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04:00
†: a view that is fairly common but that I don’t think you @Rapptz have!
For full disclosure I have contributed a patch to libstdc++ ergo I have assigned copyright to the FSF
Alright. If I use a LGPL library (note: not GPL) I have a couple of restrictions. If I use this LGPL library I have to provide source code readily available for that library that I used somehow. A tarball, a link online, something. I hope that link doesn't go down!

If I modify the library to better fit something that I want to do I have to go through the process of stating my changes. I know it's part of the philosophy but it's troublesome to do this if I don't have that many substantial changes. My changes were just better fit for the specific domain, I'm sure they'd love to see my change
(see full text)
Is that a quote? It seems out of context.
Nope. I typed it out myself.
He asked for more reasons why I didn't like using (L)GPL libraries.
Why does that first thing only apply to the LGPL, not the GPL?
If I use this LGPL library I have to provide source code readily available for that library that I used somehow.
Is that accurate if you have not modified the dependency?
04:06
Yeah.
Yes, and you need to provide a way for someone to relink it.
I think I’ll stick with Mysticial here.
?
e.g. You technically have to provide a link to where to get libstdc++ source when you use it.
I thought it was either-or.
1) Use a suitable shared library mechanism for linking with the Library. A suitable mechanism is one that (a) uses at run time a copy of the Library already present on the user's computer system, and (b) will operate properly with a modified version of the Library that is interface-compatible with the Linked Version.
If you statically link to an LGPL, not only do you need to provide the source code for that library (a link to it is fine), but you need to provide a way to someone to replace it with their own version of the LGPL library.
04:08
i.e. if your combined work links with the user’s own copy of the dependency, then I don’t think you have to comply with 0), which does require you to make the source available
The same sort of thing applies to dynamic linking, but it's much easier since you just swap out the dynamic library.
Righto
Do one of the following:
is all I wanted to clarify
Right.
I remember having this discussion here a long time ago with Cat.
I tend to forget the exact details of the LGPL precisely because it’s so specific, too much hassle as a user-developer
Yup.
Basically just a lot of effort on my part that I'd rather not do so...
04:11
Yeah, and it's for a very specific reason that LGPL exists.
Alright, whatever... I still don't get why the important thing only applies to the LGPL, not GPL or AGPL, but I guess there's not so much reason to change the license for me. Still an interesting thing to know about. Thanks @Rapptz!

I'll head to bed now; it was nice talking to everyone. I'll probably be around one or the other time in the next days / weeks :)
It applies to GPL too.
sorta
GPL is just plain bad for libraries IMO
GPL doesn't let you link to it at all IIRC.
yeah
you can't link at all without disclosing source iirc
Of course it does. But you have to play along.
04:13
yeah and that's lame imo
Yeah, that's why I like the GPL and AGPL :P
That it’s 'linking' is irrelevant.
not for libraries :v
Applications link, too.
Well, it depends
You might want to disallow closed-source projects to use your library altogether
04:14
Which is why LGPL exists in the first place. A lot of people are just not gonna use any GPL libraries, period.
Especially when there are alternatives that are not GPL.
@Mysticial That’s a common misconception.
The LGPL is not the GPL for libraries.
The GPL is the GPL for libraries.
meh that was dumb ignore it
hehe, okay
I don't even know what you meant with "user code"
@LucDanton I thought the purpose of LGPL was to encourage people to actually use a piece of software. Take libc for instance, if it's GPL, nobody with closed-sourced software is gonna use it since there are alternatives to libc.
user of the library
04:15
@jPlatte The GPL doesn’t let you do that btw.
@LucDanton Okay? Then why are (almost?) no closed source programs using GPL libraries?
@Mysticial The xGPLs do make exceptions for system-things precisely for that sort of situation. And yeah, one function of the LGPL is to allow anyone to make they own system-y thing. Not every library fits that model.
@jPlatte 'Use' is ambiguous.
Perhaps you meant 'incorporate'? If so, never mind.
@LucDanton There's that, but I wasn't talking specifically about system libraries. There are plenty of non-system libraries that do have alternatives which people can turn to if they don't like GPL.
