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7:00 PM
oy @RMartinho you scumbag
 
Perelandra (also titled Voyage to Venus in a later edition published by Pan Books) is the second book in the Space Trilogy of C. S. Lewis, set in the Field of Arbol. It was first published in 1943. Plot summary The story starts with the philologist Elwin Ransom, some years after his return from Mars at the end of Out of the Silent Planet, receiving a new mission from Oyarsa, the angelic ruler of Mars. After summoning a (fictionalized) version of C.S. Lewis to his country home, Ransom explains to Lewis that he (Ransom) is to travel to Perelandra (Venus), where is located a new Garden of...
 
I have decided that you are officially a liar and it is not possible to implement a lexer as a finite state machine
 
Ha
 
as the only way to construct identifiers is to push back each character on to a separate stack
which makes it a push-down automaton, not a deterministic finite automaton
 
@DeadMG Why do you need a stack?
Also, I never said you could implement all lexers as an FSM.
 
7:03 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Cover the pages with a "magnetically" adhesive thin layer of plastic that can be written on with markers.
That or just don't write on em.
 
@StackedCrooked No, you don't get it. It's not about the physical effects.
 
to push the characters back on
 
@StackedCrooked Right, that's what I do.
 
@DeadMG Sounds like you're talking about the parser, not the lexer. But still should be doable without a stack if I recall.
 
or I guess you could implement it more directly as a regex instead of just "anything that wasn't already matched"
 
7:04 PM
@DeadMG Why a stack instead of some other data structure?
 
no, parsers are PDAs, not DFAs
wtf else do I push characters on to as they don't meet my other criteria?
 
@DeadMG A regex represents an FSM.
@DeadMG You need backtracking?
 
unless I want to implement is_letter for Unicode
 
@robjb No, that's wrong.
 
which I don't
 
7:06 PM
Would you use std::stack if you need a stack? I actually prefer use the vector instead.
 
then the only definition of "character that can be used as identifier" is "not whitespace/comment/etc"
 
Nevermind, I'm not thinking straight today, you're completely right @RMartinhoFernandes
 
@robjb you are thinking in curves?
Ok, I should start playing Beyond Good & Evil now. Rebooting to Windows
 
@StackedCrooked More like circles
Although circles are a subset of curves I suppose :p
 
[a-zpluseveryothervalididentifiercharacter][a-zpluseveryothervalididentifiercharacter0-9]+
 
7:09 PM
For some reason I was thinking parsers did lexing, and lexers did parsing. I should probably get something to eat.
 
@DeadMG Would this monstrous regex do the job?
(I'm ignoring practicality for a while)
 
hey guys
 
I've atoned by posting a serious answer for once.
 
@KerrekSB Does that work in Java?
 
7:15 PM
no
I don't think that would work
unless I want a 65,000 character regex
 
Right, but if a 65000 character regex does it, then an FSM does it.
A gigantic one.
(Some regex engines have ways to match by Unicode categories)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Posting a serious answer? On occasion it does...
 
@KerrekSB lol, I meant CRTP.
 
yeah
 
Does it work with Java generics?
 
7:17 PM
but then I'd just be implementing is_letter for Unicode
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, there are no templates in Java, so the technical meaning of it is a bit different
 
@DeadMG Well, that makes your job difficult. But doesn't make me a liar :)
 
well
 
In C++ you'd have to add static_assert(std::is_base_of(Base<T>, T)).
 
it's pretty fuckin' impossible to implement a Unicode lexer as an FSM
 
7:20 PM
@DeadMG Are you being the best you that you can be?
 
yes
unless you want me to do Unicode proper, and there's no way I'm touching that shit
 
@KerrekSB oh, I only saw the question now. I thought you had edited your previous answer!
@DeadMG I still don't understand why.
You can implement is_letter with a lookup table.
 
@DeadMG Do what all good languages do and leave it to someone else.
 
lol
and is_digit?
 
Do you need indic numerals in your source code?
 
