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11:00
whats up
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Just getting my mind blown by these hipsters… too cool for the popular constructs.
$ ls
allyour.bas
arebelong.to.us
i'm sick with a cold :(
@LightnessRacesinOrbit hey are you coming to berlin to the channel meeting?
@JohannesSchaub-litb I'd be happy if I only had a cold :(
11:06
i would love to join too :D
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix ohh my condolences :/
@JohannesSchaub-litb Shall I mark you as a yes or a FILE_NOT_FOUND?
Not dead yet
@R.MartinhoFernandes please mark me as a yes. i will try to come. i hope you won't still be angry with me about the doodle thing :(
@DeadMG they voted std::dynarray out IIRC
11:09
i've never been to berlin :D
@JohannesSchaub-litb Do you eschew scope guards? Or have you never been tempted by their exception-safe siren song?
@Potatoswatter i've written by own at work
There! See guys? Litb is smart!
Unfortunately, that's useless to me as reference material as you cannot share it.
common::ScopeGuard sg = common::makeScopeGuard(boost::bind((UglyCastToGetNonStaticFunction)&QFile::close‌​, &file)); ... dangerous functions.... sg.dontFire();
11:11
(It also seems to imply that your coworkers did not use them before you came along.)
@Potatoswatter i don't know :D
Did you make a decision to have a common::ScopeGuard type or is it only there to support C++03?
only to support C++03
(As opposed to relying on auto)
Thank you for responding to my questionnaire :D
you're welcome
i hope i could help in the name of science
lol
11:13
I am empirically determining what C++ user base wants… it is social science.
/facetious
waa i will meet the world-famous StackCrooked!
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's the plan for the day?
JBL
JBL
@Potatoswatter That's a really small user base right there... :P
i hope i'll understand your guys' english dialect
11:17
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol @ vlad
@JohannesSchaub-litb Dunno yet. We'll think something up closer to the date. Right now there are still too many FILE_NOT_FOUNDs.
What does "Confirmed FILE_NOT_FOUND" mean?
@Potatoswatter maybe
@Potatoswatter Neither 'yes' nor 'no'.
11:18
Oh no, not that std::optional<bool> thing again.
why am I not in 404?
I'll start prodding people by the end of April.
@sudorm-rfTelkitty we are not invited, silly
aaaaaaaaand pasta, brb
11:22
but vlad is ...
sadness ...
vlad over Jeffrey
Oo only Europeans are invited ...
no wonder ...
Did someone say Vlad?
user1804599
The image looks vaguely like a person sitting on a throne. — Monroe Eskew 5 hours ago
@sudorm-rfTelkitty Er, I guess because you didn't make it known. Maybe being plonked has its disadvantages after all.
I can't put people on any confirmed list without any confirmation.
How do you guys manage to populate this room 24/7 despite being all in one continent? I thought there were more in the USA… is it only Jerry Coffin?
user1804599
11:27
Asia too.
That's where I am.
Scott, rapptz & pie dude are from the states 2
Oh, yes. Mystical Pie.
@Potatoswatter most of us have fucked up sleeping patterns
user1804599
So we are not all in one continent/
user1804599
11:28
@Jefffrey s/fucked up/lack of/
@rightfold Are you in Asia?
user1804599
@Potatoswatter Arguably.
Oh yes, middle east.
@R.MartinhoFernandes you probably advertised in a narrow time slot - since only Euros replied
user1804599
Fortunately not.
11:30
@Potatoswatter and EtiennedeMartel and a handful of others.
@sudorm-rfTelkitty Two weeks pinned on the starboard is a very narrow time slot indeed.
@rightfold Hmm, where? Not that an Asian meeting is likely, but… Mark and I are in the Philippines.
@Potatoswatter Also, the NA guys aren't on right now. There's several in NA- rapptz, mysticial, jerry, thephd, scottw, etienne, just to pull a few out my arse.
user1804599
Netherlands.
@DeadMG Poor things.
11:33
@Potatoswatter "Despite being all in one continent?" WTF?
etienne?
USA?
@Potatoswatter organizer conveniently made it where he is, aka Berlin
@Jefffrey No, America
ah I only remembered to edit one of the two
(Canada)
user1804599
11:33
@Jefffrey NA is not USA, fool.
