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15:02
@R.MartinhoFernandes halo4 and i'm in
after my steak with fried asparagus
YEAHHHHHHHHHHH
the only thing missing from this amazing birthday is some decent fucking questions to troll the shit out of
I look at the chick in my avatar & I think about chicken breasts ... they almost feel the same, trust me ...
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That sounds depressing.
which one, the lack of trollable questions/answers or the steak with asparagus? :p
BTW, happy birthday ^_^
May the next year be filled with trollable questions and answers for you
@BartekBanachewicz So I thought about it. Just because I'm smart, it doesn't mean I'm rational.
15:08
P.S. I am too busy with online horror books than games nowadays ... so much wasted time ...
Of course smart people are rational - only crazy people are irrational >_< ... it is just that smart people tend to have their own value system & because of the long period of positive reinforcement of how they are more likely to be right, cling less to herd mentality.
Shut up with your pop psychology.
~_~
less bored now?
see ...
nobody is bored with anger ...
Next in the "SO is very well coded" series
Can you be angry & bored at the same time? ... must admit that I have never thought of that question
@telkitty.exe angored?
15:21
What's that? Maybe it depends on the personality, but I am usually interested in doing something when I am angry ...
user1804599
@JohanLarsson Nice.
user1804599
Rain is great.
@telkitty.exe it's a mix of the world "anger" and "bored"
I like windy and cloudy days.
@CatPlusPlus heh
@telkitty.exe \o/
today I said something
15:26
And once again Google trying to convince me to read door numbers in CAPTCHAs. Fuck you, Google.
I said, "I should've eaten more food".
what an odd experience
Also happy birthday <font size=1>jerkface</font>
How's it going DrugMG
9
YAY DRUGS
Hmm, I have ratio 7.16 on a 64GB torrent and it's not finished yet. This is weird.
just spent three and a half hours extolling to my family the wonders of drugs.
15:29
Ratio has little to do with completion
Well, it's at 98%, meaning I uploaded some 400GB+ already.
Maybe you were unlucky and didn't hit peers with parts you don't have yet
@StackedCrooked When? Linky?
user1804599
15:56
Not sure if I should parse ECMAScript code in es blocks or just copy them verbatim.
user1804599
Currently I’m just counting curly braces.
is the heartbleed problem really that dangerous?
yes.
@Jefffrey ... Just figure it out :(
what I mean is: sometimes you won't be able to do nothing
you just get random pieces of memory from the heap (dynamic memory)
user1804599
16:00
> sometimes
user1804599
Oh hey!
@Jefffrey they probably didn't get your password
and even then, they just get the hash, not the password
good luck breaking bcrypt, no?
user1804599
When you upload your password, it will be in memory of the server.
user1804599
Then the hash is calculated, but the password is probably still in memory.
16:04
right
I see
user1804599
Unless you hash client-side, but that’s unsafe and pointless.
stored private keys are the main issue
but yeah you have to be pretty persistent to even just identify what constitutes enough 64k contiguous blocks to form a private key
@Jefffrey Which could randomly contain very sensitive things, like your SSL keys.
it's not like you get an Explorer window pop up with files labelled "SECRET KEY.TXT"
the risk to any one individual through Heartbleed is extraordinarily low, despite the extreme seriousness of the bug
you are far more likely to have your Facebook account hacked via dictionary attacks
the issue is less that you'd have to be a little persistent to get the SSL key
and more that if you got the SSL key, practically the entire underpinnings of the secure Internet fall apart.
it's more of an infrastructure attack that means that they won't need your password.
rather than actually discovering your password.
16:06
not knowing what bytes you're getting means it's very difficult to piece together any one contiguous bit of data
especially when it's not in the form of easily-detectable English writings
doesn't the operating system have virtual memory in their own sandboxes for each process?
sure
webserver process, hello
sure, but this process is the one with the SSL keys.
but of course the process that is replying to you needs the private key
ok got it, thanks
user1804599
@Jefffrey You cannot access the memory of all programs.
