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00:21
This is still boring...
/me takes his non-deduced context and goes home...
 
1 hour later…
01:47
@JamesMcNellis Return!
02:02
@Gman Who's that?
@Drahakar An SO member
So GMan, what are you up to?
I have returned.
Not much, slacking.
Though, maybe I should join the C# room instead...
02:12
@JamesMcNellis :/
Hey Bruce
How's it going GMan?
Sitting next to you.
:O
O:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
02:18
So what are we suppose to talk about?
The instructions say that this room is for "discussions related to this language."
Okay. C++ is a language. Now what?
So what's everyone's opinion on cuddling?...
wtf
Braces go on next line. No exceptions, or you're dumb.
throw InvalidBracePlacement();
02:28
Is the following valid: template <int> struct test {}; int main { test<int()>(); }
No. main needs a parameter list.
:|
lol, is the following valid: template <int> struct test {}; int main() { test<int()>(); }
02:32
You win!
T() is an explicit type conversion (that happens to create a value-initialized instance of T and type conversions are permitted in ICEs so long as the target type is an integral or enumeration type.
Clause 5 FTW
:) now someone else stimulate a conversation. we need like 20 or 50 people
C++ is a rather boring topic for a chat room...
2
yea. im in the "tavern" but nobodies saying anything in there either
I'm in C# but people there are even more boring than here...
02:36
i mean like c++ on freenode, that keeps up fairly well (did when i last frequented it) because people pop in and out asking random things
Uhh, present company excluded.
lol ouch
Roger Pate introduced me to ##c++
He's no on my "list of people that have introduced me to things that waste large amounts of my time," along with my former coworker who introduced me to SO
Yeah. I stumbled upon it myself and we had a short "oh, it's you!" exchange. Haven't gone in a while, though. Do you still go there?
Haha.
I just got Internet in my new apartment so I haven't been in about a week. I don't want to IRC at work :-P
Ha ha ha. Speak of the devil!
02:38
Haha, sweet. :]
I knew I felt my ears burning
lol. So Roger, why don't you post more answers on SO?
I got tired of repeating the same old things
I mostly just read, editing as I go
I feel you there. I'm contemplating making a "How do I manage resources?" question that has everything I can think of. That way I can link to it and ignore the question.
SO has made me want to start a blog for that type of thing
still haven't gotten around to that...
02:42
another blog would be nice
the biggest change SO has made for me is the realization that everything I do should be online and accessible to the world
e.g. I've been learning/helping on irc for ~15 years, and all that will never help anyone else again, ever
yea :/
~2002 our channel did an implementation of the stdlib (which is still on sf.net, so available); turned out not to be useful as a product, but was a great learning experience
the mailing list was never archived online, nor the irc discussions, etc.; all gone
The whole stdlib? Impressive.
relied on an installed C stdlib for those facilities, I think it was missing only <locale> and <valarray> at the end
02:45
Wow. Wish we would do something like that on SO.
@GMan: not sure I'd recommend it, the intricacies of vector<bool>, why you can't add template parameters (with default values), which data structures besides red-black trees can be used for a map (skip lists are a good alternative), etc. can be better learned in a different form
it was 8-10 people participating, all but one or two in college or HS at the time, to give some context
well, speaking of context, making it work in msvc6 was also nearly required at that time :)
Are you all working at the same place?
I'm not, I doubt they are
Ah, MSVC6, eel. :]
Nope; I don't know where any of these people even are :-D
02:49
hahah :P
I'm to the left of GMan.
you know where I am
124
A: Difference between URI and URL

Roger PateURIs identify and URLs locate; however, locations are also identifications, so every URL is also a URI, but there are URIs which are not URLs. Examples Roger Pate This is my name, which is identification. It is like a URI, but cannot be a URL, as it tells you nothing about my location or how...