@rightfold there was "USA" guys and Etienne in the same message
user1804599
@Jefffrey wrong.
actually, they were two distinct sentences even before the edit.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit here
ok, ok not the same sentence
FFS
user1804599
11:35
The second sentence clearly mentions NA, not USA.
user1804599
And even before the edit, both sentences were completely true, and none suggested Etienne was in the USA.
yeah, well... I'm bad at scanning
Also I didn't know NA meant canada
@Jefffrey Sure, the message contained "all on the same continent (Europe)", and "the USA". I pointed out that Etienne is not on the same continent (Europe). And yes, it was ambiguous in that the message also contained reference to the USA
@Jefffrey ... it... means North America
3 mins ago, by rightfold
@Jefffrey NA is not USA, fool.
it can also mean Not A (Message) or Noses Ahead or NostrAdamus
11:37
@Jefffrey what....
@Jefffrey not in the context of fucking north america :|
@jalf the context of north america was "generated" by NA
no shit in the context of north america, NA made sense as "north america"
It could have also meant a fucking city in USA for all I knew
JBL
JBL
Using "North America" feels like "we want to say USA, but are kinda polite for those forgotten Canadians".
@sudorm-rfTelkitty I am not the "organizer", I'm just someone interested in making this happen; I was not the one suggesting Berlin; I was not the only one interested in making it Berlin; I guess I should put you right back in the plonk box if you're still intent on this slander campaign of yours.
11:39
> Also, the USA guys aren't on right now. There's several in NY- rapptz, mysticial, jerry, thephd, scottw, etienne, just to pull a few out my arse.
for example
(In case that was not clear enough, that was a very verbose and very polite "FUCK YOU")
@Potatoswatter At the last C++ & Beyond Andrei had a presentation about scope guards
SCOPE_EXIT, SCOPE_FAIL, SCOPE_SUCCESS
or something like that
@AndyProwl As if we needed more evidence that the guy is a moron.
@DeadMG I don't think he's a moron
user1804599
Great chance he's a moron, though.
user1804599
11:43
Because most people are morons.
@AndyProwl He did a presentation about scope guards.
user1804599
@Potatoswatter Boost.ScopeExit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am curious ... since Vlad is on that list, that means Vlad replied to the poll too?
and not in a "Here's why they suck terribly" kind of way.
I don't understand what's so bad about scope guards
11:45
scroll up a ways and you'll discover it
@sudorm-rfTelkitty I have no idea. I didn't put Vlad there.
user1804599
Scope guards are terrible
without proper language support.
user1804599
Using RAII for it is a terrible ugly hack.
no, scope guards are a terrible ugly hack.
you don't need or want them when you have RAII.
11:47
@DeadMG I did scroll up. I don't understand why I have to create a new class every time I need to perform an action that gets executed on error
and here I thought scope guards where a good thing
my life is ruined
rather than using a scope guard and a lambda
you ruined it
bastards
wtf is wrong with a scope guard
@rightfold What differences in particular? For example, needing to name the guard is obviously stupid.
11:48
other than me not being among "the more C++ educated" in DeadMG's eyes
I don't know
1, reuse, and 2, safety.
classes are re-usable and safe and scope guards are neither.
I'm not good enough at C++ to judge some nerd's (Puppy's) opinion on some C++ construct
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Remember, he wants to see C++ sink so Wide has a better chance :)
@DeadMG So in the name of reuse you write a new class every time you have a different exception-safety logic?
Also, it seems to me Andrei's scope guards are safe
11:51
Good lord, Boost's source for even such a simple utility as ScopeExit looks like the disaster area.
@AndyProwl Don't feed the troll. What's your preferred library?
What's wrong with classes?
@Potatoswatter He's not trolling.
@Potatoswatter I don't use scope guards often, I normally use a very simple scope guard class I wrote and pass a lambda to it
Urgh. For cases where no reuse is possible, or even where the semantic is expressed by a trivial idiom like localvar.clear(), there is no difference or advantage to defining a new class.
@Potatoswatter So you consider it "trolling" when you ask an open-ended question and people give you honest and accurate answers that aren't what you wanted to hear?
