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I didn't say anything on meta about you.
not you
repptz
rektz
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's still quite a lot of days coming up 'til then ...
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Are you trying to debase my comment with a non sequitur ad hominem?
@πάνταῥεῖ got time to make it perfect then
02:01
@ParkYoung-Bae Latin debases everything
@ParkYoung-Bae leverage your synergies going forwards to maximise return on investment and transfer knowledge from operations to the board
Can we forget about logical fallacies
Quid memorem infandas caedes (I have no idea what that means but it sounds good).
They are fallacies themselves
inpandas /cc @Nooble
02:02
@CatPlusPlus He didn't fall for it, I am disappoint
@ParkYoung-Bae It was a nice try
Well it's 2am and I have to be up at 8am. So I'll catch the tail end of this argument in the morning. Have fun!
thx, gud nite
@LightnessRacesinOrbit inkoalas?
I heard a story of a man who loved his goldfish very much, he took the fish out of tank to inspect the fish every now and then, worrying the fish is not getting enough good food, fresh air & water was not clean enough. At the end, the fish died from too much handling. That story reminds me of the poor vlad.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Cicada
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Good night.
02:03
82
A: Offensive, inappropriate, and un-professional chat room names

Lightness Races in OrbitContrary to what the infantile room owners seem to believe, the Lounge is a part of Stack Overflow and, as such, this room name was absolutely inappropriate. I say this as a regular in the Lounge. The reason for the name discrepancy is a combination of caching and the Lounge's owners' habit of ...

Always funny
I will fight this "professionalism" disease as fiercely as I can till the day I die. — Cat Plus Plus May 16 '14 at 23:37
<3
@Jefffrey really?
0
A: Offensive, inappropriate, and un-professional chat room names

Brian WarshawFirst time on meta here, but I felt compelled to respond. Feel free to disregard. While I think our society has a problem with over-eagerly labeling things anti-woman, I don't think this is a case of that. Assuming that every person you interact with on here is a guy is one thing--it's perhaps b...

> @WilliamAndrewMontgomery
Oh my I had forgotten that nick
But as I stated earlier, if you really need a concise and serious answer to a real world programming problem, you're mostly lost at this site. The experts (beyond my level) are elsewhere :-( ...
@DeadMG: You seem to believe that I think it needs defending. It does not. It absolutely does. This is not your website. You, I and everybody else here are guests. — Lightness Races in Orbit May 17 '14 at 0:23
:facepalm:
02:09
guys let's talk about something positive
I was gonna make a bad joke on HIV but nevermind
fuck
Oh my how did you all read my mind?!!!
lol low tier jokes
02:10
Why HIV though?
Could be any test
His girlfriend's?
@Mysticial Broadwell Xeon released, but SOC. :(
02:24
@MarkGarcia Not even the full-sized either.
@ParkYoung-Bae Missing to take their medicine perhaps:
:C=
@MarkGarcia :C
So Intel is really moving away from motherboards and socketed chips.
Sad.
@ParkYoung-Bae "AD2HD03" Mind to translate?
It's a very complex pun merging H2CO3 and ADHD.
02:35
@Nooble Not really, but SOCs and efficiency-focus are areas they don't have big foothold on.
@MarkGarcia This article though.
> its own
Don't ya worry @Nooble!
@Nooble So?
Do you have an Intel mobo?
@ParkYoung-Bae So the audience to understand this pun is naturally quite narrow :-P.
> The focus going forward will be on highly integrated designs, even for the desktop (think all-in-ones, thin mini-ITX, NUC, etc...).
02:42
The article is saying Intel is not making their motherboards anymore.
@πάνταῥεῖ Naturally!
Not their desktop chips.
@Rapptz I mean, the paragraph before that.
> There's also the obvious motivation: the desktop PC business isn't exactly booming. Late last year word spread of Intel's plans for making Broadwell (14nm Core microprocessor in 2014) BGA-only. While we'll continue to see socketed CPUs beyond that, the cadence will be slower than what we're used to.
@Nooble As I said, they're just going for a market where they don't exist before.
From another article that is better worded:
> Intel has been quick to refute claims that this move is a sign that they are no longer committed to desktop products. I think that’s true. Not wanting to build motherboards isn’t the same as not supporting desktop hardware. What it does reflect, however, is the fact that desktops are increasingly one component that ties computing together rather than serving as the form factor through which all computing is done.
02:45
@Nooble And they're realizing that upgrades don't come more often based on the consumers themselves.
Hmm...
@Nooble And it's a good thing if your theory holds. AMD needs to catch up.
While Intel at least put some pressure on the mobile front.
@ParkYoung-Bae Somehow all of these Ygors are kind of "revenants"
@MarkGarcia Yeah, Intel really needs some competition.
@Nooble On the server/desktop front.
02:47
Yep.
Does Intel not have the lead for ultrabooks too?
They need to better compete on mobile. Don't want ARM in monopoly just as we don't want that for Intel.
@Nooble They built ultrabooks. And sure AMD don't have any of them.
Oh on that mobile.
They also have by far the best out-of-the-box experience on linux. Fuck dedicated graphics, HD4600 FTW! :)
Next year we shall see what AMD will do with its 14nm process.
02:57
@Rapptz I don't get it... What is that code snippet about?
checking if a function call is ambiguous
there's a template function enabled via expression SFINAE
and then there's a free function
I know free concrete typed functions take precedence over the greedy templates but I'm not sure how it played with expression SFINAE
But which function call is ambiguous any why?
it's not ambiguous, I thought it might be
g(test{})
@Rapptz The check can be removed and the snippet is the same though.
@LucDanton I explain my internal thought process in the next sentence.
03:01
feel like i need a book on templates
But there’s no interplay in the snippet you showed.
:(
forget it, nvm
Oh okay, so you were just testing whether you could somehow create a template function that would take precedence over or be equally "valued" by the overload resolution as the free function?
yes
Expression SFINAE means that to check for ambiguity, you need to construct an expression (or set of expressions) which are valid iff a call is ambiguous. Adding overloads means that either you have a fallback (if it’s ranked below the subset of the overload set constrained on ambiguity), or something that hides the check (if it’s above).
makes sense?
03:04
Yeah, SFINAE is this kind of thing that looks like you can do awesome stuff with it, but then you realize you can't do a lot of awesome things you want to do with it.
Like what?
Had the same thing when answering an SO question today.
Conditionally enable a member variable
SFINAE has never failed me really
C++14 allows you to have variable templates
don't think you can SFINAE those
03:05
@jPlatte I do that from time to time.
SFINAE (specifically std::enable_if) allows you to create templates that aren't really templates (either exist as one type or don't exist at all)
@jPlatte Trait + inheritance.
@jPlatte orly
tell us about those
Okay when I say 'SFINAE' I mean the fact that ill-formed expressions don’t make the whole program ill-formed in some contexts, i.e. I’m using the strictest meaning. Not the related set of techniques that exist around it.
@jPlatte std::enable_if is not SFINAE itself.
But you can't create a conditional member in a class, although you can create a conditional function
03:07
it uses it under the hood
Yes I know
@Rapptz Not even a little!
By the way, this is the question I'm talking about:
4
Q: C++ (Somehow) limit struct to parent union size