I'm to the right of Bruce.
I'm lost?
I think I saw and contemplated adding James on facebook, but decided against it. :P
02:51
Yeah, when I see me, I generally turn and run away too
lol
@RogerPate Nice answer dude :o
I've been thinking more about twitter for SO-type of connections
if only I'd read it more often
I don't know. I think writing a working implementation of something like the standard library is very useful. I wrote (85% of) an implementation of the C and C++ preprocessors earlier this year and learned more about how it works doing that than any amount of reading of documentation or tips and tricks or macro libraries could have taught me.
[To continue a conversation from earlier]
Yeah. I wanted to when Alexandrescu gave his ranges talk, but never had time. Anyone try that?
02:53
Try implementing a ranges library?
@Gman What ranges talk? (I love this guy)
Yeah. "Iterators Must Go"
@James He recommended re-writing the stdlib with ranges instead of iterators. Much more elegant
@GMan: Yeah, I've read the presentation. I wasn't 100% convinced.
D: Which parts?
@JamesMcNellis definitely. but two of the thee specific things I mentioned above only apply to the stdlib, like the parameter name issue being reserved identifiers — not so useful in non-stdlib code
02:57
Links for people who haven't read it.
http://www.boostcon.com/site-media/var/sphene/sphwiki/attachment/2009/05/08/iterators-must-go.pdf
Hello
hi
Much more activity here at this time compared to any given morning
@GMan: learning python over the past two years + his range talk has proven to me that STL-style iterators, particularly as begin/end pairs, suck
I should really learn more languages :[
03:00
@RogerPate: That's true, and it's things like that that I left for the end and ended up not implementing (like multicharacter character literals and UCNs).
What are ranges, exactly? Anything like .NET IEnumerables?
A way of representing a collection of elements
@Drahakar @spoulson: see "Iterators Must Go" (paper, slides, and presentation, iirc) by alexandrescu; I don't know .net enough to say exactly
IEnumerable is basically a lazy list.
Will check out the writeup
@Gman: I included a bit of detail on iterators at stackoverflow.com/q/3872681
the rationale link there points to something that hints at the underlying cause: they're abstracted from pointers
03:04
reading :]
@GMan: I think ranges are A Good Idea, and I think they are very useful. However, I am not fully convinced by his assertion that ranges should be used for everything.
python-style (and other languages') generators (and .net ienumerable, I take it) don't fit that well
@JamesMcNellis Ah: anything off the top?
@RogerPate Kinda disappointing they denied that change.
I'm not sure I get the range concept. It still seems like an iterator if it has a popFront()/popBack() method.
yeah, I thought it was simple and a superset of the current paper. it greatly simplifies the kind of example I presented, but it does conflict with concepts — if they want to bring that in the next update, they're right to reject this now
03:16
yeah, true.
@GMan: Nothing specific off the top of my head. I'd have to go back and review the presentation. On the one hand, they can be used to dramatically reduce the complexity of calling some algorithms and make them harder to call incorrectly (though to be honest, I've rarely encountered issues where I thought "man, if I had ranges I wouldn't have had that bug!").
On the other hand, he seemed to ignore the fact that sometimes single element iterators are useful, and I thought that ranges were only adding unneeded complexity. However, some of that may be reduced somewhat with the new for-statement syntax.
@spoulson it is an iterator, just subtly different from stl-style iterators
@JamesMcNellis Got it. :)
@RogerPate Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. I've also attempted using boost's iterator_facade library and found it really kinda clumsy. At the core, the range concept is basically an IEnumerable, as I suspected.
I don't know ienumerable, but that's been my slight impression
03:19
This ranges thing surprises me because normally I thought thinkers in the C++ field were ahead of their time. Now, it seems like we're back to 2005 or so.
however, in keeping with his c++ background, alexandrescu gives his ranges much more functionality than just get_next as most languages have
I haven't used C# long enough to talk about it competently, but over the last five weeks that I've been picking it up the one consistent thing is that I keep wishing I had the STL. The IEnumerable interface is extremely limited.
IEnumerable is an interface that implements a "Current" property get and "bool MoveNext()" method. A one-way iterator.
exactly. in python, I often find myself copying a list, usually in place (e.g. generator expression) where I'd use <algorithm> in c++
.NET extends it with their LINQ functionality to implement some of the functions mentioned in the Iterators Must Go presentation.
But, honestly I think Python had it perfected before .NET.
03:21
@spoulson: fwiw, I call that a single get_next action, which either returns the next object or throws an exception
especially in a GC language like c#, I wonder why they split it so the iterator tracks current
@spoulson: But, even with extension methods and iterators in C#, some things that are fairly easy in C++ are a pain (lookahead, for example). This is largely because you get forward iteration and that's it.
anyway, nice to finally use SE chat for something besides talking about SE chat; I'll be around tonight but mostly afk :)
On another topic, is there an existing template class for generating and accessing pre-calculated lookup tables? e.g. if I wanted to precalc trig functions, then access the data in various ways?
@RogerPate Good. :)
@JamesMcNellis I once found myself building a single-lookahead IEnumerable wrapper.
03:25
@spoulson Generate at compile-time or run-time? For trig, I would imagine at runtime.
@GMan run-time precomputation.
@spoulson: Yeah; I finally ended up implementing an N-lookahead wrapper.
Can the chat do code blocks?

