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user3010322
17:00
How do I erase certain pieces fo code from a template instantiation?
user3010322
Like for example, certain operators?
it doesn't take a big investment in 3D modelling to make something better and faster than you can do in MC
and the end result might actually be what you wanted to end up with, or at least as close as you're able to get it, instead of not remotely close at all because MC can't handle it.
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD conditional inheritance is one option, SFINAE with a dummy template argument on the functions another
nobody said the result had to be photo-realistic or anything like that, it's not about realism, it's about whether you have at the end what you wanted to create.
@DeadMG You can learn all you need to know to 'master' building in MC with just a few keys to move and a two mouse buttons. But again, you are doing what you did last night, MC is indeed a bad tool for making highly detailed 3D models, but it is not supposed to be a 3D modelling tool.
17:03
@thecoshman But as I said earlier, since it's not effective as a game, if it's also not a decent 3D modelling tool then it's not really anything.
I want to create a castle, it's very easy in MC. I can than share that with others playing online.
user3010322
@Xeo I guess I'll go fr conditional inheritance with CRTP.
@DeadMG how is it not effective as a game?
What do you think makes a game 'effective'? Apparently selling a fair few copie isn't a criteria.
certainly isn't
lots of people thought the Earth was flat, or that it was a great idea to have a good rape whilst you were off fighting religiously-motivated wars, and I don't support either of those things just because they were at one time popular.
17:07
@DeadMG indeed, so what makes a game 'effective', what 'effective' things do you think MC is lacking?
user3010322
@TonyTheLion Lol
well, it's hard to describe exactly, but I think that I'll roll with saying that there's no stimulus
there's not even a bad plot, and little reason to go anywhere or do anything
so it falls back to the fact you need a game to tell you what to do?
well, you're back to trying to call it a modelling program.
17:10
yes.
You can enjoy MC without ever breaking/placing a block if you want.
Just exploring the random generation.
alternatively, I could just Google for pictures of Perlin noise.
You could do yes
lots more randomness to explore, lots less effort.
but not quite the same experience as exploring a 3D landscape
I could just say everything shit, as I could just close my eyes an imagine doing it instead.
17:13
yes, because exploring the 3D landscape takes forever and doesn't include many different means of visualizing the randomness, but the same one over and over again.
@thecoshman I'd argue that in order to be a basic passable game, you can't imagine playing it.
if I play CS online, the other players can act in ways that I can't anticipate.
they kill you :v
what's unexpected :p
they can use tactics that I wouldn't consider or hit or miss me in situations where I'd expect the opposite.
user3010322
@melak47 Machine gun, or sniper rifle?!
user3010322
Grenades, or knife?!
Oh, so you think you have to have human opponents to be a game? Is tetteris not a game?
17:15
you don't have to have human opponents.
although player on player competition is a pretty fast and easy way to go about it if you have a means of competing that the players find enjoyable
so you can agree a game does not have to have other human players to be a game.
sure.
So, why is MC shit?
well, first
Are you even willing to consider it a game?
not really
why not?
user1804599
17:17
Dudes.
user1804599
Do you really have nothing productive to do?
not really.
this is me taking a break from being productive all day.
do we look like we do? :p
also not really :D
17:18
I trust you would at the very least call it an 'interactive experience'
well, arguably, you do interact with it on a miniscule level and you do experience how terrible it is
and I'd argue that game is more or less just an interactive experience with challenges. They do not have to be particularly hard.
nah
sorry, I've got to pay attention to the real world
oakydoaky
17:28
> A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool.
> Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both.
yes I quote wikipedia :P
still, MC offers all of those things. whether or not it is a good game it is still a game.
well, there's no useful structure, rules, or enjoyment, and the only challenges you could resolve by downloading something better suited to achieving what you want to achieve.
It is structured playing, you are confined by the rules of the system. You can't just do what ever you want, you have to follow the rules. If you want a diamond pickaxe, you have to follow the game's rules to earn it. The enjoyment, like beauty, is the beholder really, that part really is subjective, but some people do enjoy playing it. And there are challenges, though you are not forced to try to solve any particular ones; there is the ender dragon if you want to try to beat it.
Also do try to remember that a challenge does not have to be a challenge for everybody. Some people find somethings easier than others.
Oh god this bullshit still?
what, two people can't have a discussion about a game?
it's not like we're flaming out the place here.