PrecursorI'm attempting to create a color class of variable size- given a template-determined array of values, I'd like to create named aliases of each value in the array, ie: template<int C = 3, typename T = unsigned char> class Color { public: union { T v[C]; struct { T r, g, b, a; ...

You use std::enable_if to trigger SFINAE.
Yeah yeah. You check if ::type exists.
:v
03:08
Seemed relevant since we started with expression SFINAE to begin with.
It would be so nice to have

T r, g, b;
std::enable_if_t<(nChans == 4), T> a;

there
I know how SFINAE works!
@Rapptz And I don’t like sloppy wording.
@Rapptz No you don't
@jPlatte Yeah you want something more like static if rather than SFINAE per se.
03:09
@LucDanton I don't speak standardese in every day language.
@LucDanton Yeah. Is there a C++1z proposal? :D
@Rapptz I meant in general. Doesn’t have to be about C++.
Rude.
@jPlatte There have been proposals against static if.
@ParkYoung-Bae Do so.
03:10
@Rapptz Kidding.
@LucDanton What do you mean?
There’s at least one proposal that has been submitted and then published which argues against the introduction of a static if-like construct to the C++ programming language.
I can’t be more explicit than that.
I don't think static if applies there though.
You can explicitly propose to not include a feature?
If it did that'd be one cool feature.
but I don't know D.
@jPlatte Yes.
Or to be more precise
You can write a paper that says you don't like another paper.
03:13
Oh right, I've seen one already
see: "Don't see remove trigraphs please' and "Please don't add static if"
or the one about std::async etc etc.
there are many
Against the force-implicit return value initialization
@jPlatte Weirdly enough 'proposals' are more like papers. Some of which include actual changes to the Standard, esp. when they mature enough. Then those changes can eventually make it into the Standard. It’s not just about the changes though, they come with rationales and outline arguments for or against those changes.
yeah that's by someone in the lounge.
Oh, okay
03:14
In a sense it was a 'null proposal' in that it listed why no changes should be made with respect to that putative feature.
Okay
> putative
Stay polite please
@Rapptz I do think that’s how it works in D.
we have suffered a great loss
nah not really
@ParkYoung-Bae Took me like 5s
03:16
lol
@Rapptz yup
> It can be used to conditionally compile declarations, not just statements.
So, which C++1z or TS stuff are you excited about? :)
That's really neat honestly.
Modu- oh wait.
Why'd we go against it?
03:17
I thought fold expressions were fairly banal but now I want them more and more.
Me too.
I'm mostly excited for modules.
Since I'm not going to get real concepts any time soon.
Bjarne might die before that happens.
@Rapptz Seems like the perfect time to ask: what if we wanted to fold with an arbitrary functions, and not an operator? Can you think of a syntax for it?
Hm, what's fold expressions about?
What with parens it’s actually tricky to make it look nice.
folding over a parameter pack
03:19
@LucDanton #include <lisp>
@jPlatte template<typename... Conds> constexpr bool and_(Conds const&... conds) { return conds && ...; }
17
Q: Fold expressions with arbitrary functors?

