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3:00 PM
So?
 
@orlp There's a % sign right there.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no there isnt
 
/tapout
 
@Jefffrey That's a summary report.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes only on the 2nd graph
 
3:00 PM
Ah, true.
 
I don't get how the hell do they get the difference
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, do we agree that that page is not speaking about women earning less then man on the same job?
 
"here, this woman earning less than this man earns less than this man"
 
@BartekBanachewicz They conduct proper studies, and you can access all the data and all the information about the methodology.
Alternatively, you can just keep strawmanning.
 
user1804599
I earn shitloads I don't get.
 
3:01 PM
It's easier, I'll admit.
 
@Jefffrey I think the point is that they are less likely to get the same job
 
Hey, strawman, how about you answer me?
 
@Jefffrey No, we don't.
 
user1804599
Also think of the strawwoman you fuck sexist.
 
lol
 
3:01 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes So where do you read that women earn less than men on the same job, exactly?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am questioning the sensibility of comparing "high paid workers who are paid less" to "high paid worksers who are paid more"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Don't be silly. Everyone knows that research is something you do to prove that you're right. Not to find out if you're right. :p
 
@AndyProwl That doesn't prove social discrimination of one bit
 
you can pick any arbitrary subset of people who are paid less
 
if women earn less for the same job why don't companies hire more women?
8
 
3:02 PM
^
 
user1804599
@orlp because they don't exist.
 
@orlp Because the companies pay less due to a (subconscious) belief that the women are worth less
 
@orlp Because the male supremacy is not letting them.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And I am questioning the sensibility of deliberately misrepresenting someone's argument.
 
@Jefffrey It does not "prove" anything, but it is suspicious in that respect
 
3:03 PM
@jalf Haven't been in a single company yet that did that FWIW
 
@AndyProwl Not at all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And you've tested that how?
 
@Jefffrey I'm busy. Last I checked the OECD data was not hard to come by.
 
Of course. Ping me when you find the data.
I also have to go to the library.
 
user1804599
I was wondering why my schema migration didn't work. Apparently the debugger breakpoint held open a transaction.
 
3:05 PM
@Jefffrey Why not? How do you interpret the correlation then? Pure chance?
 
If and when women are paid less, it is not because they get orders down from the top saying "please subtract 15% from all women's wages". It is because women are judged differently, and frequently found to be less skilled, less worthy of a promotion and less worthy of a raise.
2
 
@BartekBanachewicz For how many of the women at the company did you actually compare wages?
 
Here's how we upgrade a live data center at #stackoverflow: http://blog.serverfault.com/2015/03/05/how-we-upgrade-a-live-data-center #SnowOps
 
feeds
no one gives a fuck
 
3:06 PM
@jalf this wasn't a "proper study", hence the FWIW
 
And do you think your anecdotal sampling is more or less scientifically valid than the large scale studies that have been done of the same?
 
user1804599
@orlp Is larger better or worse?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, now you're countering data from a multinational organization whose goal is to promote economic development with anecdotes. Well done.
 
user1804599
I will not accept being behind Balgium.
 
@райтфолд read the text
 
3:06 PM
You're ridiculous.
 
@AndyProwl Nope. From my very little experience I see that women are less "working" creatures and more "social" creatures.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "FWIW I know for certain and without a shadow of doubt that this did not happen at the companies I've worked for. And I know that because I asked a woman once"
 
fuck that
nevermind.
 
What you meant to say was "FWIW, I am not aware of this happening in any company I've worked for"
 
I still consider the thing BS.
 
3:07 PM
Is it because society influences them at early age? Probably.
 
@Jefffrey I won't. I don't mind if you live in willing ignorance.
 
if a company pays women less just because they are women, it's a dumb company
 
@BartekBanachewicz I wonder why the wage gap exists. I wonder if it could be because men call it BS when confronted with it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait, what?
 
like, the gender gap is certainly there, but I believe it's due to difference in positions (which might well be due to sexism) rather than simply paying women less for the same
 
3:07 PM
well, fuck, it's shooting its own leg
 
@orlp I agree
 
"no, that can't be right. I dont believe it. We're not bad people. Those womens must be lying"
 
Ignorance of what, robot?
 
user1804599
gender gap
 
anyway, you should be paid according to your own standards
 
user1804599
3:08 PM
rightfold's gaping hole
 
I have heard and read explanations of the wage gap. According to some, it is because of existing gender roles. Man, traditionally seen as breadwinner, simply cannot afford to have less paid job if he wants a family and get a woman interested in him. In contrast, women seek such men and thus are less motivated to seek high paid jobs. This has changed in recent decades and the wage gap has shrunk a lot. According to the same sources, men generally work longer hours and higher risk jobs.
 