class this_is_a_test
{
// ...
};
eh :/
I have a working template lookup table class for generating a 1D array from a compute callback. I'm finding I need a 2D version and before I get up to my eyebrows, I was wondering if this has been done already.
I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
@Bruce Wake up.
03:34
Meh, I need to rest up for my midterm tomorrow.
Dead air!
04:05
ded
C++ chat is like a college radio station.
lol
poker chat would be more interesting, area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/3425/…
04:20
I've actually not spent a lick of time in Area51, not a clue what it is :s
I did early, got frustrated with it, and pretty much gave up
but I still watch proposals
yea. it looks messy
granted it's still beta and very different from Q&A, but shrug, it just never got interesting for me
I'd rather let other people decide on how things are organized and implemented.
I'm here to learn.
you can learn by participating too :)
perhaps A51's biggest problem is there's no discussion component: you get a tiddly little bit of comment space and that's it
04:24
yea
a meta.A51 would do wonders for it
I'm completely uninterested even in the politics of meta; I've taken to just posting sarcastic comments.
Should Brainfuck be allowed?
the uncensored spelling, that is
I continually get frustrated with SE's meta sites -- discussion and q&a often clash ><
my grandfather always said, "swearing is fine, but remember it makes you sound like a fucking idiot"
3
lol, that's great
04:36
@JamesMcNellis meta has changed direction too, perhaps inevitable when starting out with a smaller community; but I got disinterested in that side of it
now it's just serious biz
I got a late start on Stack Overflow. It's interesting to me how much it has changed even over the last year since I started participating. I can't imagine how much it's changed since two years ago when it started.
[I'm also partially biased against Meta because I've hit 98 days visited in a row, twice, and then missed a day.]
I listened to all the podcasts before private and then public beta, but didn't sign up for a long time
heh!
I use a chrome extension that monitors rep/responses, and that just happens to count as visiting...
I've been visiting the site since last January or so... I didn't want to contribute though because I thought I was too dumb. :-)
But, then I realized that Jeff's motto for the site (none of us are as dumb as all of us) is true :-D
haven't heard that
04:43
if I hadn't had all the irc experience, I'd probably have waited before trying to help someone else; instead, it just didn't seem interesting -- until I got caught up in the game aspect
Nah, the reputation points don't motivate me to keep contributing.
Ok, that's not at all true.
hahahah
Of course it's not true :P
'specially since you passed me :(
i was watching that going :(
on the top user list. you, jalf, and me all converged at the same time
04:46
That orange text is a link ;-)
Well, I can't keep up the pace with my new job... I actually have to do work at work now.
oh lawd :]
I gave up worrying about the actual points once I hit 10k, but it's still discouraging how more popular (on the site) languages get disproportionately more rep
Like C#.
Yeah. Jon Skeet's a smart guy, but if we had as much traffic as C# I'm sure we'd all be close wrt rep.
something I've thought of is publishing a manually edited list of "good" SO posts
I have that for my own use in bookmarks already
04:50
I use the favorites for that, sorta. Goes to the question.
I use Google and hope I can find what I'm looking for.
I screw around with favorites from time to time, but if I really want to be notified, I use the feed
speaking of top-per-tag users, I'm ahead of skeet
damnit, just a bit shy of top 20 there
neil is still top of many of the tag lists
Ha ha; I know
04:53
saw a "N 1.1" username today, first thought was he came back
It's going to be months before someone takes his spot in [c++]
I wish he'd come back :( i can understand why he left though :[
I have no idea why he left, is there a post I missed?
No, just hearsay
er, sorry. ^ hearsay
04:55
Speculation
i assume its because of the redundancy of questions and whatnot
yeah, he's one of the few users with a high downvote %
only I'm even close (actually slightly worse) in the top 50 users by vote counts
heh, that's cool. im 26
I've kind of stopped voting as of late.
There just seem to be fewer stellar answers.
04:58
though I did hand out probably 100 enlightened+good answer badges to users with <200 rep over the past week :)
Either that or my standards have gone up
@JamesMcNellis both, likely.
Typically when I see an answer with 9 votes, I upvote it to give it a badge.
Or two.
a lot of my downvotes are on the huge community wiki questions, too, I'm not as negative as it looks, but I am probably more than most, and rarely upvote
there are some really high-rep users that never vote though; martelli, lippert
Eric Lippert voted up once.
wow
05:04
Sometimes I look at Eric Lippert's stack overflow profile and wonder: What answer got the 1 upvote he's cast???
Ha ha, yeah
lol
It is nice that we are starting to get some big-name experts contributing in [c++] now.
@James Example?
Not big name like Eric Lippert or Jon Skeet are in C#, but...
Well
Alf Steinbach is one of the comp.lang.c++.moderated moderators