6
11:54
@jalf I'm asking a question to help me write a proposal to support folks who do use scope guards, to reduce the chances of a crappy library being standardized.
(Note, I will consider any answer to that question, which isn't "yes", to be trolling)
Folks who don't just don't enter into it. It's not on-topic.
@Potatoswatter you asked what scope guard implementations people use. People said "we write it into our classes"
Get. over. it.
11:55
@AndyProwl Yep. As you should do.
when you define a scope guard, what you're really saying is, "I acquired this resource somewhere in my code but I didn't use an RAII class for it", which is unsafe.
there's nothing stopping you from acquiring that resource but forgetting to use a scope guard.
or using the scope guard incorrectly.
There's also nothing stopping you from acquiring that resource but forgetting to use the class
well, there is.
@DeadMG not necessarily true. I occasionally run into situations where I just want something to happen at a specific scope exit, but it's not really tied to any resource
you can't use std::string and acquire the memory in that std::string without using the class.
There's also nothing wrong with not writing code at all.
11:57
plus
no code -> no problem
Not every resource expressed locally in a function is going to be represented by a dedicated class.
"I don't need re-use" is exactly the bullshit excuse that people use to justify Singletons.
hey, I don't need re-use, fuck that shit, let's just go one global instance.
but everybody smarter than a dodo understands that this is a bad idea.
@DeadMG Is that the coding equivalent of Godwin's law? :p
11:57
@AndyProwl exactly
Puppy is Wide of the mark, here.
I always thought scope guards were just about reuse?
@AndyProwl As in, preventing re-use and safety.
Like, you don't have to define a new class every time you need occasional exception-safety logic
Sorry, have to leave. Department meeting.
by "you don't have to", you make it sound like the alternative doesn't have all the downsides of not defining a new class.
which it completely does.
@AndyProwl That sounds more like being about keystrokes.
11:59
Thanks anyway for sharing your thoughts
(or for not sharing them, in case it's "you're a moron")
@AndyProwl What, how did you know my most secret innermost thoughts? :O
although
who told you?!
tinfoil hat
the one place where I do have sympathy for scope guards is where you have different needs for success/failure.
e.g. commit/rollback a DB transaction.
12:00
@DeadMG I hope you don't plan on calling uncaught_exception
this need isn't really met by a class because the same function always unconditionally executes so
@Potatoswatter No, I know that's broken.
@DeadMG I dunno. I kinda like the idea of class transaction.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So do I, but you can't write one without having two different destructors for success/failure.
Yes, I really don't see how that's any less likely to involve a class.
IIRC @jalf's STM lib has transactions in it (duh) and doesn't use scope guards.
12:02
@DeadMG You have to code the same branch whether the class is called a "scope guard" or not.
anyway I personally have not written any code involving transactions so I don't really know
but I can see that you might argue that a regular destructor does not meet that need and you might have a point.
To be honest, I have no issues with an explicit commit step (or discard, if you prefer opt-out semantics).
> If Russia agrees to Crimea's request, the Crimean people will be asked two questions in the 16 March referendum, the statement says

> Are you in favour of reuniting Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?
> Are you in favour of retaining the status of Crimea as part of Ukraine?
Nothing wrong with this poll at all
Maybe there are just other kinds of code you haven't encountered yet. For me, it's when a user is notified before leaving a state within a protocol; they need to observe that state, and you need to return to the "start" state even if they throw.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ugh.
Logic wins.
12:04
@R.MartinhoFernandes That sounds about right, yeah
{
    auto tx = start_transaction(db);
    have_sex_with_the(db);
    tx.commit();
}
@R.MartinhoFernandes sexy
@LightnessRacesinOrbit They sell DIY kits for it. Been around since the 1960's.
@R.MartinhoFernandes My intuitive problem with this is that you have to call commit() on every return path.
12:07
@DeadMG Having multiple return paths in a transaction doesn't sound good, to be honest.
Of course the BBC wouldn't give any useful or informative background info… that would be undramatic.