@Jefffrey If I understand that statement correctly (not sure I do) it sounds like a huge oversimplification to me.
 
I really could give more fucks about women being paid 20% less if not for the fact I'm paid 200% less than people in other countries
9
 
And since women take care of families, they do not build that much of a carrier and thus get paid less.
 
You said OECD has the stats, I went and found OECD stats, and they are not proving what you are saying. You said that the stats of what you are proving are hard to come by. So I gently said I would be waiting for them at any time. And you say "fuck that, I'm not going to give them to you"?
 
3:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I...
 
What the fuck is wrong with you?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Your costs of living are also 200% less than people in other countries, aren't they?
 
@BartekBanachewicz you can live anywhere in europe, can't you?
 
Whereas I'm not quite sure I see how women's costs of living are 20% less
 
@Jefffrey You misread what I said.
 
3:09 PM
@jalf this is rather complicated
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, which part?
 
user1804599
lol jalf
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know. And yes, the price/wage differences between countries are fundamentally unfair. I'm not denying that
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz I believe most people are paid to their employer's standards :p
 
3:10 PM
you can always change the employer, uh
 
true
 
it's like your fundamental right
 
@BartekBanachewicz not if you're a slave
 
being able to negotiate salary is another
 
but whichever employer you have, your wage is ultimately determined by the employer
 
3:11 PM
And no, I'm not giving anything to you. I couldn't care less. You rejected it by positing your preconceived assumptions, which I don't understand why they are stronger than (pretending there's no data backing my side) my assumptions. That's not a reasonable stance, and I don't want to bother with it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is that directed to me?
 
@jalf it's determined by the agreement between you and the employer
both parties are important
 
Actually, women in the Czech Republic in law enforcement have higher average wages than men.
That that it proves or disproves anything. :)
 
Another Lounge fight?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because I've rejected your assumptions by reading the very same stats you directed me to.
 
3:12 PM
maybe women are just worse at negotiating salaries
 
@BartekBanachewicz Sure, but if you're unhappy with your pay, you can't just change it. All you can do is quit. Whereas your employer can change it. They may have to give you advance warning and some other stuff, but they can change what they pay you
 
or at proving their skills
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have the page still in front of me. Are you willing to quote the part where it says that women earn less then men on the same job?
 
@Jefffrey It's a summary report of studies which you assumed were done in conditions that validate your argument.
 
or at doing actual work
 
3:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Look at what you're saying
 
maybe women are just superior but keeping a low profile, like the Dolphins
 
I don't mind being paid less than people in other countries
when the prices in my country allow me to live just as good as them
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've assumed no conditions.
 
"When women are paid less, the problem is clearly with them, not with their employer, society or, god forbid, me"
 
lol this "women get paid less it must be sexism" bullshit again?
 
3:13 PM
@jalf I'm saying that if you work for a sensible employer and you can negotiate, they pay should fit you. And more importantly, you shouldn't give a fuck about how much others are earning
 
It's just that women aren't as good at life
 
user1804599
I want to eat mantes.
 
I think it's probably true in some countries still. In the others it's almost certainly a misunderstanding of the statistics
 
Glad that's settled :p
 
It's like saying that if 60% of arrested people are black, the police must be institutionally racist
 
3:14 PM
@jalf my point was that it can be both.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit oecd.org/std/37962502.pdf, page 15 is where we are at
 
Which is abject nonsense
@Jefffrey Which page 15?
 
In the free market everyone is equal and no-one could possibly be bigoted, subconsciously or otherwise
 
@BartekBanachewicz So what causes women to be inferior at negotiating salaries? Is that a biological thing, do you think?
@TheForestAndTheTrees wat
 
@jalf fuck if I know. What causes some people to be better at negotiating skills than others?
 
3:15 PM
so are we still refusing to acknowledge sexism?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Page 15 in the PDF. The one specified in the corners of each page.
 
Maybe women predominantly go into jobs that are less well-paid regardless of the gender of the individual applicant
"NO FUCK YOU IT'S DISCRIMINATION"
Ain't got no time for it
 
@jalf I'm being sarcastic, I'm trying to point out to Bartek that maybe an employee might not be in a fair position to negotiate with their employer
 
@thecoshman We are still waiting for proof, yes.
 
"40 minutes health and safety talk"... or we could just not be idiots?
 
3:16 PM
@thecoshman You misspelt "so are people still disagreeing with me on my opinion about sexism?"
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're the one proposing that there is a general skill difference between genders. That men are just inherently better than women at something. You are the one proposing this as an explanation for a wage gap.
 
He didn't say that whatsoever.
You're grossly oversimplifying literally everything.
 