7:22 PM
I have no desire to actually mess with any Unicode code, at all, it's just incredibly messy and WTF and I'm not going there
 
Then you have no choice but to use good old [a-z_][a-z_0-9]+, I guess.
The C++ standard library doesn't have Unicode categorization?
 
or my previous strategy, which was "Anything that isn't puncutation/whitespace"
no, the C++ Standard library doesn't have Unicode anything
at all
ever
which blows
 
Oh dammit, not even in <regex>.
Because they inherited the braindead JavaScript regexes.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes You have the attractive wregex, and the ever famous wsregex_iterator...
@RMartinhoFernandes std-regex supports many different standards, allegedly
 
@KerrekSB But none has matching according to unicode properties.
I want PCRE or .NET regexes in C++!
 
7:32 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course not! :-)
Does ICU have a regex library?
 
So you can't do \p{Letter} to match letters.
 
More importantly, is there even a standard for Unicode regex?
 
PCRE and .NET support that kind of match.
@KerrekSB There is no standard for regexes, other than ECMAScript.
 
Is PCRE a standard?
 
Which is universally known to be fucked up when it comes to Unicode.
@KerrekSB Nope.
@KerrekSB Oh, there's also the various POSIX flavours: awk, grep, etc.
 
7:37 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes What we really need is a standard iterator that iterates over all possible flavours of regexes.
 
I think that generalized FSM is fine for regexes
I don't see that they need their own syntax and Standards
 
Well, you won't have much luck to have them included in standard C++ if they're not standardized.
Which is why you only get ECMAScript and POSIX.
 
no, I don't think any of those regexes should be included
they suck a tremendous amount of balls
 
What's the big deal with Unicode anyway?
God created ASCII first; it's His chosen encoding.
 
bwahahahahahaha
 
7:41 PM
That's what my sunday school teacher taught me anyway.
 
firstly, God is a myth, and one which you have to be hilariously stupid or incredibly desperate to believe in
 
And God does not write in American.
 
and secondly, Unicode is useful for those of us who want to deal with the 5-6 billion humans, i.e. most of the planet, that do not write English
 
Like God.
Hebrew and shit.
Or Arabic.
 
it was Hebrew
 
7:42 PM
Jesus is a cracker white boy just like me.
 
Jesus, if he ever existed, was an Arab
 
@DeadMG The Islam has a God as well.
AFAIK the Quran is written in Arabic or something.
 
I give equally little shit about anyone's various flavours of God
 
I'm just playing safe.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "or something" is hilarious
 
7:44 PM
@keithlayne Well, I use it a marker that I don't really know what I'm talking about.
 
or care
we all know it's the Chinese and Japanese markets that actually care about tech products
 
And they write funny.
 
And they got them there slanty eyes
 
@DeadMG I think large parts were Aramaic...
 
I forward a motion that we ban keith.layne from the room
 
7:46 PM
Ah! That's the "and shit" part.
 
all in favour, add him to your ignore lists
 
@DeadMG What happened?
 
I waste too much of my life on religious nutters as is, and have no desire to spend even more here
or trolls
the difference is meaningless to me
 
In the eight messages he has ever posted, I don't see anything that's blatantly trollism, so I won't agree with you.
You're free to handle your plonk file as you wish, though.
 
@DeadMG Seriously? "God created ASCII first" is not clearly a joke?
 
7:48 PM
indeed
for whilst I forward such a motion, there is no compelling force causing you to agree with me
and since he is now on my ignore list, I shall not care either way what you do
 
@jalf Purchased Beyond Good & Evil on Steam. Download gonna take a while on my slow connection though.
 
Hey
 
also
 
Did I miss something about the etiquette here? Like the new guy can't make a joke or something?
 