Just accept that the puppy is... well, being himself.
17:36
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not really bullshit until shit starts being thrown.
That said, tetteris is not a game
I think he's trying to piss on your spelling, but not sure.
It has a goal, get points; rules, they fall down, you can move them, complete rows are removed etc.; challenge, the size limit of the area; interaction, come on now.
I still find it baffling @DeadMG that you don't consider MC a game.
well, as far as I'm concerned it simply does not offer any gameplay.
17:43
what do you mean exactly?
bad gameplay != no gameplay
well what gameplay do you suggest Minecraft offers?
It has enemies that can kill you
You can kill them too
You realise 'gameplay' does not requires the game challenge you directly.
eh, you could do, but it only qualifies as gameplay if you have a reason to survive
Your own desire to survive is reason enough.
17:47
So your complaint is that MC does not have high scores
Dieng at the end of a long caving run and losing all that you just collected is quite the pain
But there's no gameplay. How can you die?
@thecoshman It is?
since when?
I don't have any desire to survive in Minecraft when I could go survive in a game
posted on March 08, 2014 by Scott Meyers

I'm one Item away from having five full draft chapters for my book on effective use of C++11 and C++14. That's one Item away from being about 75% done. I'd really like to get that Item behind me. The prospective Item title is "Distinguish () and {} when creating objects." I've put off writing it for months, because, frankly, I think the technical situation is a mess, and the advice I have isn

17:49
lol
@DeadMG pardon?
@thecoshman You suggested that I should have some innate desire to survive and this should motivate me to play Minecraft. But not only do I not particularly have any desire to survive, but even if I did, I could simply go be alive in a game instead of in Minecraft.
death is only meaningful if you want to be alive.
Other people want.
Some millions.
@DeadMG staying alive is not the only thing to do in MC
whilst an FPS game has basically that one trick. You try to stay alive, whilst try to prevent others from doing so. To what end? I don't want to play the 'all games pointless' card again.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Other people also commit rape, which I have little desire to do.
user1804599
Little but some!
Ok this is funny, I admit.
lol
gotta admit that's an unfortunate turn of phrase.
Please proceed harvesting more bullshit from the puppy.
...
user1804599
17:53
Take a proper ellipsis: …
if you don't have anything you want to discuss or anything you want to add, why don't you just fuck off?
I also don't want to point to have to point out yet again that just because you do not enjoy MC does not mean it cannot be enjoyed.
I was perfectly happy here discussing with coshman until you showed up.
so kindly go fuck yourself somewhere else, robot.
user1804599
Fucking yourself requires a pretty long and flexible penis.
@rightfold he can just detach it
user1804599
17:55
What shall I do today.
@thecoshman It cannot possibly be a game if he cannot enjoy it.
The gameplay of MC has many aspects to it. You have a world to explore, creatures to look after, monster to slay, fortresses to erect. These are all aspects that you can find in other games.
uh seriously
minecraft again
don't want to play it then don't play, I consider sandbox skyrim unplayable as well, these games just have that to them EOT.
@intel followback pls :)
what the fuck
is this a thing now
user1804599
lol
I think we have moved on more to what 'games' really are. just so happens that MC is the case study.
18:01
you'll be soon enough discussing anal sex, so :getout: of this discussion while you still can
user1804599
But some would say that anal sex is nicer than Minecraft is.
@DeadMG so there, MC does have gameplay. Still don't consider it a game?
Wait, @DeadMG you enjoyed KSP well enough... how is that any different? You chose to build the ships to go to certain places, nothing in the game said you had to reach every planet or what have you.
Deja vu
Why the fuck is this discussion still going o
user1804599
It is still going o because of reasons
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman there's a guidance - the tech tree
for which you need science
which you get from exploration
18:10
@Xeo And...?
user1804599
Minecraft has the Ender Dragon. :v
so.. just like in MC. You have an achievement tree, which you need to explore to complete the tasks on.
I DONT LIKE MINECRAFT HERES MY 1000 WORD ESSAY ON WHY
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman but there's no reward
OH NO BUT MINECRAFT IS REALLY GREAT HERE IS MY 1000 WORD COUNTERESSAY
18:11
@Xeo What's the reward in KSP?
@Xeo and there is in KSP?
Achieving things in-game?
Xeo
Xeo
moar parts!
user3010322
KSP is reaching DA MUN.
user3010322
Minecraft is reaching DA LAVA.
user3010322
18:11
Or hell.
user3010322
whichever you prefer.