It's hardly an explanation if it's just "maybe women just are just inferior, but I dunno if they do, and I dunno why they would be"
 
@jalf well it's fucking obvious that ∃(thing) (men(thing) > women(thing))
 
In fact, by doing so, you're basically applying a strawman argument. And it's quite amusing to see someone use a strawman argument against Harold Bartek
 
3:17 PM
Perhaps cosmic rays just happen to zap 20% of the money women are paid?
 
as well as it's fucking obvious if you reverse the > into <
 
lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which doesn't make assuming that this one thing is a witness something that holds by itself.
 
Are you guys arguing with jalf?
 
3:17 PM
@Jefffrey you've been given the evidence that we believe shows there is a difference. You have chosen to disregard it. How about you have a go at showing us evidence when a man and a woman are equally suited for a job, have equal history, are in every way equal that there pay is also equal.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yep, and please let me know when you've found the logical connection leading from this claim to explaining a wage gap
 
Yeah, I'm going to stop getting sucked in now. Arguing with jalf is like arguing with an argument
 
@thecoshman The only "evidence" I've seen is that women earn less than men on average. Which is very different from "women earn less than men on average for the same job".
4
Would you like for me to explain the difference?
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS
 
I kind of love that the way most men react to evidence of the existence of a wage gap pretty much explains why a wage gap might exist
 
3:19 PM
I've been improving my teaching skills lately. :3
 
@Jefffrey then either you have not actually seen the evidence to which we are referring, or are misinterpreting it.
 
"women do some things worse than men" - perfectly OK
"women are worse at negotiating wages" - you fucking sexist pig
 
@thecoshman I've literally went and found it out.
 
@jalf A subclause of Anita's Law?
 
If you mean another "evidence" then please present it to me.
 
3:20 PM
When the reaction is "that can't be true. It must be their own fault. They must just deserve less money", is it so hard to believe that this attitude might just possibly bleed into employers and wage negotiations too?
 
If you don't have time right now, take your time and ping me when you do have such an evidence.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, yes
 
@jalf And now you're just being a dick. You can't take statements that challenge the logic and accuracy of your statistical interpretations and form as your only counter-argument "yeah well because you're just a mysoginist that says it all". What the hell is wrong with you?
 
I'm genuinely interested in seeing it.
 
Perhaps it would be less sexist if you could propose some evidence to back up your theory
 
3:20 PM
@jalf :laffo:
 
@jalf Nobody said that.
You're being deeply offensive.
 
Just plonk jalf already.
 
Wtf is happening
 
@jalf Ah, yes, sexist until proven innocent.
8
 
user1804599
user image
2
 
3:21 PM
@Jefffrey Not sure why I unplonked him breathe
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'cept bartek. "They must be worse at negotiating. Yeah, that's the problem"
 
@райтфолд lol
 
If you just smear a gender and paint them with your own prejudiced ideas and blame them for being treated worse than men, then yes, that is fucking sexist. I don't see how that could possibly surprise you
5
 
@SamDeHaan I haven't said they must. I have said that denying that possibility is dumb.
 
Sweet relief
 
3:22 PM
Try saying that black people are just not capable of working independently. It's actually their own fault that they were enslaved, and see if people call you racist
 
I'm not getting into a conversation with someone whose only rebuttal of mathematical arguments is a character assassination.
People like that are the problem in the world today.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes old!
 
Perversely I think they actually make the problem worse by constantly misrepresenting it out of prideful ignorance.
 
@jalf it's been known to happen. Dinosaurs also went extinct for no good reason
 
3:23 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Time travelling tank?
 
I'll be waiting for your evidence :) @R.MartinhoFernandes @thecoshman
 
@Jefffrey Won't come.
 
@sehe I blame the wage gap :p
 
I don't want to discuss with people that hold untenable stances.
 
I don't.
 
user1804599
3:23 PM
@sehe Dinosaurs aren't extinct.
 
user1804599
They live in the Moon, which is hollow.
 
I'm definitely not sure that sexist is inexistent.
I would just like for you to present some evidence as to why you are so certain about it.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You're actually not doing a bad job of it yourself. Not saying you don't have any reason to be rejecting his arguments, but you don't need to slaughter your opponent precisely for the same reasons
 
@Jefffrey I never mentioned sexism.
 
@jalf that's strangely poetic
 
3:24 PM
I can never remember where places are in Germany. Because it's just like a big blob.
 
All I know is that you haven't even read the summary report you keep flinging around.
 
The report is flawed, and I already explained why.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The one on page 15?
I've read it 3 times already.
 
But everybody's too busy flinging around accusations of sexism to stop and fucking listen.
 
Tell what I missed. It's very likely I've missed something.
 
3:25 PM
Hey, I guess it's cool to accuse people of sexism nowadays. What, you think you'll get all the chicks if you make up statistical nonsense and misrepresent it to hard-working men?
 
I've been sleeping very little this week.
 