7:50 PM
I really need to get into this "source control" shit
this is the third time this week I've re-written my FSM stuff :(
 
I seem to remember an STL function or library that, when included, gives you += operator for free when + has been defined. (I am talking about operator overloading, btw)
 
it's Boost
 
@eisbaw I think "boost operators"
 
which part?
ok
 
and it's the other way around- you get + for +=
 
7:51 PM
@keithlayne Don't worry, he's having a bad day. You did nothing wrong.
 
okay, interesting
 
the canonical form of operator+ is T ret(*this); ret += arg; return ret;
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What does it look like when he has a good day? ;-)
 
7:52 PM
@KerrekSB I have good days?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Please don't take this the wrong way, but I know I did nothing wrong.
 
@DeadMG You tell me. But you'll soon be a renowned language designer, so you should have something to look forward to.
 
@DeadMG thx ;)
 
the only thing I have to look forward to is being kicked out of university, and my parents (and job interviewers) telling me I'm a failure
 
I think you'll have to write a book, though. The language alone isn't quite enough.
 
7:53 PM
@keithlayne FTR, we don't have any formal etiquette to abide here. Just common sense.
 
See, I would have so totally followed that up with another joke, no fun.
 
also, I'm known for being a raging psychopath half the time, and an incredible genius the other half
@KerrekSB That won't be hard. "I cut the "C" part of the language because it was fucking stupid. Then I replaced the "++" part of the language with a non-gimped version. Then I was done."
mega moneys plix!
 
That's not a book. That's a paragraph.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It'll be cheaper to ship, I guess.
 
"Also, I sprinkled in a massive dose of genius when it came to implementing the result."
 
7:56 PM
"LightC - The Lightweight Programming Language"
 
I think WideC is too fat.
 
(So much for the question who here thinks of themselves as a genius :-) .)
 
oooh oooh
how about ArrogantC?
 
What about "Apocalyp-C"?
 
7:57 PM
oooh oooh
how about "The Holy C"?
 
lol
 
@DeadMG Yes, quite. I'd support that.
 
really, I'd just pick D, but it's already taken by some shitty language
D++?
 
It's a very big building, are you sure you can support it?
@DeadMG Yours is not "All the crap of D with some accidental stuff thrown in that turned out to be really great."
Which I assume is what C++ means (but with the crap of C, not D).
 
true true
for a start, I designed it to be fucking awesome from the beginning
can't I just call it that?
Fucking Awesome C?
 
8:02 PM
Look at what that did for Bra*nfuck.
 
Election is on!
 
@awoodland made it?
 
I'll shorten it to FAC
and tell everyone it's an acronym with deep personal meaning
or that I just forgot the meaning
 
Then the second version is FAC-U.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes looks like I did :)
 
8:03 PM
I don't think you have a shot, but congratulations.
 
I think "I forgot the meaning" will make a fine answer as for what it stands for
 
So US Congress decided that Pizza is a vegetable
 
Ha! But there will be a bunch of people that will know it!
At least me. Remember: I always remember things.
 
eh
what do I care?
 
I'll blackmail you.
 
8:04 PM
not sure where they get the idea from
 
Threaten to spill the beans.
 
are you kidding? I'd love to tell everyone
wait till there's books like "FAC Primer" on the shelves
then tell everyone it stands for "Fucking Awesome C"
that's be the epic WinRAR
 
@RMartinhoFernandes seems a bit unlikely I'll be top 4 if the primaries are a good predictor
 
or I could invent something worse
like TALCP: the author likes child porn
 
@awoodland Yeah, that's what I was basing on.
 
8:06 PM
@awoodland The primaries were more about downvoting genesis than anything else
4
 
@DeadMG Now that's tasteless.
 
as I am
 
It also looks a lot like TAOCP.
 
TAUCP: Total Annihilation Units Compilation Pack
 
Someone keeps downvoting me whenever I say something about serialization. Hm. Am I totally off about that, or is it just a stalker?
 
8:08 PM
Mention serialization factories!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Unfortunately it's not a Java question :-(
Jeez, 28 actual candidates! What was the point of the primaries?
 
Well, my upvote (for the content) counteracted the downvote.
@KerrekSB That count is the total.
Only 12 made it to this phase.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, that makes sense.
@RMartinhoFernandes Thanks!
 
you know
I'm actually liking LightC
 
Damn, too late.
 