Or applications, yes.
@LucDanton I don't really know how "incorporate" would be defined... But what would be legal use of a GPL-licensed library in a closed-source project?
04:18
For example, GMP is LGPL because there are plenty of alternatives.
@jPlatte Closed source projects can use GPL components and they can sell it for money. To meet the GPL requirement of distributing source they can do distribute the source to the people who purchase the application.
Well "closed source".
I just wanted to say that
@jPlatte Things like linking to a dependency, i.e. the resulting program (or library) contains code from somewhere else. If the project make use of a program without linking to it, it’s a different situation. I was also not sure what you meant by 'projects'.
They would have to distribute the source of the library and their application to their buyers, right?
Yeah.
04:21
E.g. it’s thought (could be a dumb rumor, I don’t know about that) that Google uses modified Linux kernels internally, which modifications are not known. Maybe that counts as a project to you.
They might even use the GPL themselves... Which is really an interesting, but nearly non-used thing.
@LucDanton iirc they tried to contribute the stuff back to the official linux repo but they declined
but I do believe they're not doing it in secrecy.
One way or another it shouldn’t be surprising that something as big as Google modifies kernels for their purposes.
they're not doing it illegally is my point
@LucDanton What does that have to do with the distribution of a software? They're using it internally, so they're allowed to do whatever changes they want without releasing the source as long as they don't distribute images, no?
04:23
@jPlatte See, that’s why 'use' and 'project' are ambiguous. If you say 'distribute' then yeah it’s not ambiguous anymore.
@LucDanton Yes, Google does use a modified kernel with a modified Ubuntu. But they don't distribute it. So not not a violation of anything.
"Google project X are using a modified kernel" <- 'project' and 'use'
8 mins ago, by Luc Danton
@jPlatte The GPL doesn’t let you do that btw.
I’m aware.
@LucDanton Oh so that's what you're talking about. Yeah of course I'm talking about software that will be released, or in the case of the AGPL, ran on a publicly accessible server.
Anyway I'm gonna go play games.
And I should really go to bed now
04:25
Ya know I have had so many teachers that made a point to teach us to be as clear as possible in all situations.
@lu Ooookay, sorry ^^
I'm STILL trying to use Enter for autocomplete....
Alright I'm off.
lol
over 20h etc.
WTFPL is just the same as no license at all...
bye!
@jPlatte Next misconceptions up: everything about the public domain!
04:30
@Rapptz the kid has pretty eyes
@Rapptz I laughed at "my name is not dad, it's GNU/dad"
04:43
1> INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR in 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 12.0\VC\bin\CL.exe'
again
user3010322
git rekt
@ParkYoung-Bae I feel a hair better about BCC32 crashing all the time, knowing that MSVC does also.
Of course, MSVC is still much more compliant than BCC32, but... oh well.
You use BCC?!
05:02
@ParkYoung-Bae I've used it (but the last time was probably over 10 years ago).
@ParkYoung-Bae Unless you're using MSVC-specific or Windows API-specific calls, why not install mingw32 and gcc?
I narrowed down the problem to std::aligned_storage_t<T>. It should of course be sizeof(T), but putting T instead crashes the compiler :)
05:22
Night fuckers
@ParkYoung-Bae I sometimes use it for emails.
05:39
lol
@Mysticial You don't happen to have a lobste.rs account do yo?
what's that?
invite-only news aggregator
TIL 'aggregator' is not in google chrome's dictionary
made me doublecheck
Ow! I seem to have missed some drama here.
Morning.
what drama?
Somebody got butthurt and started flagging things? This never happened before.
Oh yeah, not just that. All it took was for Cat to say the word, "shit" - which he has never said before.
CAT SAID SHIT?!
my god
call the newspapers
make sure to mention water is wet
05:59
…you keep track of who said what expletives and how much?
4 hours ago, by Mysticial
Did he really flip out because Cat called his code "shit"?
^^ I've never gotten such fast responses before from the lounge. :)
'never before'?
wut
my SO profile has been viewed 2740 times?