Other people just have their blindfolds enabled by default
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ahem, I didn't say that.
 
the chart on page 15 is absurdly idiotic
 
I bet women get more sleep than you. The fucking sexists.
 
3:26 PM
@Blob Hi
 
NO COCK NO SLEEP NO COCK NO SLEEP
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Come on, let's keep it calm.
 
1 min ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
But everybody's too busy flinging around accusations of sexism to stop and fucking listen.
 
user3010322
I go to make a sandwich and this happens. ;~;
 
@Jefffrey Dude, I'm calm?
 
3:26 PM
I know you're doing it on purpose
 
@Jefffrey At least, until someone says "stay calm", which really pisses me off.
 
user1804599
This guy is named "hoelzro" and I keep reading it as "hoerenzoon" which is Dutch for "son of a whore."
 
@ThePhD ikr. I've been avoiding craziness all day.
 
frankly i am not sure if people starring my message are agreeing with me or ridiculing me
 
Why is an inflammatory and 100% strawman argument being starred four times? Nobody is saying what jalf is accusing people of saying.
 
3:27 PM
A little bit of both is expected.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think I know.
 
@BartekBanachewicz probabilities suggest the latter
 
@BartekBanachewicz I starred because it's funny, if you really want to know.
Not you being funny, just the message being funny.
 
hur hur i'll just star anything that is remotely about pandering to women in any sense whatsoever, deserved or otherwise, cos then i am progressive and forward-thinking and a good guy! hur hur
 
you forgot "durr"
 
3:28 PM
derp werp
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's possible you could react to people agreeing with a statement you disagree with by taking a moment to rationally consider if that statement has validity. Or you could say that it's an inflammatory strawman.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit says the person who accuses me of saying things I never said
 
I don't know if I'm doing something wrong.
 
3:29 PM
Why is robot avoiding my replies?
 
Well, other than arguing with people who are unargueagainstable
 
I don't feel like pinging him for the fourth time to keep the discussion alive to be honest.
 
this place is in pointless chaos again
 
Just let it die
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit She is beautiful.
 
3:30 PM
it's like conflict is your fetish or sth
 
They will never come to their senses. The topic is too sensationalised. It's more 'hip' to have an extreme view on the subject than it is to actually have any logic to back it up.
 
user1804599
I love my fetishes.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, sexist when a person says "I think women are just inferior. I don't know if it is true, and I have shown no evidence to support the claim, I just think it is true"
 
@Jefffrey Verily
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Haha. And you enjoy more to detonate it than to actually guide a conversation
 
3:30 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That word there, "pandering".
 
That's my type right there
 
Gives me pause for thought.
 
> Kenney Studio allows game developers to create alternative versions of Asset Jesus' assets.
 
Because it's not the first time I see it in discussions like that.
 
3:31 PM
lol wtf this kid made one set of assets and remixed it to hell
and calls himself "Asset Jesus"
 
@EtiennedeMartel You do realise that entire message was a parody, yes?
 
Poe's Law and everything.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Too bad it's not wallpaper size
 
to everyone spending time arguing about sexism
 
@Jefffrey it's not widescreen but it's a normal old-fashioned wallpaper size
 
3:33 PM
nvm, it's XGA
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit (also I'm not sure if you realize this, but that comment was aimed at Bartek, not you)
 
> wallpapers-ipad
 
user1804599
I want to make a video game.
 
@Jefffrey have you considered that maybe there might be a possibility that there really is a pay imbalance and that perhaps you are (perhaps without meaning to) refusing to see it?
 
@Jefffrey The fact that is is 1024x768 is somewhat more important than its filename.
 
3:35 PM
@райтфолд Oh dear.
 
@райтфолд what stops you?
 
user1804599
Nevermind.
 
user1804599
I want to make a compiler.
 
@райтфолд I want to ride my bicycle
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The iPad has a resolution of 1024x768.
 
user1804599
3:35 PM
@jalf me too
 
user1804599
I love my bicycle.
 
Well, you can't. It's mine!
 
@thecoshman Of course there's a possibility, but the fact is that the "evidence" presented here today is no such thing. Why is that so hard to understand?
 
@thecoshman There seems to definitely be a pay imbalance, since women are apparently paid less on average than men.
 
@EtiennedeMartel And? So? Therefore?
 
3:36 PM
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's not "old fashioned".
 
We got it, thanks.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Okay great
 
It's being in use right now by a widely available device.
 
@Jefffrey I'm still on level 18.
@EtiennedeMartel Wonderful. Thanks for your input.
 
3:36 PM
@EtiennedeMartel nope
 
Though, by that argument Objective-C is still a totally relevant language.
 
1024x768 has been discontinued since the first iPad mini
which is old
IIRC there's no iOS device running that resolution for sale atm
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Let's make together a compiler.
 