16:12
@rightfold It's called challenge/response and DIGEST mechanisms do that
For insecure channels it's neither pointless nor unsafe
Only redundant when you're already sending data on an established secure channel
user1804599
I was talking about bcrypt(password) client-side and then == server-side.
user1804599
Which is a terrible idea.
why?
It's equivalent to sending unhashed password and then doing == on the server
user1804599
@Jefffrey Because if you know the hash (e.g. you got the DB or something) you can just use that and gain access.
16:15
right
I.e. hashing doesn't do anything here
guys I am having problem with VS' nmake while building this github.com/kohler/gifsicle/blob/master/src/Makefile.w32.
On line 27, the macro MSDEVDIR is undefined, so I changed it to "C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 12.0\VC\lib\setargv.obj"
now I am getting the following errors

gifsicle.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol _snprintf
gifsicle.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 1 unresolved externals
This is not a support channel for sicles, gif or otherwise tia
16:32
It's a support channel for misfits.
I've seen that show. Pretty good.
@Jefffrey lol
Typeee errorrrs
I'm tired
Best wishes! May your life be full and your linker errors be less than one page.
4
user1804599
OPTIONS_GHC pragma y u no work.
the whole point of the flag is to make things not work. that's why it's called OPTIONS_GHC
@CatPlusPlus best type of errors
no, I mean seriously
17:11
also, lol:
Thanks a lot for ruining Harry Potter for me. — Beska 29 secs ago
17:22
welp I had a pretty big meal
so here's mepraying to the amitriptyline gods tonight.
the next few days will be fun
@jalf Wow the comment section is really anti-Windows.
People saying M$ are very credible
yeah there were quite a few M$ comments
17:39
eh
you hardly have to be a Microsoft employee to make a monumentally stupid decision
and without actually knowing what's going on, under the hood, it's hard to suggest that it even was that stupid
18:16
i haven't even read it yet. too long
also the author says "comments that [are just insults] are at risk for deletion" so he clearly doesn't comprehend English
all i'm sayin'
i'm off out - tata!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ..? What's wrong with the sentence
> Comments that stoop to insults and/or add no value are at risk for deletion.
deletion. that's very serious.
18:31
If I have content marked as Chinese should I assume Traditional or Simplified
Why does it matter?
I have no idea, but Drupal has the two as separate locales
Mainland China uses simplified.
Good enough!
Almost everyone else uses traditional.
I think Hong Kong and Macau use traditional.
@Lightness why is the cartoon related to me?
18:46
@R.MartinhoFernandes The use of "meatspace" is so you.
18:58
hmm, if I introduce a semantic tree, I can rip out my codegen tree.
why the italic?
I can't stand it.
dammit
in general or that particular use?
@R.MartinhoFernandes what did you do?
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Why can you not stand it exactly?
aaa
stop it
user1804599
19:07
Ja baas.
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Dat is heel jammer!
i don't mind bold.
@StackedCrooked Stop what, exactly?
user1804599
Hardcode code generation.
19:10
welp
I just realized that CR question I linked to earlier was an earlier version of the Wide lexer.
I didn't realize I'd been working on it for so long.
Woooooo import finished
There's probably like a million things broken that I can't see but who cares, weekend
@StackedCrooked override your css settings i{font-style:normal;}, you might add !important for the win
user1804599
lol i.
@rightfold you might use * :P
@Xeo There are some people who believe in that. One colleague once told me: "when you get a wet dream, it means you had se* with the devil"
Xeo
Xeo
19:25
@HamZa You mean sex
wow, seriously, you filtered "sex"?
Xeo
Xeo
put those censor-stars away man
Yeah I filtered it. Is that weird?
yeah.
ok, I'm kind of religious
I think about the kids that "may" enter in this room
user1804599
19:27
Kids love sex.
they won't die if they see the word "sex".
user1804599
And seriously, those who enter are not like, 8.