8:12 PM
me, bringing the light of my genius to the uneducated numpties
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What for?
 
@KerrekSB Sometimes when someone is in the process of posting what are two messages that are logically one, I try to interject something silly.
I tried to put "Yes, I do." After "you know", but I was too late.
 
Here is the last question that got me a slew of questionable arguments with one guy... Admittedly I first misread the question, but I think the final answer covers all the bases. But that one guy keeps telling me that reading bytes from a stream doesn't work the way I say.
@DeadMG I'm sure that's how everyone will read it, yes.
 
lol
 
@KerrekSB Loki?
 
8:18 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, indeed. Know him/her?
@DeadMG Any chance the language will have a smaller rule set than C++?
 
lol
@KerrekSB He has a few entrenched opinions, that I sometimes disagree with, but I've found him to be a helpful fella. I doubt he's stalking you.
 
yes
it will have a vastly smaller set than C++
mostly because C++ has a shitbunch of rules that are from C which I cut, and a shitbunch that said "Except when... " which I also cut
 
@KerrekSB As if that was hard.
 
@DeadMG Interesting. Sounds like you could really be onto something!
 
duh
 
8:21 PM
Yay, future sight.
 
it's going to be one of the fastest, most powerful, flexible languages ever written by a very considerable margin
 
(I know, of course you'd have to think that anyway.)
@DeadMG No doubt.
 
hey
name another language that lets you parse XML files and connect to databases at compile-time
 
@DeadMG boo.
That was really easy.
 
isn't that a .NET language?
 
8:22 PM
Yes.
 
not really compile-time then is it?
more like JIT time
 
No, compile-time.
 
You have me there... why would I need a compile-time database connection?
 
As in, during the process that converts text to IL.
 
obviously, so you can ask it what it's structure is
so that you can automatically generate code that interfaces it
like with LINQ, except no external tools required
 
8:25 PM
So, you can call it whatever you want, but it is the compiler that opens the XML files and connects to databases, not the JIT.
 
ok
I have to admit I didn't know that their syntactic macros went quite that far
it's still cheating to do it in .NET, though
 
really slow, and shitty semantics
 
Actually, why are you bothering with all this parsing nonsense.
Write the language grammar in XML!
 
Enterprise-y!
 
8:26 PM
because I have a little part which is only LALR by the tiniest skin of it's teeth
and will not survive regular parser generation
 
Make a nice DTD for it, -//DMG//DTD LightC 2.0//EN"
 
DTDs are for pussies.
Make a XSD.
 
and you can use any number of XML tools to process it!
@RMartinhoFernandes Verbose nonsense. DTDs rule!
 
Then you write the code generation in XSLT!
@KerrekSB Oh, I thought you were going for verbose. Wasn't that why you mentioned XML?
 
Anyway. then we'd have <function><arg type="int">x</arg><body><conditional>...</conditional><return>foo</return></func‌​tion>
 
8:28 PM
Please help me understanding this sentence : parameterized type of a function template
 
OMG stop it.
 
Classes are now fully self-descriptive!
 
Brings back memories.
 
And we get IPC free over SOAP
 
@MrAnubis Can you provide some more context?
 
8:29 PM
deduction process compares the types of an argument of a function call with the corresponding parameterized type of a function template and attempts to conclude the correct substitution for one or more of the deduced parameters. Each argument-parameter pair is analyzed independently, and if the conclusions differ in the end, the deduction process fails
 
@MrAnubis template <typename> class Foo; is a template; Foo<int> is a type. You can call the latter the "parametrized type" if you want.
 
my ebook got some typo?
 
I have two votes left. Who should they go to? I don't know any of these people...
Maybe the townhall chat log reveals some of their weaknesses.
 
I practically voted only for those I have ever ran into and didn't show bad stuff.
 