I could've sworn Rapptz and Cat said, "Yes" to my question before I even hit enter.
06:02
:)
lol, I said sh*t only 17 times! I am such a nice person, am I not? :)
My shit/fuck ratio is 509/470. So it's about even.
@wilx 18 times
@wilx you just said it :D
@Mysticial 90 / 145
@Mysticial seems like you're a shitter, while I'm a fucker
2
when I look at questions like this I seriously wonder what goes on on the other end of the keyboard: stackoverflow.com/questions/28957128/…
Oh, that's a good one. Favorited.
06:08
like, SURELY these people must understand we don't have any context and that their question - even if we wanted to - can't be answered
guyzz i just start doing computer science 3-4 weeks ago and our professor gave me this assignment which of standford university.... — Umer Sabir 6 mins ago
@Mysticial ^
user3010322
top lel
lolwut
didn't realize stanford enrolled such idiots lol
oh wait
Either he's lying, or Stanford has dropped to a new low.
it's standford, stanford's knockoff
06:16
oh
Most of the top college these days are a dick about English literacy. So he probably doesn't go to Stanford - as in the one in Palo Alto.
I almost didn't get into a decent college because my English and writing skills sucked.
I figured with my grades I could go to an Ivy league school if I wanted to pursue that.
@orlp Ask around Berkeley, and they'll happily tell you that's the only types who enroll at Stanford.
But I never felt the compassion to put in the tremendous effort.
I do not think I would learn significantly more there than I do here @ leiden university at a fraction of the price and effort.
The major difference would be 'credentials', but I honestly don't care about people that judge me purely on what idiot school I went to.
@JerryCoffin Yep. I got rejected from Stanford because of my GPA and SAT.
@orlp I think Ivy league is often less about learning more, and more about proving how hard you've worked.
06:21
I'm not exactly a bookworm.
@JerryCoffin I'm not a hard worker, I'm an obsessed worker.
@JerryCoffin I however do not choose my obsessions.
They just come along.
@orlp Few of us do, I think.
@Mysticial Yeah--certainly wouldn't want anybody who actually knew what mattered to them, and concentrated on that.
@JerryCoffin It was actually a blessing in disguise. I would've been raped had I gone to Stanford.
And would've had no chance to work on that stupid Pi program and my SO account which got me a job back at home.
@Mysticial Sexually harassed, maybe. Actual rape is fairly rare though...
Do you guys have a preference for formatting raw strings literals with embedded newlines? Kinda wish I could have the first newline ignored, so that I could write a nice block/paragraph at column 0.
06:28
"blah blah\n"
"Cat calls this code shit\n"
"someone gets butthurt\n"
"meta post\n"
@LucDanton I don't think I've ever had enough string literal data with newlines to bother worrying about it
@Mysticial did you have a programming related side job while in uni?
@orlp My Pi program and a few other tiny apps. So not jobs per se, but hobbies.
@JerryCoffin I thought the whole point of going to a top university is to prove how smart you are ...
@Mysticial I'll take that as a no :P
I've been approached by multiple companies, but none of them offer remote/flex hour work that I can combine with my study
@chmod711telkitty Proving how smart you are is secondary. As with nearly all human pursuits, the primary intent is to get laid.
5
06:31
I saw plenty of dumbasses worked very hard but ended with little money after years at workforce
@chmod711telkitty Prove to whom?
@JerryCoffin not getting laid ... It's more like having as many quality offsprings as possible which usually starts with getting laid
@Mysticial I figured I’d put that initial newline and then make a string around it. If it were a string view instead it’d be nicer, but eh.
Judge by the amount of spring & amount of laying I am getting I am probably one of the biggest losers ... 😭
"I am problem one of the biggest loser" - telkitty 2015
you should apply to standford with english like that, you'd fit right in
06:38
Consider I went to one of the top universities here, had scholarship ended with honours degree I would not be surprised that I could have attended Stanford if I was in the u.s.
