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00:00
@Rapptz Reverse sexism exists.
not really
@Rapptz If you start preferring a gender over the other because you feel the latter is being discriminated, you are still discriminating a gender.
I'm curious as to what kind of equality feminists strive for
because at all times it seems like the aim is to overthrow the other sex
depends on the feminist, doesn't it?
@AlexM. I think the smartest goals is about political rights and religious rights.
00:05
is that a big issue in the US?
@Jefffrey that's not reverse sexism
because in Romania it's unknown
@Rapptz that's still reverse sexism
congrats
@Jefffrey also what about Italy (noticed you live there)?
00:06
@AlexM. I'm of the opinion that those who want gender equality wouldn't label themselves a feminist.
a wise word from the kitty.
WOW
like I've never seen manifestations and stuff here
and I've never seen a woman complain about such things, ever
...
@AlexM. what about it?
@Jefffrey if the whole feminist thing manifests itself a lot in your country
00:08
@AlexM. I don't hear much about it
but I wouldn't know even if it was a strong movement tbh
this whole thing confuses me tbh :(
mainly because I so don't find anything to be really bad about today's society treating women
or maybe I'm just ignorant
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social const...
gah, I'll go back to not caring
you know that could fix any problem, if it exists
everyone not caring and just letting everyone else do whatever
... and introduce some more problems along the way but hey, the equality would be there
err ... women are still expected to do more house work and getting paid less for doing the same job? It is okay if a mother is paid less for spending less time at work then her male colleagues, but not so if they are doing the exactly the same thing, spending the same hours, at the same company
Apathy (also called lethargy or perfunctoriness) is most commonly defined as a lack of feeling, emotion, interest, or concern. It is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation, and/or passion. An apathetic individual has an absence of interest in or concern about emotional, social, spiritual, philosophical and/or physical life and the world. The apathetic may lack a sense of purpose or meaning in their life. An apathetic person may also exhibit insensibility or sluggishness. In positive psychology, apathy is described as a result of...
00:17
@minitech are you a bot?
@telkitty.exe doesn't happen here, sorry
does that not vary from company to company?
you make it seem like it's a state-enforced rule
@telkitty.exe fun fact!
"getting paid less for doing the same work" is false
it's been false for the longest time too
[citation needed], both of you
00:20
too lazy cause I'm playing games
when I finish though sure
@telkitty.exe Is the y-axis %? ¢/hr? $/day?
@telkitty.exe I still don't get it
she has a way with graphs
they're always crappy
in what areas?
at what companies?
now you make it seem like it's an invariant of the whole world
Prostitution is the business or practice of engaging in sexual relations in exchange for payment or some other benefit. Prostitution is sometimes described as commercial sex. A person who works in this field is called a prostitute, and is a kind of sex worker. Prostitution is one of the branches of the sex industry. The legal status of prostitution varies from country to country, from being permissible but unregulated, to an enforced or unenforced crime or to a regulated profession. Prostitution is sometimes also referred to as "the world's oldest profession". Estimates place the an...
00:22
@minitech please stop
for the record, I work in a company lead by a woman alongside her husband, where there are 4 women for each man among the employees
@Jefffrey But Wikipedia explains a lot of things better than I can, without that icky bias
considering the marketing department which is lead by women and has exclusively women employees, has better offices and hardware than the development department
I'd say your graph is totally invalid in my particular case
just wanted to make it clear there are exceptions to whatever rule you meant to show
Ah, well, I’m pretty sure the wage gap is not quite accurate, but that’s not the entirety of gender equality.
@AlexM. graphs are not supposed to represent particular cases
00:24
Consider: how a person is treated
@Jefffrey yeah, I guess you're right
I should have said "claim"
@minitech percentage
that graph seems pretty off though
lol perhaps I should complain for having to work with an integrated gpu while the marketing dept posts stuff on blogs on the latest gen laptops
it's time men were treated equally here
nah jk I don't give a shit
I get the money I asked for, I am able to do my job on the hardware (well enough), and that's the reason I go there
@AlexM. there are many reasons, for example guys tend to go for higher paid professions. Once have kids, women tend to shift their priorities from work to taking care of the family, work place generally prefer giving higher paid position to guys, etc.
00:29
I think that makes sense
I don't think, instinctually, men are very fit to take care of babies in the same way as a woman would
this can go up to late childhood
so yeah, as an employer, if you care about things, you take into consideration that a woman might be bound to her children after birth for quite a while
@StackedCrooked, :<
I think when I was in primary school, I have spent more time with my dad who was a lecturer in a university back then. He had summer & winter holidays (even though he still have to work then, but it was much flexible). My mum was a public servant, 9-5 kind of job
@telkitty.exe in my area it's more common for kids to spend their childhood with their grandparents because the parents work throughout the day
it was my case as well
Also my dad care about me more, my mum sometimes doesn't care, I get dropped at my grandma's place when my dad was on holidays & she was 'busy'
00:34
@Jefffrey ok trying a soft reboot
thinking about it now, I kinda wished my mother dropped her job and raised me herself
@StackedCrooked thanks
I can't ssh to it.