Ryan HainingLooking over the C++17 paper on folds, (and on cppreference), I'm confused as to why the choice was made to only work with operators? At first glance it seems like it would make it easier to expand (... + args) by just shoving a + token between the elements of args, but I'm unconvinced this is a...

@LucDanton Aaah yeah I've seen that somewhere
@Rapptz Not looking forward to that :(
03:20
the wrapper?
lmao
it's C++, we have wrappers all the time :p
I've not created any variadic templates other than ones to forward parameters yet, though, so I don't think I'd need that feature very often.
Well, doesn’t fold(f, z) + ... + args look weird?
But nobody excited about the library fundamentals TS? I wanna have an optional<T> already!
Yeah but we have that already with boost
library additions are not too exciting compared to core language features
03:21
eeeh it’s not generic enough for me, I use reference types in lots of places
expected<T, E> (or the other way around with the parameters) would be neat too, but I don't think that's in the TS
I was looking at the proposal
I see operator, is considered.
@jPlatte I thought that one was dead in the water atm.
but it has to return void
03:22
@Rapptz I don’t think that improves things re: arbitrary function :)
could have been a cool way to (ab)use it.
Meh. Boosts build system is awful, and I'm doing cross-compiling (to JS with emscripten) with one of my main hobby projects, so I've not really used boost much yet.
@Rapptz no no
Hm?
@LucDanton Could well be.
03:23
Compare (pack @ ...) with (pack @ ... @ z)
I don't use Boost anymore.
For an empty pack, the former results in the natural unit for the operator. Which is void() for comma. In the latter, it’s z.
@Rapptz Why not?
Cool things are in the stdlib.
So yes you can fold(f, z), ..., args
03:24
The rest I have in Gears.
Only thing missing is <filesystem>.
but I remembered a while back that <filesystem> won't work on MinGW.
So I'm no longer excited for it
Hm, I use Boost.ProgramOptions,PropertyTree,Interprocess and Predef quite extensively
That’s so unhip!
I have my own Boost.PO.
@Rapptz Why?
@jPlatte libstdc++ is a POSIX-based stdlib.
It's a miracle that std::thread works.
03:27
@Rapptz Eh, it’s Posix if it can help it.
So libstdc++'s <filesystem> will more than likely use the POSIX filesystem functions in the implementation
I'd expect MinGW to have some patches for libstdc++...
Similar to how std::system_category uses std::strerror instead of turning Windows-specific error codes to string etc.
I doubt it.
@Rapptz Pull requests welcome!
Long ass constructor vs setters
03:28
param object
kidding ofc
I want named params
@ParkYoung-Bae I don’t do setters.
multiple constructors with setters
@ParkYoung-Bae Who doesn't.
@LucDanton I'm refactoring setters-heavy code
@LucDanton &dagger; some conditions apply
03:29
Are we getting those for C++17
No.
ikr
I'd be all over that feature.
I've been wanting it for like 5 years.
@Rapptz I was joking, they take patches, not pull requests. Are you referring to the copyright assignment?
Yep.
03:31
Ah yeah that’s a hard pill to swallow.
I'd rather contribute to libc++.
What's the issue?
paperwork for releasing your code to GPL
@ParkYoung-Bae GNU projects only accept contributions if you assign copyright to the EFF, GCC is one of them.
@Rapptz That’s not it.
There’s no paperwork necessary for you to grant a license (well, a public one at least). You just do it.
Oh yeah the Generalized Cancer License
03:33
Then what's the paperwork for?
Assigning/joint copyright.
I realised my faulty wording.
That's what I meant but didn't express it well I suppose.
but yeah point still stands
I'd rather contribute to libc++ given the choice and I can't even use it on Windows.
@Rapptz C++ feature requests are actually prone to be solved with some completely different solutions (e.g. traits/concept checks) as you naively wanted to have them implemented it.
@Rapptz But there's a proposal
@ParkYoung-Bae They're not too keen on it.
two big issues always come up.
1) "What about designated init??"
and then 2) "We have to mandate the naming of parameters for our standard library"
03:38
ugh
@Rapptz Designate init()
maybe one day we'll get named parameters.
@Rapptz Do mappings (e.g. using an enum discriminator)
aaah it’s FSF not EFF, I mixed them up
@Rapptz On principle or due to the hassle?
More towards the latter.
I'd normally don't want my code to be licensed under GPL but I like libstdc++.
what a proposal.
03:44