Hint: replacing a letter with an asterisk buys you nothing and only makes you look dumb
2
lolwut I think I better didn't have to censor that after all. It produced more words lol
user1804599
SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX
19:29
s/\x73\x65\x78/***/
user1804599
I wonder if there is a nicer way of doing this.
user1804599
I don’t like the return "".
optional types?
user1804599
What do you mean?
@CatPlusPlus that's really dum*
user1804599
19:32
Yeah; I p•opose “•” instead of fuck•ng aster•sks.
lol
@rightfold “•” looks like an angel
@rightfold Maybe String instead of String
somewhat lol
user1804599
@Rapptz Meh.
user1804599
19:33
I might put the recursion elsewhere.
user1804599
And have rules starting with { and ending with }, instead of counting the braces with an integer.
Xeo
Xeo
Damn, the last TWGOK chapter...
TWGOK?
Xeo
Xeo
The World God Only Knows
It's a manga, so I doubt you know it.
19:36
Hey guys, I have a C++ story.
@HamZa lol
@Jefffrey who knows, it might be true :P
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton ohai, long time no see
@HamZa I was not lolling for the message, but for the censorstar
;)
sighs I was meaning it in a good way
19:37
oh hey luc
haven't seen you in a while.
Some time ago I tried out a ‘creative’ decision:
Mar 4 '13 at 11:56, by Luc Danton
Okay, I think I've got a start to express what I'm doing here: I'm repurposing type meta-computations and making them double as generic programming queries, by loosely following what decltype with regards to mapping value-category to reference types.
@DeadMG I’m around from time to time.
glad to know that you weren't metaphorically or literally hit by a bus
@HamZa we know :)
So say, for tuples that mean TupleElement<0, std::tuple<int>&> is int&.
user1804599
19:39
@LucDanton you lost me at "repurposing"
was the side effect that you created a sub language within C++?
I’ve found out that this scheme is a bit unwieldy.
@Rapptz No.
damn, so close.
Maybe it works for tuples (so far I have not gone back on TupleElement) but I don’t like it for optional values.
@rightfold what's wrong with people
what are "type meta-computations"?
19:42
meta computations on types
right, I'm so silly
Sometimes you really need to query ‘what do I get if I dereference this’, and sometimes I need to query ‘what’s the type inside’. Those two things don’t seem to agree every time unlike how they (possibly) do for tuples. In my case the pain points seem to be around optional references.
seriously, "by loosely following what decltype with regards to mapping value-category to reference types" -- I can't even give a grammar-sense to that phrase
@LucDanton In the case of optional<T&>, wouldn't they both be T&?
That’s the short (well, not as long) story. For the time being I’ll have two traits for nullable things.
19:43
it's optional<T> where they disagree, surely
since the type inside is T and what you get if you dereference it is T&.
"by <verb> what <...> with regards to <...>" and then what?
user1804599
@Jefffrey well, they can do that if they’re into it.
user1804599
Not my kink, though.
@DeadMG Now comes the long story. I used to have that, but I’m trying out ‘optional references that behave like references’. Notice how for int& ref = i; then std::move(ref) is int&&. So I have set up *std::move(opt_ref) to be int&& is well.
that seems bad.
19:45
@rightfold if you are going to do it, at least do it for more than 10 minutes FFS
you're violating the normal rules of reference collapsing.
stay up there for a day or two
user1804599
And have your legs broken with a hammer.
It’s useful for optional<T> → optional<U> conversions btw. I made the change in an attempt to accommodate those.
well, I'm not going to say that it doesn't have advantages, merely that I can immediately see that you're gonna have a problem here.
19:48
Yeah there’s more than one-way to skin the optional reference cat.
hmm
perhaps you could expand upon the long story by detailing the advantages in the conversion case, I've just spent like 20 seconds thinking about it and I don't really see it.
I thought it was illegal to show a swastika symbol nope
The tricky part being ‘what should the constraints be for an optional<T>::optional(optional<U> cv-ref-quals other) constructor’.
hm.