Ok it seems to work now.
that's why I grew very close to the grandma that passed away a month ago
At one stage I was closer to that grandma than my mom.
I'm sorry for your loss :(
I never managed to get real close to any of my family tbh, probably also because of this parent switching thing
my grandparents started to die too but I don't feel especially bad about it
00:38
here ... I meant my dad was else where for work not on holiday
@telkitty.exe I'm sorry
got get back to work :p
what's that thing called, to construct a graph that looks like [(1,2),(2,1),(1,3),(3,1)]?
...symmetry?
idk
@Crow I'm not sure I understand how that is a graph
00:42
that's just an undirected graph disguised as a directed graph
also...construct from what
oh wait, yeah, I forgot the (a, b) notation
therein lies the problem
can you be less unspecific? :p
@Crow what property in particular?
@Crow bipartite? planar? perfect? non hamiltonian? non eulerian?
00:49
@Crow points use a set
not a list
also, that's nothing
@Rapptz yes, that's a graph
it's nothing special
just a quadrilateral
a quadrilateral?
a polygon with 4 sides
that degrades to a segment
or two segments
@Rapptz the (a, b) notation means "node a connects to node b"
@Crow digraph / directed graph?
00:53
I'm thinking geometry
not really
:v
graph theory algorithms sure are fun
one way to make it unfun is to drop all of that and just use maths, everywhere, starting from the most basic notations
I think graphs are most beautiful when explained using words
01:01
why would anyone do this
@Rapptz wtf
user3010322
o.0
user3010322
People are fucked up.
@Rapptz who the fuck does this kind of shit =/ thats fucked up
fuck sleep fail
01:08
... changing the function to be more generic IS the right solution. Now you want to pass an array, but next week it will be std::array, and the month after might be std::deque. The "C++ way" has been to pass a pair of iterators, although the experts are now moving toward ranges (which are really just a structure holding a pair of iterators) — Ben Voigt 2 hours ago
That last part, is that true?
there is a movement towards ranges yes
which are structures holding a pair of iterators?
theyre not necessarily implemented as a pair of iterators though
see eric niebler's blog series
eric niebler's ranges are a similar concept
just a pair of iterators with the 2nd one being a sentinel
I don't care about ranges anymore though
I'm fine with iterators and containers-as-ranges
@Jefffrey Lots of people are doing lots of things with ranges.
01:14
I'm having a dejavu. We already has this discussion before
I believe ranges is one of those things I'll never understand
you'll have deja vu whenever you say the word "ranges" in here
it's one of the banned Lounge words
"ranges" is banned?
yup
ranges
user3010322
HERETIC.
01:15
What are the other banned words?
iunno
I'd have to think for a minute
user3010322
Don't tell him, he'll bring the wrath of god down upon us.
user3010322
Just like the gays do with all their...
iostreams
user3010322
..... gayness.
01:16
I remember someone trying to ban "lounged". But the suggestion got lounged.
8
@Mysticial alec teal
@Mysticial wasnt that Rapptz?
it's still banned
you see, no one uses it except Mysticial
I think Haskell is bad for C++ programmers
I mean, this guy is trying to port the "infinite range" concept to C++
s/for C++ programmers//
FTR D has ranges
what's the purpose? we already have infinite loops
01:20
wonder why my executables are 2 MB
no debug symbols
no static linking
@Jefffrey yknow the function std::iota? well that could be a range for example
easy to make with iterators
you can even wrap your iterators to make "ranges"
@Borgleader nope, it has such a beautiful and descriptive name that I never remember what it does, lemme check a sec
> Fills the range [first, last) with sequentially increasing values, starting with value and repetitively evaluating ++value.
@Borgleader it could be or it could use?
01:22
@Borgleader Now that you mention it. Yeah, I think it was Rapptz. ahahah
@Jefffrey instead f creating a vector and then filling it with iota, you could just create a vector and pass in the range the constructor (much like we do with iterators right now)
> much like we do with iterators right now
so what would be the benefit or ranges exactly?
user3010322
Not much.
that doesn't help me understand why ranges would matter... which is the main issue I have with them
Absolutely nothing
01:27
@Rapptz it sounds weird, to say the least, that everybody gets wet with ranges and there's absolutely no reason to it
Just not in this case
It has advantages in other scenarios
@Rapptz such as?
@Jefffrey Ranges are like iterators, but better.
I dislike school.
@Crow what was it?
01:28
Ranges are like iterators on crack.
shit I'm suddenly tired
user3010322
I'm suddenly shit tired.
I'm suddenly not tired.
Ranges are like two iterators glued together.
@DeadMG why?
01:29
they're substantially more expressive and efficient.