Anna Lear deserves a vote
she's a mod on Programmers and does a good job
 
8:31 PM
@DeadMG Yeah, I voted for her.
 
aah thanks @KerrekSB
 
@DeadMG Interesting
 
i voted for 2 guys Boltclock (random) :) and awoodland
 
Time to kill some macros :)
 
so suppose i have function (i'm very stupid so please bear with me) : template<typename T> func(T a, T b); , then how would this line go with it deduction process compares the types of an argument of a function call with the corresponding parameterized type of a function template
 
8:36 PM
I might just go to bed soon
been up a long time, travelling all day, etc etc
 
foo( a,b); -> a ==int and b== float
 
@DeadMG If I'm in a moving vehicle for more than 15 minutes, I fall asleep.
 
@MrAnubis That'd be ambiguous and wouldn't compile.
 
so parametrized type will be like foo<int> at first then foo<float> ?
 
Either say f(float(a), b) or f<float>(a, b).
 
8:39 PM
does f<int>(a,b) convert b or not?
 
@KerrekSB yes , ok lets take func(a,b) -> a==b==int
 
@keithlayne Yes.
 
@MrAnubis That's fine.
The question is whether you can deduce T from the arguments.
There has to be a unique best fit.
 
so in this case a== int will be compared to what parametrized type ? ( that word parametrized is not looking good to me in the sentence :( )
foo<int> ?
 
It deduces T = int first and then checks if the arguments match for f<int>.
The latter being the "parametrized type".
 
8:43 PM
The full type is specified by the signature for a generic function? Or something else?
 
@KerrekSB but you just had said Foo<int> is parametrized type (from your very first explanation)
 
Why does the Visual Studio installer take so goddamn long?
Hey it's finished now!
 
@MrAnubis sorry, I meant foo<int>. Or whatever your template was called...
 
@StackedCrooked 16 seconds. That was fast.
That must be a record.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I should have complained sooner.
 
8:45 PM
:)
 
@MrAnubis foo<T>(T,T) with T==int, it fits...I know you know this, is the wording the issue?
 
@keithlayne yes , the sentences in this ebook are sometimes very confusing :(
 
Well, I'd call it "type induction" to specify T as a template parameter
"type deduction" is the opposite operation, the real question is T, but T is fundamental to the type specification
 
plus on that i had to skip completely one chapter Instantiation , since it was too hard on me ( i am very idiot , i get things lately as everyone knows here already :D )
 
@MrAnubis Is it a good book at least?
 
8:50 PM
@keithlayne awesome but sometimes author can be confusion depending on your previous c++ knowledge)
 
@MrAnubis so was your question answered at all?
 
@MrAnubis Hey, come on, stop calling yourself stupid and idiot. You keep striving to learn. That's the important part.
 
@MrAnubis If you call yourself an idiot, I fear all is lost for me :(
 
lol
 
8:54 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes :)
 
Is there a better editor than gedit?
 
@LewsTherin hi , what's up ?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Nooo
@MrAnubis Reading as usual, you?
 
Back when I was in school my teacher said (I was using emacs) "why don't you use a real editor like vi?"
 
8:56 PM
@LewsTherin more or less same here :D
 
Ugh, vi sucks.
 
I felt like the gauntlet was down.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't want one that makes me feel like an average user (an idiot) lol
 
So I typed 'vi' on a stinking SPARCstation
 
@LewsTherin Hey! I am a vim fanatic, and I still think I am an average user!
 
8:57 PM
and had to figure out the key combination on that piece of junk to reboot
 
@RMartinhoFernandes And you expect me to know how to use it :O xD
 
because ':' was apparently the only key combination I missed as I panicked to escape evil vi
 
@MrAnubis Oh well we are learning to be programmers, what can we expect :)
 
@LewsTherin You asked for an editor better than gedit.
 
8:58 PM
I use it all the time now
 
I use ZQ or ZZ to quit.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Gedit is OK but the fact that I have to press tab every time is annoying.
 
@LewsTherin You mean for indentation?
Are you sure you're not missing some setting or something?
 
i got the job offer from a company by the way , but they use java mainly , so i am still thinking whether i should join or not
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I set everything right, nothing works..
 

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