Anthony Williams wrote Boost.Threads and C++0x threads
05:10
Oooh, yeah. That's pretty cool, he knows his stuff.
big names are overrated
though my name has always only been 4 letters, nothing like alexandrescu
you know it's bad for comp.lang.c++ when the moderators come to SO instead. :p
not that those guys don't know their stuff, but so many more people don't get recognized
(and I don't count myself in that group)
That's certainly true.
I didn't know what a litb was before I started frequenting Stack Overflow.
05:12
oh, I did -- irc :)
@JamesMcNellis litb was my first experience with a technical programmer who know the language by reference, not by experience. i was amazed D:
Same here
What happened to the Sutter GOTW idea?
SE isn't a blog engine -- I think he realized that
but no official word that I've seen
ah :/ woulda been cool
05:14
There's been no new news since this
sutter's post there is a good summary
I'm not attached to SO itself much
it's great for Q&A, but people try to jam every damn thing into it
but but but
:[
However, I don't think the GotW format is a bad fit for SO. It's not designed to be discussion-oriented, it's designed to be solution-oriented.
but SO is designed for community participation, not posting your own blogs
the only self-answers I tend to like (outside of meta sites) is where you're asking on someone else's behalf
i.e. someone literally asked you the question earlier
so you dislike mine? :P
05:23
I don't mind the ask a question so you can answer it format.
Assuming it's well-written, of course
And useful
@GMan: I'm the only downvote on that question :)
If nothing else, getting good, objective technical content onto Stack Overflow makes such content far easier to find than if it's on some random blog somewhere.
Ha ha ha
the answer is a bit long to be useful for most people, I'd rather see it on a blog
@RogerPate Aha! :)
and broken up into pieces there
05:25
Why C++ is bore?
:(
then link to it from SO questions as necessary
@Roger: Hm I can see that. My concern is that then people looking on SO won't find the information they need.
if there's a similar question with a link to your blog, they will
eeeeeeh, i suppose.
I prefer that the good information exist in SO itself, rather than through ephemeral links. It's only been two years since SO started, and already some of the links are broken, making the answers useless.
05:27
I've played around with most things myself too, but I still can't shake this queasy feeling about blog posts on SO
@RogerPate Plus I dislike blackninjagames.com as my domain :) I got it when I was 15 or so because it sounded cool. I'd rather have a less off-topic name for my blog. Then my links would break! :P
@GMan: Did you know that you can buy a different domain name?
you should see mine, I got it to be short for my own use, without thinking about giving it out to people
It's not like they are being rationed :-P
so it's .com and 4 letters: qxxy.com, and I never use it
05:29
@James lol, yes. just haven't gotten around
A friend of mine had junk.ws and we built a small Halo site on it...
@roger Ha, nice ads. :P
then it kept growing and by the time it was big it was too much of a hassle to change it :-P
well, it's just parked now :) wasn't using the hosting provider so I canceled that
so I guess just email for the past year
heh
idk what i'd name my new domain
im not creative
gmannickg.com? derp
05:31
seaplusplus.com
iiiiiiii think not
:p
@AdamDavis for the really common questions, you can find one to answer with the long post, if you look
@Richa Its good for newbies who are new to OOPS
@Biranchi Implying it's an OOP language :p
no , it supports OOPS concepts
05:35
@RogerPate: Sometimes. Often there are a lot of questions that beat around the bush and don't actually ask about the real problem, just symptoms of the real problem.
@AdamDavis: e.g. I'd improve stackoverflow.com/questions/2037880/… if I could see a way to improve that very long, dense material for SO's format
If all the questions ask about different symptoms, it's hard to answer just one of them and then close the others as duplicates.
@GMan no it supports OOPs concepts
@JamesMcNellis: ignore the superfluous items, especially if another answer already covers them
@RogerPate: That makes the information in the answer difficult to find.
05:36
@Biranchi OOP.. its not exactly like
its bore too
:P
@Biranchi indeed. it's say java for strict oop though, but i don't program java
specially if you are newbie
@GMan Learning C++ is very easy and it will help much in learning Java and Objective C
@RogerPate: You also quoted a freakin' moron in your answer.
05:38
@Biranchi "Learning C++ is very easy" what? D: im jealous
many older questions can be supplemented
@GMan not only java all the languages are good that supports OOPs based on the type of application developed
@GMan Right now i am using ObjectiveC for developing iPhone Applications and Games, its really kool.
@JamesMcNellis sometimes you have to make sacrifices
There have to be at least a gazillion questions that ask something along the lines of "why does my template code give me unresolved references?!?!!!111oneone," the answer to almost all of which are "you need to put the definitions in the header file and read C++ FAQ Lite section 35."