Are you saying that iPhone 3GS is also old?
 
@Jefffrey but you see that as showing the women are generally doing lower paid jobs compare to men?
 
3:37 PM
> The iPad's (first two generations) touchscreen display is a 1,024 by 768 pixel, 7.75×5.82 in (197×148 mm) liquid-crystal display (diagonal 9.7 in (246.4 mm)), with fingerprint- and scratch-resistant glass.
 
@thecoshman How do you determine, given a man earning X, and a woman earning 80% of X, whether she's unfairly underpaid or simply less valuable/experienced/knowleadgeable/performant/suitable/doing less profitable job?
 
@Jefffrey yes
 
@thecoshman That's a possibility yes.
 
3rd generation is only three years old
I was talking about desktops anyway
 
I think I've read somewhere that women are more likely to get in paid-less jobs that are more "social" (like kindergaarden teachers, how is that spelled?, or nurses).
 
3:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz y u botha wit idiot ;(
 
Not sure about it though. But that would explain it, yes.
 
user1804599
ncurses
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Well, you have an old monitor so that means you're wrong. Or something. I think. That's how the Internet works, right?
 
23 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
Maybe women predominantly go into jobs that are less well-paid regardless of the gender of the individual applicant
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit At least I used "whether" correctly
 
3:39 PM
Which has precisely fuck all to do with employers discriminating.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Or because one of those individuals sucks at negotiations, and the other is a pro at negotiations. Fuck salary. Fuck salary negotiations.
 
@BartekBanachewicz A good start would be to say "if this seems be a general trend for women compared to men in general, even when we correct for years of experience etc, then there's clearly something other than random chance at play"
 
@Jefffrey That raises the question of why we value those jobs less (hence the lower pay)
 
If anything it's arguably that women are on average fulfilling their traditionally proscribed gender roles, despite everybody constantly bitching about it
now I'm not saying that's necessarily true
 
20 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
"women do some things worse than men" - perfectly OK
"women are worse at negotiating wages" - you fucking sexist pig
 
3:39 PM
Just that it would be a huge contributing factor if it were
 
be careful Xeo, be very careful
 
user1804599
Sombrero Galaxy y u no look like a sombrero.
 
I can't say for certain why the difference exists. But from the data I've seen, it doesn't seem to be explained by any of the obvious and justifiable reasons. It doesn't seem to be due to a difference in experience or skill
 
@BartekBanachewicz :D
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Notice how I said "individual".
 
3:40 PM
@TheForestAndTheTrees Because there's less responsibilities probably. Take nurses and a doctor, for example.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit IMO(!), society working out of the job-related gender roles is going to take more than a couple of generations
 
responsibilities
 
Xeo
responsibilities?
 
@Xeo Various studies tend to suggest that seeking for a higher salary and more responsiblities is a seen as a sign of ambition, and ambition is encouraged in men and frowend upon in women.
2
 
@BartekBanachewicz because if we take an average of all jobs done, we are taking out of the equation that some people are shit and some are better. Thus if we still see an imbalance, it means that either women are just generally less good at jobs (thus deserve less pay), that for some reason they tend towards lower paying jobs (leaving the higher paying jobs open for men) or that perhaps there is some sexism going on here that means women get paid less simply because they are women.
 
3:40 PM
@Jefffrey It's got more to do with supply and demand
 
with great responsibilities comes great stress and lower life expectancy
 
@orlp I totally wanted to write that but got distracted by work. :)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That is also an option.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel I suck at negotiating.
 
user1804599
What's with all the moralists in here?
 
3:41 PM
@TheForestAndTheTrees yeah. if it ever does.
 
ncurses and doctors
 
I'm not convinced we should be wasting our time trying to force it
 
Xeo
I also suck at talking to others in general, so there's that.
 
@thecoshman wait so you mean that women, across the globe, should earn more or less the same as men?
 
user1804599
3:41 PM
@Xeo A real programmer.
 
I'm a wimp
@BartekBanachewicz Which men?
 
@thecoshman Well, those are the obvious explanations. There could be any number of other ones, but they quickly start to sound a wee bit contrived.
 
> because if we take an average of all jobs done, we are taking out of the equation that some people are shit and some are better.
 
like, ignoring the fact they might just choose to do different jobs that are less paid
 
what the fuck
this statement is the flaw in your argument that brings it all crashing down
 
3:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You mean, ignoring the many studies that have accounted for that?
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes... of course there will be some jobs better suited to certain genders, but I think those would be in the minority.
 
@jalf What about explanation that women tend to take jobs that are less risky (and thus less paid) and work less hours (because they tend to their families)?
 
it's plainly nonsensical
 
by comparin each field of study in isolation
 
To be honest I would likely give an higher pay to a woman than to a man.
 