Amusing, GCC lets me explicitly instantiate variable templates while leaving some auto in there, e.g. template auto const& foo… (the auto was there in the primary template). CBA to find out if that’s supposed to work.
@chmod711telkitty Sorry, but I disagree. I'm pretty sure the real primary intent is to get laid. Having children is frequently just an accidental by-product. Yes, that accidental by-product is the one that made getting laid our primary goal, but it's definitely the power behind the throne, so to speak.
Evolution gave us a primary drive to mate, as mating would improve the chances of the species to continue existing by creating offspring.
If our drive was to reproduce, rather than mate, we'd all get incredibly turned on by in vitro fertilisation.
@orlp Aka: Celibacy is not hereditary.
@JerryCoffin Up until recently, homosexuality wasn't either.
here comes the can of worms.......
did I ever link you guys the most amazing piece of code I found on the internet?
gist: Pure genius, 2012-01-22 15:57:52Z
06:48
@orlp /* this code is amazing---and complete in only one line! */
I disagree @JerryCoffin, all creatures reproduce, not all of them have sex like humans do.
Getting laid? Where? <_< >_>
Brothel ... Far far away!
@chmod711telkitty That's not true, not all creatures reproduce.
A mule is the offspring of a male donkey (jack) and a female horse (mare). Horses and donkeys are different species, with different numbers of chromosomes. Of the two F1 hybrids between these two species, a mule is easier to obtain than a hinny, which is the product of a female donkey (jenny) and a male horse (stallion). The size of a mule and work to which it is put depend largely on the breeding of the mule's dam. Mules can be lightweight, medium weight, or even, when produced from draft horse mares, of moderately heavy weight. It has been claimed that mules are "more patient, sure-footed, hardy...
06:51
@chmod711telkitty :( I have never been to one and I am not going to change that. :)
@wilx I think I probably was once, but didn't realize it at the time. Had slept wrong, so I could barely turn my head at all, and decided I needed a massage. Looked in the phone book, and called a couple ready to make appointments in a week or so--no good. Finally got one that said to just come over, and they'd get me right in. Wasn't until years later that I realized what the "are you sure there's nothing more I can do for you?" was probably hinting at.
@JerryCoffin :D
@JerryCoffin ;)
@JerryCoffin Well, was she dressed in only lingerie when you were getting the massage? :)
@wilx Thinking back on it, even I'm amazed at the ability of a purebred nerd to miss the incredibly obvious. It's not like I could have made it to 20+ years old without having heard of the connection between massage parlors and prostitution, either.
07:00
@JerryCoffin I have actually noticed only recently through some Japanese porn which I thought was only done Japan. Interesting
@wilx If so, I didn't notice at the time, but the pain in my neck/shoulders was distracting enough that she could well have been without my noticing at all.
Well, I think I'm off to try to get some sleep. Later all.
07:17
@StackedCrooked maybe want to investigate if coliru is on vulnerable hardware
if it is, don't think you have an alternative than to replace the hardware
Morning all.
Mornin'.
07:35
Wow just read the stuff with that Isaiah guy
07:48
If someone told me my code is shit, my first reaction would be "why"?
This dude just went "yeah yeah I don't care if it's shit, is it correct?"
well, they took it personally
He's not humble enough to come here I'ld say
@ParkYoung-Bae I'm not worth talking to with my < 2k rep? :(
@Rerito fuck off pleb
Jerry's story reminded me of a friend of mine adventures in Canton lol
Xeo
Xeo
08:04
Oh boy. I go to sleep a little earlier and you guys get to have fun with meta again :(
user3010322
I
user3010322
HATE
user3010322
R.
Oh wow. Security vulnerabilities just got more interesting again:
2
“Rowhammer” is a problem with some recent DRAM devices in which repeatedly accessing a row of memory can cause bit flips in adjacent rows. We tested a selection of laptops and found that a subset of them exhibited the problem.
8
@orlp ah I wasn't the first
user3010322
That's like when people would back-hack Printers to load up hacked firmware and inject it into machines.
08:13
@sehe That's terrifying.