actually, for that one, I just answer "put them in the header, that's just how we do it. 5 years from now, after you ship this project, we'll revisit the issue to explain why"
05:44
While it's possible to link new questions like that to another question that asks something roughly similar that has the same answer, I'd think it would be better to actually ask the question "Why do I get linker errors when I implement my templates in a .cpp file?," and provide a good answer to that.
IMO, it's then easier to find that good question/answer to link people to
*Easier than if you have to go hunt through a handful of duplicates to see which have useful answers and are worth using as a duplicate.
In addition, if you link someone to a question like that, I think he'll be less likely to look at it and say "this is nothing like my problem."
I've seen that happen with example problems too
Yes, the eof() thing is another good example.
(Oh, I didn't see that was a link)
Actually, I think that linked answer is not useful as a general reference to help people who are using the !stream.eof() anti-idiom. The title on the page is "What is an efficient way of back-tracking in greedy best search algorithm?" How are people supposed to know that's where to look if they need to know how to implement an input loop?
here's a decent one: include guard advice
it's probably not, I have it bookmarked in case I ever run across !stream.eof() again, which hasn't happened in a while
I might have a fundamental philosophical problem with made-up questions used to show examples, rather than real problems
I guess what I'm arguing for is a move towards more FAQ-type questions on Stack Overflow to supplement the enormous number of specific problem type questions.
extrapolate from a real situation, don't interpolate from a fake
I've done meta.SO (community-)faq questions, but those really only work when community participation is low
and that's counter to what you want (and what you usually get) on SO
05:52
But there's nothing wrong with community participation in a FAQ-like question.
Someone else may provide a better answer
e.g. you want to allow people to comment, but then "experts" (however we want to define that) review and 'publish' the faq-style post
And that's terrific
No
I don't think such posts should be limited to experts or top contributors at all.
We now return to our irregularly unscheduled dead air.
I wouldn't want just anyone to be editing the parashift faq, for example
There's nothing wrong with the answer
But how easy is it to find that information?
I've been saying variations on that theme for 15 years on irc (where I just type "calc !eof" and a bot spits it out), so I don't need to find it :)
06:04
So perhaps we need some so bots
:-D
but seriously, if SO sucks at indexing these questions on the site that much, it's not doing it's job
not that it's an easy job
I started to say it earlier, but it's more that I see people getting value from a specific, concrete situation they can really understand
rather than an abstract problem statement
A problem can be generalized without making it so abstract that it isn't useful to most people.
us that have run into these problems a million times instantly recognize the abstract problem -- but we're not the ones that need it
I do see what you're saying though.
fwiw, after sitting down with some coffee and flipping through PPPUC++ in a bookstore for a few hours
I have started to recommend it more
people hate to do them, but book exercises do often present those concrete problems better than most made up examples
06:09
PPPUC++?
heh, it converts tinyurl.com? tinyurl.com/ pppuc
I couldn't think of what the third P was
I forgot it started with Programming
I've heard it was a good book
yeah, it's a strange title
06:11
I've never actually read any of Stroustrup's books
my first c++ book was for dummies... but I'll take the excuse of being in middle school and accepting it as a gift
I've flipped through tc++pl, but don't have it
figure I don't need it as a reference
have about 8 others specific to c++ though
I have hardly any real books; Safari Books is just too convenient.
reference material I like searchable, but I can't stand to read a book on a computer screen
I've been told to get a kindle
06:27
i have a class name X, what is the difference between "const X a" and "X const a"
nothing
07:01
@JamesMcNellis Bots is a great idea
@JamesMcNellis Ah you found me D:
 
16 hours later…
22:45
stupid VS can't properly compile this:
0
A: correct idiom for character string (not std::string) constants in c++

GManThis is just Alf's answer macro'd: #include <iostream> #define string_constant(pName, pLiteral) \ template <typename = void> \ struct pName##_detail \ { ...

0
A: correct idiom for character string (not std::string) constants in c++

GManThis is just Alf's answer macro'd: #include <iostream> #define string_constant(pName, pLiteral) \ template <typename = void> \ struct pName##_detail \ { ...

@GMan it saddens me that you are not to my right
Haha, just you and me in here for now. :) doing art homework
lol I'm thinking about how I'm going to do my testbed for physics.
scripts :p
23:00
For visual debugging purposes.
23:17
scripts
I'm talking about for the GUI development if I'll VS winforms or RAD Studio
scripts
scripts

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