@Xeo yes, you do get more parts to build with in Mc by completing the achievement tree.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman what
Explore more, find more materials, build more stuff.
Point is, MC and KSP share very similar progression. They take the same stance on getting you do things, ie, the don't tell you to do anything.
so one more time, how is MC not a game @DeadMG?
user3010322
18:13
Games are entertainment, and thusly the definition of a game is incredibly loose. Arguing about what a game is eventually goes nowhere because it's defined by the people that make and enjoy games: the only thing about a game that's kind of required is player input (and even that, dubiously).
user1804599
Speaking of Minecraft.
user1804599
It’s time to play Minecraft.
@ThePhD not really.
I like the MW definition.
@rightfold shame, it's not a game and thus can't be played.
@R.MartinhoFernandes citation needed :P
user1804599
18:15
I don’t give a shit about what you think.
> a physical or mental activity or contest that has rules and that people do for pleasure.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds about right.
user3010322
Though.
user3010322
Does that mean sex is a game?
user1804599
Which mod pack is fun?
user3010322
18:16
Rules: no anal. Contest: whoever orgasms first. GO!
@rightfold I'm rocking vanila for the now.
@ThePhD Some people play sex games, yes.
user1804599
I want that thing with pipes and quarries.
@rightfold NST Diet
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes is interactivity implied?
18:17
@Xeo Can "has rules" not imply that?
@Xeo I'd say so.
user3010322
@Xeo Contest usually means participants, and the "people do for pleasure" part kind of implies interactivity implies it.
user3010322
I mean, if people aren't doing it, there's no interaction. vOv
If there's no interaction, rules seem meaningless to me.
@R.MartinhoFernandes not really
18:17
@thecoshman Example?
@R.MartinhoFernandes ooh well, I guess
user3010322
Rule: do absolutely nothing
You cannot put rules on a movie. It's there, you watch it.
If you want examples of real shitty non-games, go look at anything David Cage made
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus no buildcraft. :<
18:18
@rightfold Buildcraft is not very good
user1804599
I always liked it.
There's non-diet NST with Buildcraft
But still
@CatPlusPlus Are those the ones that boil down to a sequence of QTEs?
Plus an absolutely shitty writing and everything, yes
@R.MartinhoFernandes ergh QTE
18:20
Shitty? Sure. But QTEs are very much essentially games.
Is movie autopausing every 10 seconds a game? Because ahaha your choices don't matter at all in these games
@R.MartinhoFernandes Only just. It's basically saying, if my dvd stops every so often and I have to press play again, or skip back to the start of a chapter, it's now a game.
Can't believe I'm on the side of QTEs.
@thecoshman But it is! (I mean, if people set out to do that)
Shitty games are still games.
I hate the 'running down a corridor QTE or back to the start of the corrdor'
user1804599
Lol.
user1804599
18:23
I spawned at a place with 15 pumpkins.
long story short, QTE are terrible.
True, but not important.
still, if all you have is QTEs... I'd be hard presses to say you have a game.
You have a movie with a hinderance for sure.
18:25
"Press this sequence of keys in time" seems like a game to me.
You have no real control over the experience. Either you continue watching the film, or you go back a bit and try again.
@thecoshman See, you're starting to sound like the puppy now. "I don't like this style of game therefore is not a game".
@thecoshman That sounds like some minimal amount of control.
oh ok, I was thinking the "smash A now!" style of QTE
I guess...
What if failing QTEs doesn't matter and some pauses have a timeout so you don't even have to press anything for the game to progress :v
well ok, if all you have is QTE, you have the worst attempt at a game ever and should have spared everyone the pain and just made a decent film
I can tolerate QTE when it's like as you do an action, press this button at the right time for a we bonus.
18:29
Fuck QTEs forever
I hate when they basically make you replay the same cut scene over and over until you time that button press just right.
Some games make you start the whole thing over when you die!
user3010322
rugged rougelikes
user3010322
I'm gonna make a Roguelike called Rougelike
user3010322
Because bad spelling is cool.