3:42 PM
U SEXIST
 
and even comparing people with similar amounts of experience, similar education and similar skill levels
 
@BartekBanachewicz of sweet jesus! should there not be an equal % of men who just want to earn an easy low paying income?
 
@wilx Doesn't explain the observed facts; that women tend to be paid less even when working the same jobs
 
@Jefffrey Strange. You're Italian, you're supposed to have the mysoginist genes.
 
user1804599
3:43 PM
I would keep all money myself, thereby giving all my employees equal amounts of money regardless of job and gender.
 
@jalf ah i love that. School tests also compare people
 
Pay out based on skill
 
I'd do like my old boss did
 
And since everyone is terrible
 
Simply because my vision is "woman == angel, unless proven otherwise"/"man == slimy worm, unless proven otherwise".
 
3:43 PM
@jalf Maybe they should ask for more on job interviews/contracts?
 
spend a minimal amount of money on the company
 
Pay only yourself
 
and go for two weeks in Dubai
 
But that's also probably why I'm not a boss anywhere.
 
@CatPlusPlus that would be exceptionally novel
 
3:43 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, and when school tests show a difference between entire demographics, people react to that, without saying "it's random chance"
 
@CatPlusPlus Typically, you're paid according to how much shit you would eat if something goes wrong.
 
@CatPlusPlus that, on the other hand, seems old hat
 
@thecoshman I don't get why the possibility that the disproportion is natural is so shocking
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's racist :P
 
That being said, women live longer than men
 
3:44 PM
@EtiennedeMartel That's only up to certain level
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's not shocking, you just have been unable to come up with an explanation for it
 
do you think that men in general want to live shorter?
I don't think so
 
Thanks to stupid discussions like this one, I do
 
I think it's the unfair society that makes men live shorter
the whole sexism
 
That had to do with wars, no?
 
3:44 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I fail to see how that explains or justifies the wage gap
 
@jalf well explain the life length gap
what, do you want to say that it's BIOLOGICAL?
 
@BartekBanachewicz men must be bad at bargaining with the devil
 
user1804599
I got gap bonuses in THUG. Does that count?
 
come on say it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why? I don't see how it is relevant to the current discussion of (1) whether women are paid less for the same work, and (2) whether women should be paid less for the same work
 
3:46 PM
@CatPlusPlus Every discussion is stupid.
 
@jalf Because it's trolling.
 
@jalf Frankly the issue of men living shorter lives is more important imho
 
@BartekBanachewicz Jesus fucking christ are you really this stupid what is your problem? I know you are more intelligent than this. Quit it with the fucking strawman. This has not a fucking fuck to do with what we are discussing
 
It doesn't have to be relevant, it just has to be inflamatory.
 
Only because you are a man
 
3:46 PM
it's human life after all
 
Get on top, get paid a lot, don't care about anyone else
 
@Jefffrey that and men have traditionally been put towards more physically dangerous jobs whilst women put towards no jobs. That tradition is very much a past thing, but it's impact would still be felt.
 
That's my goal
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, life length is undeniably tied to biology. What's the point, though?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Breaking news: "Man says men's issues are more important than womens' issues". Refuses to believe that men treat women differently than they treat men"
 
user1804599
3:46 PM
I don't want to live long.
 
@CatPlusPlus see, you could do that if not fucking people grabbing your ankles and yelling how selfish and sexist you are
 
Yes, you do.
 
Shoot em
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes undeniably?
 
user1804599
Life is too terrible for that.
 
3:47 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Biology is the study of life.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe he's one of those biological essentialists.
 
OTOH women wages are undeniably NOT tied to biology
 
Then biology covers everything.
 
If you want to deny that, you're undeniably stupid.
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see how you got that.
 
There we go with insults.
 
3:47 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think that's the point @jalf is trying to make
 
sometimes I wonder if robot really is an adult
4
 
I expect more from Robot than this.
 
You're all nerds
 
The weather is gorgeous today
 
no it's not
you sexist
 
3:48 PM
weatherist
 
That's because you live in wrong country
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, that's exactly what a strawman is. You could ask him what his point is instead.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit He's French. Say something we don't know next time.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I want to say that it very probably is. I saw some studies about that recently, where they'd compared men and women all over the world, from different cultures with different lifestyles, precisely because if it wasn't biological, then there ought to be exceptions to it somewhere.
 
user1804599
When I reach amnesia, gavage, Java or Eurabia, it's finito.
 
3:48 PM
I think you are too obsessed with "strawmen arguments" and you are starting to see them everywhere.
 
@Jefffrey It's a textbook example vOv
 
oops, boost::bimap::multiset_of::erase probably invalidates existing iterators innit
 
user1804599
 
What about that explanation?
 