@Jefffrey that would make wwii movies illegal
19:51
my intuitive answer would be if U cv-ref-quals can implicitly convert to T
brb loo
> Displaying the swastika and other Nazi symbols is illegal in Germany.
> He also pointed out that the Nazi symbols were not completely banned in Germany and were still used in education and arts.
that's silly
user1804599
@Jefffrey There are probably exceptions.
user1804599
Like education.
In that case you disallow optional<base&&> b = opt-ref(derived_object);, whereas it works without the options.
user1804599
19:53
How about Nazi Zombies from Call of Duty?
user1804599
I presume that’s considered art.
Because you do collapse derived&& to derived&, and no binding then.
user1804599
Also meh prohibiting use of symbols.
@rightfold I believe it's also not german
user1804599
But can the game be sold in Germany?
19:55
so I guess importing swastikas into germany can just be considered ironic, not illegal
@LucDanton base&& b = derived_object; wouldn't compile because derived_object is an lvalue.
Much like for some things you need to track how subtyping ‘varies’ between superobject and subobject, here we’re tracking how ‘referance’ varies with value category :)
@DeadMG Rvalue rhs in both cases.
ok, so s/derived_object/derived()/, as it were
Rvalue Obj& is in fact Obj&&. Funny stuff.
user1804599
There is also a limitation on selling Mein Kampf in the Netherlands, which is disgusting.
19:58
@DeadMG It’s an rvalue optional<T&> object.
don't even ask me how I got there, but wtf is this thing
right, but I'm trying to understand the case that does compile without the optionals.
user1804599
By that logic, I propose limiting selling of the Bible too.
derived& d = …; base&& b = std::move(d);
19:59
std::move is T& → T&&, then it derived to base.
right
then you should have an optional<Derived&&> on the rhs in your optional equivalent situation, as opposed to an optional<Derived&>, no?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Is that realistic?
the move should occur before the wrapping into the optional, not after.
That’s another scenario (also worth considering).
at least, that's what I'd say intuitively.
and moving an optional<T&> shouldn't be the same as moving a T& because you've added a layer of indirection here.
20:02
I’m wondering how long can the ‘optional<T> behaves like T’ story hold up. So we substitute derived& with optional<derived&> and see what happens.
hmm
@EtiennedeMartel I bet he lives in the Wankers zone :P
personally, I'd say that idea is just broken from the start, since they're clearly not the same.
It’s a design decision. Ideally (i.e. no edge cases) then you don’t have to remember how to construct/convert optionals: they work like the underlying thing.
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton In a better world, optional<T> wouldn't have to behave like a T :P
20:03
the most obvious example is just T.member.
you won't get too far doing optional<std::vector<int>>().size();.
which is totally not the same.
Remember, it’s a story. Not a goal.
I can't have a template function that does arg.size() and get away with passing optional<vector<int>> in.
and nor should I since that would be implicitly ignoring the fact that such an object might not exist.
I mean, what is the ultimate purpose of this story? optional<T> and T are different things and should behave differently.
maybe there's a better way to achieve the end goal.
Limiting changes and cognitive load when you change to/from an optional (e.g. during refactoring).
E.g. list-int is convenient for containers as you can swap the container type and still have a good chance of not having to change the initialization. Makes sense?
20:08
hmm
that only works because you know in advance that all containers are Containers, as it were.
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton I feel like the code should need to be changed, since optional introduces a 'missing' value, and the code should deal with that
whereas for optional<T>, you don't know in advance that T will look anything like optional.
and even if it did look similar, you'd have no way of knowing what the semantics would be.
he sure likes big words
I’ve raised the scenario before when you change a R foo(T); to R foo(optional<T>);. What changes are you willing to make on all the call sites?
hmm
I'd expect most call sites to compile clean, and I'd be happy enough with introducing explicit conversions on some small subset of them.