18:31
whores use rouge
@ThePhD Unbelievably googleable.
any way, back to paint :S
@ThePhD like Thiaf?
user3010322
@melak47 Rouge Like Thiaf
user3010322
Or "Red Like Thief"
user3010322
18:33
Because, woo, titles!
user3010322
In fact,t hat'd be a great game.
user3010322
Rougelike Thiaf's are thieves that try to steal the impossible. Each time they fail, someone else (or a group of someone else's) has to step up to the plate to try to succeed the challenge they failed.
user3010322
The only problem is: everytime, of course, things get a lot harder, because improved security.
user3010322
It's a Roguelike because once you fail, you lose all your progress with that Thief and are imprisoned / executed.
user3010322
I like it!
18:35
what have I done :E
user3010322
:3c
@ThePhD Meh, that doesn't make it a roguelike.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can whip up some other mechanics.
Meh... '-10 2 hours ago removed User was removed'.
w-what even is this code supposed to do? gist.github.com/DarkCrowz/cc3b9184d894e1eb6a84
@Crow it's a memory manager
user3010322
I'm getting some weird errors with std::pointer_traits<T>
user3010322
Let's see if it's an MSVC problem or fi I can repo on coiliru..
@BartekBanachewicz so... I'm using python... isn't there a simpler way to do this? My memory is initialized as memory = [None] * 10000.
@Crow to do what
user3010322
18:42
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm... not sure if this is the desired behavior?
I'm trying to replicate his function, but I'm sure there's a quicker way to do it with higher-level constructs, isn't there?
user3010322
I thought it should have just resolved to int.
Er, int is not a pointer type.
No fucking idea what you want there.
@Crow this function is a low-level component.
user3010322
18:43
I know. But the default mode says element_type is defined as T.
@Crow Don't do this
@ThePhD It's not supposed to work for non-pointer types.
@Crow There's absolutely no need to do that
@CatPlusPlus yeah there is. We have to use an "array" so I cheated it a little bit.
user3010322
18:44
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh
user3010322
Well, I guess I'll try some other magic then.
@Crow No there isn't
@ThePhD Why do you need this?
@CatPlusPlus then what do you suggest?
@BartekBanachewicz what is it like... doing? Where is it "seeking" in the list, exactly, and why is it seeking that area?
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Just for some definitions of some functions that deference a maybe-pointer.
18:45
@ThePhD Wait, it doesn't say that.
I don't know what you're doing, but there is absolutely no need to preallocate anything
> std::pointer_traits<int>
what are you doing
> Ptr::element_type if present. Otherwise T if Ptr is a template instantiation Template<T, Args...>
@CatPlusPlus well, he wrote his program in C but told us we could use any language we wanted. I chose python, and not everything translates 100% over
int is clearly not a template instantiation Template<T, Args...>
user3010322
18:46
Oh,
user1804599
Use asm.js.
(Also, ugh that behaviour is ugly)
@Crow Yeah that's what I'm telling you
Use js.asm
so what am I supposed to do? There's no chance I'm gonna write this in C
18:47
std::pointer_traits<std::tuple<int, double>>::element_type is int.
I DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING
@ThePhD Is this for your handle's traits?
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah.
user3010322
I figured out how to get a decent element_type, but!
18:48
Set it to whatever your op* returns, without qualifiers.
user3010322
What if it doens't have an op* ?
user3010322
E.g. void*.
This is an awful code. I'd use a dict
user1804599
@Crow Dat code.
half of it doesn't work!
user1804599
18:50
The formatting and inconsistent naming in particular.
user1804599
See PEP 8.
@ThePhD That's void.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes *myvoidptr is an illegal indirection. I can't very well return it.
@ThePhD I'm sure your template will still compile fine.
Member functions don't get instantiated unless used.
@rightfold meh. All that matters is making it work. It's just for school so it's not very serious.
user3010322
18:52
Mmm... well, heres to hoping.
user1804599
Good luck debugging unreadable code.
I just don't get what OSFreeList is... is it a list? He doesn't reference it like one
@ThePhD Ah, btw, you can return something from a template function that ends up with a void return type. Special rule that makes void a tiny bit less annoying in generic code.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes The last time I tried to return void in MSVC, I smashed the stack. ._.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's news to me
user3010322
18:58
@visualc That stack smash, though. http://t.co/8R0ovlt7rI
Xeo
Xeo
I only know of void f(){ return returns_void(); }
user3010322
Maybe it only happens when you put it in a variable?
user3010322
I did auto f = returns_void();
@Xeo Yeah, that something needs to have void type. But there's no syntactic issue.
@ThePhD That never works.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Works on MSVC~

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