3:49 PM
OR DOES IT
 
But they found it to be true everywhere. In Russia, in the Bible Belt in the US, among rich, among poor, in indigenous cultures, in the West, in Asia, everywhere. So yes, i suspect there's a strong biological component to that
 
I'm gonna make some chicken fingers
 
how abouts we just flip the question directly, if two candidates for a job are identical (as far as you can tell based on question you deem relevant) should the not be paid equally regardless of gender?
 
@wilx Oh, her. She's not a feminist.
 
@jalf didn't you just say that women are paid less p much everywhere too?
 
user1804599
3:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus gimme some
 
@райтфолд that's
surprisingly cute
 
@wilx 404 on the link, lol
 
@райтфолд No
 
@EtiennedeMartel Oh! So her arguments are invalid then? Mmmkay.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus fuck you
 
3:50 PM
@jalf yes, but I was under impression that women are paid less in general. Is that wrong?
 
@Jefffrey WFM.
 
@райтфолд BOW TO THE CHICKEN GAP
2
 
@wilx I know it's not her talking.
 
Here, the wages are so taboo you can't even talk about it with your colleagues
 
@thecoshman Nobody has ever suggested otherwise. Of course that's the case.
 
3:51 PM
@EtiennedeMartel How does that matter?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know. I know they are paid less in the west. I think it is true for most of the rest of the world too. Your point?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It doesn't.
 
@EtiennedeMartel How does that matter?
 
It doesn't either.
 
@Rerito Oooh nooo you can't talk about salary with your colleagues
 
3:51 PM
I don't know if you realize this, but we actually know a few things about the science of biology. We know that biology influences how long we live
 
Glad you brought it up.
 
I'm just dropping words there.
 
@jalf well if it's true for the whole world...
 
But we have not yet established a gene for wages
 
3:51 PM
@Rerito Private conversations with HR and maybe your boss but it's rather hush hush
 
user1804599
@Rerito So talk about it. Taboo is what makes everything terrible.
 
Wages are determined by the awesome gene
 
@jalf still, this different approach is puzzling
 
@Rerito No, don't. You'll make people feel deeply uncomfortable, especially if you turn out to earn more than them.
 
3:52 PM
@BartekBanachewicz remember, the key point is not just that women are paid less, but that they are paid less when compared with men of equal footing for their job.
 
@Jefffrey Probably, the article I linked references that.
 
Xeo
Wages are determined by "fuck you, fuck you, and fuck you especially"
 
@BartekBanachewicz You mean, like my different approach to riding a bike and typing on a keyboard?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit In Paris? Everybody is paid shit.
 
Gotta be the one distributing the money, otherwise you're fucked regardless
 
3:52 PM
@wilx Yeah, that's what I meant. I can see your link, but first link in it goes to 404.
 
Here's a thing you might be unaware of. How long we live is determined by our physical bodies. How much we are paid is determined by other people
Do you see a difference yet?
 
@jalf the observable differences are, as you put it, true everywhere. In Russia, in the Bible Belt in the US, among rich, among poor, in indigenous cultures, in the West, in Asia, everywhere. women are paid less.
 
To anyone who's unhappy with their salary: we're hiring.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So you are saying that the wage gap is due to biology then?
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's not the worst thing. The worst thing is the insane real estate laws
 
3:53 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I'm happy with my salary
 
@EtiennedeMartel But do you serve chicken
 
I'm not happy with my work :(
 
@jalf if you get shot, I am p sure your life length is determined by other people
 
@EtiennedeMartel tried that, apparently you need to move countries first to really show you want to work for your company :\
 
"So, the AAUW report compares the pay of male lawyers with that of female librarians; of male athletes with that of female communications assistants. That's not a comparison between people who do the same work." -- lol@methodology
 
user1804599
3:54 PM
@BartekBanachewicz So basically, in all the shit places?
 
@CatPlusPlus We even put it on poutine.
 
Xeo
@thecoshman Didn't they simply forget you or something?
 
@jalf I'm saying that what you used to back up the claim that life length is strictly biological applies to wages too
 
How is skill equality even determined in a study like this
 
@BartekBanachewicz I humored you with your ridiculous strawmanning. Now it's time to bring it back to relevance. Do you think the wage gap is biologically determined?
 
3:54 PM
Dunno
 
forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/… -- "The Department of Labor’s Time Use Survey, for example, finds that the average full-time working man spends 8.14 hours a day on the job, compared to 7.75 hours for the full-time working woman. Employees who work more likely earn more. Men working five percent longer than women alone explains about one-quarter of the wage gap."
 
Maybe wages should be public
 
@Xeo no, apparently I came across as just wanting any other job, rather than to work there.
 