[[File:Homemade fusion reactor.JPG|thumb|upright=1.5|A homemade fusor.]] A fusor is a device that uses an electric field to heat ions to conditions suitable for nuclear fusion. The machine has a voltage between two metal cages inside a vacuum. Positive ions fall down this voltage drop, building up speed. If they collide in the center, they can fuse. This is a type of Inertial electrostatic confinement device. A Farnsworth–Hirsch fusor is the most common type of fusor. This design came from work by Philo T. Farnsworth in (1964) and Robert L. Hirsch in (1967). A variant of fusor had bee...
@DeadMG that sounds reasonable IMO. The default state for a transaction is that it does not complete succesfully. If it just bails out at some point halfway through, then it should not commit, it should roll back
@R.MartinhoFernandes … at least, multiple ways go get a valid transaction. Multiple failure paths sounds fine.
A transaction commits if it reaches the code line where the author writes "at this point, the transaction should be committed"
@Potatoswatter and Bin Laden did not find this babe ...
12:09
@jalf Yes, but returning isn't bailing out, it's finishing successfully, at which point it should always be committed.
@sudorm-rfTelkitty Most nuclear fusion does not release net energy :( , not unless it's driven by fission first. Or it is occurring inside a star. And even then, the rate of fuel conversion is incredibly slow; that is why stars burn so long.
@DeadMG Not necessarily. You might return early because some precondition wasn't satisfied.
@Potato yeah, that's what I meant
Sure, you could create a rule that "transactions are committed iff no exception is thrown", but that is dumb and artificial
and it hides the fact that deciding to commit a transaction should be an explicit decision, not something that just happens
IMO
@jalf That's more of an assert or throw condition, not a return condition.
I would never just return from a function where the caller provided invalid parameters.
12:14
for(auto tx : start_transaction(db)) {
     have_sex_with (db);
     tx.commit();
}
Don't look at me like that
lol
tx.commit(); that's where the orgasm occurs
@TonyTheLion Then you rollback and have a cigar.
Or you don't rollback and inject whole lots of new rows into some table in that db
Geek sex talk ... so wrong ...
12:22
@DeadMG no it isn't. It is pretty naturally parts of the semantics for a transaction that it might fail to commit, and that might not be a program error
If the semantics were "if this can't be done, it's a programmer error", then there's no need for the transaction. just execute its body normally
ah yes, but you shouldn't even attempt to open a transaction if the preconditions for the transaction body aren't met.
@sudorm-rfTelkitty hey why do you almost always use fat women as your avatar?
skeletons scare me
I thought that we were not discussing if commit() fails, but if the preconditions weren't met for example.
@DeadMG the preconditions are almost certainly going to be dynamic in nature. Not something that can be guaranteed statically.
12:24
throw(db_not_compatible_error);
@sudorm-rfTelkitty so you don't get scared when you look in mirror?
@jalf You can dynamically check them before opening the transaction?
I am not skinny
i used to have nearly perfect body (according to my guy friends)
@DeadMG they might change over time. The point in a transaction is to have some logic that behaves atomically. During the transaction, are the preconditions satisfied?
GUI
12:26
I guess what I'm saying is that if I have a function that has preconditions, I would check them before I started doing any function logic and if they failed, I would throw/assert; and I would do that well before any function logic took place including creating a transaction.
now it's nearly perfect body + 5kg + GST
That's very different from "were the preconditions satisfied before we started the transaction"
hmm
@sudorm-rfTelkitty shrug, who defines the "perfect" body?
@sudorm-rfTelkitty yeah.. and those +10kg don't seem to be brains
@sudorm-rfTelkitty what's GST?
12:27
I wish brain can grow on my waist or butt
I guess that you're right in that you might need to create a transaction to get an atomic view of whatever you're transacting over so that you can actually check the preconditions, perhaps.
@Abyx 3%-20% ... depends on the time & country
@sudorm-rfTelkitty ah I got it
although I might also choose to go the route of simply not checking those preconditions and assuming them as invariant instead.
@jalf different to different people, but it is generally agreed Marilyn Monroe's was pretty perfect according to most people
12:33
anyway it's lunch time for me.
Hello everyone!
@ScottW I actually don't know. We use it internally, but I'm not sure of the status of the public API.
Hi @Cat!
How was the catnip?
got me thinking ... what if you feed lions catnip
user3010322
@Potatoswatter I have my own scoped_destructor, but I think I'm going to expand the concept to a scoped_calls class that runs a constructor on creation and a destructor as well: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/1ec31c7a71f38587
12:47
@ThePhD So unique_ptr then?