20:10
E.g. do the call sites need to care about ‘now I can send in a new, empty value’?
well, yes?
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton provide it as an overload and have the former call the latter :P
isn't that ambiguous?
@DeadMG Then you agree with the purpose of the story if not the extent you’re willing to put up with. Let’s take it for granted that I am then.
ok
well intuitively I'd argue that every decision comes with tradeoffs and if you want to maintain a pretense that optional<T> is a T, there are going to be inherent problems with that.
I guess that for me, it doesn't feel like...
it doesn't feel like arguing that you should be able to treat Containers uniformly, because all Containers are a Container, at least on the conceptual level.
20:15
I’m not going to defend the premise.
25 mins ago, by Luc Danton
The tricky part being ‘what should the constraints be for an optional<T>::optional(optional<U> cv-ref-quals other) constructor’.
The discussion is here.
ok
well, I accept the suggested consequences of the suggestion that I put forward, and I'm happy to stand by it.
@Jefffrey no, the closer match will get preference
20:39
oh man.
one of those refactorings where I break every interface and every implementation in my most complex project.
@Jefffrey wow that's so informative
21:21
How many classes can c++ really handle, is the complexity linear? — self. 10 mins ago
You can vote two times on meta.SE? It's not a bug, it's a feature.
the road to golden badge in status-declined tag gotta be tough — gnat Jan 16 at 19:53
lol
in C#, 2 mins ago, by Tom W
oh god, this man is a lunatic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w&list=PLGjbAdaOBLBnIoUrJqPAuRe38kvcQ9‌​_V7
user1804599
Wait, wut.
user1804599
class Typeable a => Resolvable a where
  resolve :: (forall b. Resolvable b => SymbolTable -> b -> b)
          -> SymbolTable -> a -> a

newtype SymbolTable = SymbolTable (forall a. Map Integer (Resolvable a))
user1804599
Why the fuck does this compile?
user1804599
21:33
Well, with {-# LANGUAGE RankNTypes #-}.
user1804599
Otherwise you get a syntax error.
user1804599
But I am surprised that I can use Resolvable a as a type here, since Resolvable is a type class.
Stockholm syndrome much?
That's a copy pasta from reddit
21:48
drugs
nearly forgot me daily dose.
22:31
rofl, caught a bug with override that must have been in here for months
see? override is indeed useful
oh I never claimed otherwise.
in fact these days I compulsively litter my codebase with it
I wonder how is std::is_base_of implemented.
user1804599
It uses magic.
user1804599
You cannot implement it without magic.
22:39
How could boost use magic?
user1804599
boost is not std, noob.
Your point being?
user1804599
You asked about std::is_base_of, not about Boost.
user1804599
What?
22:41
Ok, let me rephrase it: I wonder how is boost::is_base_of implemented.
@rightfold Wrong.
you can SFINAE on derived-to-base pointer conversions.
pretty easily, in fact.
simple enough even in C+03.
why don't you need to define them static functions?
because they're never called in evaluated code.
sizeof expression is the only reference and it's strictly unevaluated.
interesting
it's basic C++03 SFINAE, many type traits can be defined this way and this (and similar tricks) is how Boost originally did it.
some type traits though must be implemented with special compiler magic.
22:51
and the only way to be portable and have that kind of type traits is by being the standard committee and put them in the standard, right? boost could not come up with them, correct?
well, like many other things in Boost, you can provide it portably by providing an implementation for each compiler, so as long as they all happen to provide the necessary intrinsics.
this isn't fundamentally less portable than Boost.Thread, which is provided portably because every compiler happens to permit an implementation on top of pthreads or Win32 threads.
but it's not completely Standard portable, no.
it's only portable insofar as every common compiler permits an implementation.
however type traits were part of TR1 so even e.g. MSVC provided implementations long ago
I see
and of course, part of C++11
but ultimately, if you want to know the history of any specific trait you'll have to ask the Boost guys, I only know the general case.
thanks

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