach programming.
I want there to be lots of interest in programming. Programming is not easy, but I want it to be easy to start learning and progressing!
@thecoshman I do not need them to reinvent anything but they should be able to identify the actual problem and debug it if they find that the tools they are using a buggy
And that one day that fact can potentially kill me.
08:55
@Griwes tough luck, We can't afford to be that picky. Nor do we need to.
god, I need to work
@Griwes then don't feel safe
the majority of code out there is bugged
user1804599
To do it in a reasonable time span you'd have to spend like sixty hours per week doing it.
I should stop shitposting here
written by that 'elite' group of yours
08:56
@MoonOwlPrince which has nothing to do with how easy they learn a language, it's a problem solving skill.
@Griwes "Let me disagree with you and continue discussing with someone who agrees with you, but who I feel I can intimidate with my superior experience"
@orlp Go look through thedailywtf. The majority of code is on the level of the shit that gets posted there :F
Lounge Debating techniques 101
@thecoshman But I want them to be excellent programmers first before we start identifying their excellent problem solving skills.
@Griwes so we need better education, that helps prevent those errors
08:57
@jalf No, you are just utter shit at debates (not to mean that I ain't).
@orlp No, it doesn't.
@MoonOwlPrince Programming is the easy part, problem solving is the hard part
there' something wrong with Unity's programming model
@thecoshman Except programming is the hard part for non-programmers.
@Griwes you sincerely believe that you can solve all buggy software by educating less programmers, in the hope the worse programmers go away?
@MoonOwlPrince you can't be an excellent programmer if you can't solve problems
08:57
they force you to write O(n^4) functions
@Griwes yeah @jalf, how dare you come forward with points that hare hard to argue with.
you think magically the demand for software will go down, if we do not teach the 'non-natural' programmers?
@orlp With less programmers, there'll be less software to have bugs in it. :P
"each object can have a number of subobjects and each subobject can have a number of renderers, you need to set them all if you want things to work"
@Griwes that's bullshit
08:58
@BartekBanachewicz You nailed it! Which explains why first languages should not be easy
there will never be less programmers
user1804599
No, there will be programmers spending more time writing buggy programs.
@Cinch no, it's a small hurdle. Problem solving is the key skill
also what the fuck does "I'm qualified about how to learn something"
the amount of programmers is only determined by the amount of software that needs to be written
08:58
are you a qualified learner?
user1804599
With more programmers, there will be more programmers spending less time writing buggy programs.
knowin how to break things down
@MoonOwlPrince uh what. It doesn't follow.
Shitty programmers generate programming work
@orlp Did I say there will be? All I'm saying is "there should be".
08:58
it's recursive
@Griwes as you educate less programmers, you will get less good programmers, and more morons
@thecoshman People are often not great problem solvers.
@Griwes try looking up the origin of the term 'bug'
@orlp Agreed.
@Griwes lol
08:59
@Griwes so you're talking about hypothetical bullshit that doesn't even matter?
user1804599
What you need is not just more programmers.
@Cinch yes most of the people in this world are iditots. Your point?
@thecoshman Less SLOC => less bugs.
stop making excuses
user1804599
You need more flawless programmers like me.
08:59
@Cinch of course. It's a skill you have to develope
@rightfold :D
@BartekBanachewicz My point is that idiots should be able to program well, but the problem-solvers should be able to problem solve AND program.
@Cinch Yeah, and those people bad at that should not be programmers.
@Griwes so... not C++ :P
@Cinch idiots will never be able to program.

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