That also reminds me to continue reading that one thing about how memory works.
balls hit walls and other balls
yup. busted
@sehe What the fuck
@Rerito Um, you're still > ThePhD, which is good.
@LucDanton It's actually surprising that hardware seems to work well most of the time.
@sehe WTF?!
08:15
I mean, we programmers have things easy with the "abstraction" dream from Von Neumann
DAE type cd instead of ssh sometimes
No, you’re the only one. Weirdo.
@sehe The empty set is a subset of every set! QED
user3010322
@ParkYoung-Bae Heey. :c
@sehe In fact just from reading your quote I couldn’t believe this was a security issue, it sounded like a hardware defect!
Of course a few hackers later and then…
08:18
@sehe This is true. It's easy to forget the ridiculous Jenga tower of components that our conveniences depend on.
guyzz now i have added coding help me now to fix errors... — Umer Sabir 2 hours ago
Sweet, sweet despair.
Xeo
Xeo
@Maxpm A Jenga tower 30 minutes into the game, you mean.
With parts made from wood, metal, goo, and the tears of disillusioned children.
Of which there are many
Hopefully they will issue a patch
08:27
The patch will hold a limited supply of tissues
To alleviate the tears of the children some of the time
@sehe very bad job
@sehe I think that understanding how it apparently works makes it all the more amazing.
@ParkYoung-Bae a do-it-yourself soldering kit?
@ParkYoung-Bae this is a hardware issue
no patches
just tears
I don't see how that's related
morning
@ParkYoung-Bae you can release a patch for a software issue, but you can't for hardware
08:35
Why not
@orlp Well, you could issue BIOS patches that should like do the refresh more often or such?
I understand that you people are terribly rude (meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/287707/…)
user1804599
@sehe "a subset of them" epic nerd
@MarcoA. Who the fuck said that? It's totally incorrect.
user1804599
Sets are good.
08:44
Aw I missed drama overnight?
@райтфолд don't look at me
@MarcoA. can you explain it then, because I personally don't :)
@sehe just joking, I didn't even look at the transcript :D
@TheForestAndTheTrees Me too. I hate missing a good fight :(
@orlp o_0 yes you can...
Speaking of fights, who is all set for coming to Unconference 2.0? I need to start gathering this info together.
user1804599
This is so awesome.
user1804599
08:49
I love Scala.
@sehe So, basically, I should get ECC memory and capable PC the next time I buy one.
Woooo C++ midterm tomorrow!
user1804599
thrift.apache.org this website is fast as hell.
user1804599
I like that.
08:52
Question: Do you guys prefer operator overloading or not?
@wilx lol, the electrons are escaping the rows. I guess this is the 'Quantum Computing' I've read about?
@ʎǝʞuoɯɹǝqʎɔ done
@MartinJames It seems to me like circuitry design flaw that nobody has noticed before.
@MarcoA. Good :).
@Cinch I don't normally use operator overloading in my code (except for assignment or operator()), but I couldn't imagine myself using math library without user-defined operators (lol Java)
08:55
@milleniumbug Yeah, my professor has a major obsession with operator overloading or something
IDK it seems standard to teach but idk if that's such a good idea
Semantics can get complicated
@wilx Basically, you should not trust computers
@ʎǝʞuoɯɹǝqʎɔ what is a cypermonkeʎ?
i.e. what should (human1 == human2) evaluate?
@sehe Well, what does that mean? Am I supposed to do all the arithmetic myself? :)
@Cinch It seems that people teach C++ stuff in the order they got introduced in the language, which is retarded.
@wilx Meh - they pushed the tech too far, the electrons are sloshing over the side of the rows and filling up the buckets on either side.
08:56
@Cinch If it were a function instead, how much would it help?
@wilx no. It means you should not trust computers. You can still use untrusted things
@Cinch Java would have human1.equals(human2), which is more retarded, given that every object has equals, whether you want it or not (thanks to it being included in Object)
@sehe But will that not lead to paranoia?
Try it. Let me know
You too with the uptalk now?
@milleniumbug hm.
Regardless, can an operator overload return void?
08:59
Try it. (Yes)

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