13:02
@Potatoswatter .. oh. :(
hmm
might have to reintroduce ::
or perhaps not.
@DeadMG well, I won't say that this is some universal law of nature about transactions, but when I did my STM project I spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out what the least surprising semantics would be, and that's what I ended up with. A transaction is committed when it leaves scope, iff its commit function has been called. Otherwise it rolls back when it leaves scope
Seemed like there'd be too much potential for nasty surprises if a transaction ever committed "by default" without you actually intending for it to do so
user1804599
13:19
@TonyTheLion both.
hmmm, haven't seen @MooingDuck here for a while
user3010322
He's got a life and a wife, yo.
user3010322
That stuff can eat up your time.
I was just about to say, maybe he's busy having sex with his wife
13:22
I forget people have lives
user3010322
How's your life going, Tony?
my life is alright
looking forward to my holiday
@jalf that's also what pretty much every other API does.
God, what is Vlad from Moscow's problem ?
I usually commit when scope is left successfully and rollback in case of any exception
13:30
@ereOn Being from Moscow.
Well, I can think of some jobs that would require one to "kleen his weener".
is optional in C++14 or not after all?
optional like in boost::optional ?
I couldn't find it in the spec, but I only looked briefly
@ereOn mhm.
user1804599
13:39
> hole new dimension
user1804599
dat pun
@BartekBanachewicz No.
FFS.
that's just uh.
They must have thought its inclusion was... well, optional.
of course, that's optional, but we totally need C standard library
because returning end iterator is so great right.
or this amazing npos
13:43
I couldn't agree more.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz TS
@Xeo does that mean it (probably) will be implemented and put in something like ::tr1 or what?
(pardon my lack of knowledge about less-known parts of C++ standarization)
user3010322
I doubt they're going to change string API, even if optional is accepted.
@BartekBanachewicz §20.6
user3010322
Much less the entire rest of the standard library.
user3010322
13:45
It's a breaking code change, after all.
I hope this TS thing is done properly by required feature testing capabilities.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's bitset in n3936
Wait, that s in n3690, but it's gone in n3936 :/
user3010322
Thankfully, my own string API can use optional~
@R.MartinhoFernandes so feature testing is getting standarized?
user3010322
13:47
Does the C++ standard have like an annex for standard unit tests?
@ThePhD eh, we can invent APIs all day, but it's about consistency.
lol of course not
it's a specification not an implementation.
@DeadMG his question was partially valid, though. Additional documents (yet not in a form of annex) might be present with the implementation notes
Khronos is putting a lot of effort into providing this to OGL right now
@BartekBanachewicz Dunno. I think it should for this TS thing to not be a pain in the ass.
@R.MartinhoFernandes so how "this TS thing" is going to look for us?
user3010322
13:50
tr2:: namespace, maybe?
user3010322
I thinkt hat's where <filesystem> is right now, in MSVC
It could well be put in std proper.
user3010322
WHen I visisted STL he was resolving derpy bugs with filesystem's path concat.
because the fact that there are some classes in std namespace that are not standard is permitted I guess
@ThePhD witnessed, ftfy
13:51
and there's where the feat detection comes in, because using them just because they are there is UB
@Abyx I think he meant "visited"
@BartekBanachewicz No. If it gets adopted into the standard with any sort of changes or fixes or whatnot, breaking code is a good thing.
@BartekBanachewicz yeah I know
Killed by an exploding giant spore (38 damage)
    ... set off by themself
@R.MartinhoFernandes but the difference might be just removing using namespace tr2; vOv
"Haha you're dumb"
13:53
@Cat cucumber quest is amazing so far
@BartekBanachewicz No pity if you use using namespace.
Read only ~90 pages, but love it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes but helpers::optional would look terribly in the code :F
No pity if you sacrifice important concerns for looks or keystrokes.
5
Put simply, you reap what you sow.
alright alright
Oh god, no. I forgot an idea I had on Tuesday. I remember I had a nice idea but not what it was, or what about.
user1804599
13:58
What would you call a function function(f) { f(); return f; }?
strange.

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