@DeadMG I can't see how, could you make an example?
should I turn my trolling-o-meter on or something?
@Jefffrey He means whereas there were two parameters/arguments, now there may be one.
@Potatoswatter well, we could easily have that without inventing new "range" classes
std::range<Iter> is the best obv
except for that boost range that makes indexed for loops easier and more readable
that is a useful range class
it was something like for (auto i : range_name<int>(1, 100))
01:36
boost::irange
yup, that one
well, here's a simple example.
There's another which is nearly identical…
composing iterators involves exponential size increase.
ranges don't have that problem.
@Potatoswatter boost::counting_range
01:38
@DeadMG ? A range contains the iterators… there is no size difference.
@Potatoswatter who's trolling now?
@nonsensickle Fight fire with fire.
..?
@Potatoswatter Only if you express ranges as pair-of-iterators.
but practically no range design actually does this because then you'd be stuck with all the problems of iterators, which nobody wants.
01:39
But seriously, I'd be interested to see an example of sizeof(range) < 2*sizeof(iterator) for a real use case.
@DeadMG look at Eric Niebler's ranges
they're essentially a pair of two iterators
well, they're not at all a pair of iterators, since the second one is not an iterator at all.
well, one iterator and one "sentinel"
@DeadMG Well, you need to know where you are, and you need to know where to stop, so then you have a pair of iterators :P
but it still has those iterators you hate oh so much
01:40
@Potatoswatter The first is not the second.
isn't the end() iterator the sentinel?
@Rapptz One iterator is annoying but not a big problem.
lol
what's so annoying about iterators again?
well, let's see
01:41
The "sentinel" may merely be convertible to iterator, but you could store that using a different type without involving a range class.
inb4 they are not ranges
the interface is bloated beyond comparison with useless shit nobody really wants, e.g. postincrement vs preincrement, ten trillion typedefs and such, etc.
exponential size increase when dealing with a pair of them
unsafety
non-composability with iterator pairs
oh yeah, then you get to the fun shit, like operator* must return an lvalue.
and not being move-enabled properly.
@DeadMG which makes perfect sense
@DeadMG I still don't get this one
@Jefffrey Which is total horse shit and does not make sense at all.
it only makes sense if you say that iterators must iterate containers.
it's not even a requirement
01:43
as soon as you say that iterator pairs are ranges, it does not make sense.
@Rapptz Only for input iterators. Every other kind of iterator must return an lvalue.
@Jefffrey Well, it's pretty simple. Let's imagine that I am writing a filter iterator- i.e., it's an iterator pair that is a filtered view on another iterator pair.
@DeadMG Is the exponent equal to one, and the base equal to two?
@Potatoswatter No, the exponent is equal to however many times you composed them.
@Potatoswatter lol
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure that's a linear increase.
@DeadMG Nope.
01:46
@Potatoswatter Not when you have a base, i.e. two, raised to an exponent, i.e. the composition number of times.
@Rapptz Er, if you want to contradict LWG about what the Standard says, feel free, but I think I'll stand with them.
discussed this very issue in Bristol.
with a bunch of Standard library implementors.
whom all said it was a dumb requirement but nobody really knew the impact of removing it and nobody had any idea how tightly it was actually followed by anybody, ever.
maybe they did decide to remove it for C++14 but circa C++11, all non-input iterators operator* must return an lvalue.
I was under the impression that only OutputIterators had this requirement but I checked for the third time and it still says Forward and higher.
@DeadMG yeah, I mean that it makes sense for containers
@Rapptz OutputIterators don't have meaningful operator* at all… it can return this.
@DeadMG Well, you could give an illustrative example, which should be very very simple.
@Jefffrey I have no clue I just scribbled incoherently
@Potatoswatter Are you talking about the value category of operator* or the exponential size increase thing?
01:51
@DeadMG Where does the reply point? The size deal.
@Potatoswatter It points at me telling Rapptz that I'd discussed it with LWG in Bristol. Hence my confusion.
also, there are no simple examples of composing iterators (one of the reasons they suck) and it wasn't even me who had the examples in the first place, it was the robot.
remembering the details of his examples (which I am currently attempting to do) would require that I actually create such a composing iterator.
@DeadMG pseudocode dude
yeah, I'm working on it, but again, iterators.
Here's a composed iterator: MoveAdaptor<TransformAdaptor<Ftor, A *> >
that's using one as opposed to creating one.
01:58
The problem of needing to adapt a singular iterator value is a problem which ranges do solve, but there are other solutions, such as having two different types. This is adaptable to the current interface style using type erasure.
the proposed sentinel value is somewhat a solution; but again, now you're not dealing with a range that is a pair of iterators anymore.
@DeadMG It's not a pair of iterators of the same type. std::pair allows different types.
alright, simple challenge: rewrite filter_iterator so that it does not require two source iterators per filter_iterator.

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