@Rapptz What's your problem with the GPL, and what license do you prefer?
@Rapptz Uhm, what please? I actually can't see the license implications. May be I've been missing something from the ongoing thread.
Dang, left folding is ... @ pack, I may need some getting used to before getting it right
lol
@jPlatte It spreads. I hate using GPL libraries. LGPL too. I don't see why I have to do more than just provide the license terms myself or why I'm not allowed to statically link something.
/ cc @πάνταῥεῖ ^
@Rapptz 'I' as a user developer?
Yes. I as in me.
I tend to use MIT these days but I'm fine with Apache, BSD and other permissive licenses.
I like MPL better than the GPL in terms of copyleft but I'm still iffy.
03:47
Hm, I might have validated the license of my own libraries... Why is one not allowed to statically link against [A|L]GPL (I suppose) libraries?
You are allowed to.
You can.
... but?
You are not allowed to redistribute a derived work without at least making the promise to make the source available on request (from whoever you are distributing to). As is the case when distributing a static library which incorporates a GPL'd work.
Why are you [sometimes] not allowed to?
03:49
It’s a bit of a mouthful, isn’t it?
@Rapptz LGPL serves well for most cases of proprietary usage, I can't follow your concerns.
What Luc says.
What's the problem with that?
It's troublesome. Why do I have to release my source code if I don't want to just because I'm using a GPL library linked statically?
Because the developer doesn’t want to. It’s a two-player game.
03:51
Which is why I stay away from it. I'm not playing that game.
(I’m not sure how rhetorical your question was, and how rhetorical my answer is.)
@Rapptz The point of LGPL is that it allows exceptions for static linkage at all.
I don't like GPL for other reasons outside of static linking hence my dislike for LGPL.
Well, I even have some months worth of work licensed under AGPL, but so far I'm the only one to have touched that code, so I could easily change the license
I still don't really know why I should though
It’s your license, your terms & what you want and need.
03:54
Yup.
@πάνταῥεῖ You can't statically link LGPL without disclosing code.
Anyone that comes to you saying 'if you license it under X, then I can do Y' you can dismiss if you want to. It really is a two-player game.
@Rapptz If you don't like it, you don't like it (for whatever unsolicited reason). It's well managable though license restrictions, that you don't need to publish your proprietary code.
@LucDanton It is a 2-player game.
I know that.
Alright. I just expected you to have some more bad things to say about the GPL license family, when you say you "hate" them and things like that. Because if it's often a good reason to not use one of those licenses, I should better know so I can change it while it's simple :)
If you want I can continue.
03:56
@Rapptz That was for jPlatte.
@Rapptz You can, but you need to provide a way to allow someone to relink.
@LucDanton It felt like you were insinuating that what I said could be dismissed :(
I did way too much reading on that when I realized that statically linking libc and pthreads might've been a problem.
those have special linking exceptions iirc.
@Rapptz Yeah, if you've got no better things to do, continue
03:57
Right. Anything that's built into the GCC compiler is under that exception.
I was talking LGPL in general.
IOW, anything that an unmodified GCC spits out is all yours to do whatever you want.
@Rapptz I try to be extra composed when it comes to talking about licenses since it’s flamewar material. I really hesitated asking you questions earlier since that could come off as some sort of persistent badgering.
I'm talking mainly about my opinion on why I avoid (L)GPL libraries like a plague.
If we're trying to have a GPL flamewar, let me contribute. GPL sucks.
03:59
If I want to write my own library and use a library as a dependency I don't like giving my users extra restrictions.
What I really wanted to do is dispel the view† that e.g. strong copyleft 'strong arms' you into doing things you don’t necessarily want to do. A license is a contract between two parties, and the two authors are just as legitimate when it comes to the combined work. If you feel strongly about made to do things you don’t want to, you should extend that feeling to the original author which might share the very same feeling!

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