Publicising wages destroys companies
 
@Jefffrey no
 
3:55 PM
pretty funny all of this started because of one sentence
 
Or are you just trying to make up absurd nonsensical arguments to distract?
 
@CatPlusPlus ?
 
and bartek saying we should abandon the ship
 
user1804599
Speaking of women and wages, I should figure out how to implement select.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Dunno, some companies seem to fare just fine with open salaries
 
3:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz He never said strictly. He said it's a strong component. You really can't help it, can you? @Jeffrey I see straw man arguments everywhere, because they are everywhere when Bartek is around.
 
Yeah but most of them are run by idiots and staffed by idiots
 
@Xeo probably the ones that pay people fairly
 
@jalf In principle, I think yes. By both genes of people who tend to favor males and by genes of women who live under that. Society is based on biology in the end.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Where are you again, Montreal or something?
 
@jalf Yeah.
 
3:55 PM
I don't want some guy who gets out of college to ask for my salary solely because I'm also going to get out of college in a bit
 
Xeo
@thecoshman How do you pat people unfairly?
 
regardless of whatever difference is between me and them
 
@BartekBanachewicz So what mechanism do you propose influences this? How does biology cause women to be paid less?
 
user1804599
Ik wil een frikandel speciaal.
 
Xeo
Patting some people more than others?
 
3:56 PM
@orlp Didn't @BartekBanachewicz tell you to bin it? :D
 
Xeo
Aw man, don't just go and edit your typo!
 
@Xeo vOv pat the man on the head and the lady on the...
 
@райтфолд gadver
 
@BartekBanachewicz (And do you believe that because biology makes it so, we should accept it and stop trying to change it?)
 
@jalf there's no "wage gen", as you put it. It's complicated.
 
3:56 PM
The funny part is that you're expected to tell your wage to many recruiters here (mainly from so called consulting firms)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Montreal's not that far from Michigan... but actually happy in my job at the moment.
 
Xeo
@райтфолд We got a Belgian fried potatoes shop close to work, that also has frikandels
 
@BartekBanachewicz And yet, you claim that it is biologically determined. How?
 
I'm awesome and everyone else isn't so I deserve to get paid more
 
And if you refuse, the guy just get stucked in a while loop and keeps asking
 
3:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz so what, we just accept it? Never question that actually it shouldn't matter what gender a person is?
 
@jalf I think that we don't need to equalize that in order to have a nice society.
 
@jalf Do you belive it is not biology making you want to try to change it?
 
user1804599
@Xeo frikandellen or frikadellen?
 
Please tell me your argument is stronger than "I want it to be biologically determined. I have no clue why but I am sure it is true"
 
Xeo
@райтфолд frikandel
 
3:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz so you don't think men and women should be paid the same
 
user1804599
@Xeo lekker
 
Well, yeah you seem like a good programmer. But holy shit you are depressing some times.
 
@jalf or something
 
@Blob I believe that it doesn't matter what causes it. We should try to change it
 
Xeo
@райтфолд ye
 
user1804599
3:58 PM
Put ketchup, mayo and onion on it.
 
I believe I don't care
 
user1804599
It's extremely good.
 
Biology changes all the time though.
 
So maybe you should be paid less actually.
 
@jalf I think people should be paid enough to be happy. If that means men need more, so be it; I don't see it as a problem if every woman and every man is happy with their salary.
 
3:58 PM
Because you lower the mood of everyone else.
 
I wanna be rich and careless
 
Xeo
@райтфолд s/mayo/special fried potato sauce/, in their case
 
@BartekBanachewicz and yet you seemed to believe that it was quite important to equalize how long we live
 
@jalf come on, that was a fucking troll
 
~~~free like a bird~~~~
 
3:58 PM
lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz here's a tip: not every woman and every man is happy with their salary
 
user1804599
@Xeo en een broodje kroket erbij
 
user1804599
goulashkroket
 
@jalf can't please everyone vOv.
 
I also want a personal army of robots just in case
 
3:59 PM
@BartekBanachewicz but what if women aren't able to get paid enough to be happy and have to settle for less because if they are simply told no, whilst men are given the rises when they ask, simply because they are men?
 
@BartekBanachewicz But this was the basis of your fucking argument
 
Xeo
@райтфолд No clue what you said there.
 
You never know when you'll have to conquer the world
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz not with such a small one
 
You literally said that it doesn't matter as long as everyone is happy with their wage
 
Xeo
3:59 PM
Something about croquettes
 
@BartekBanachewicz Wait if the claims of inequality are borne out of unhappiness with that state of affairs?
 
Since not everyone is happy with their wage, it does matter, by your own logic
 
@jalf well, that's the utopian goal
 
user1804599
 
Ok, let's cut the crap. Can we just agree that your argument boils down to "I don't actually give a fuck if women are paid less. It's their problem, not mine"?
 

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