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17:00
@BartekBanachewicz checkmate!
@Ell at least the second one won't fuck up if I misplace a whitespace
also string quotation :v
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz meh. The whitespace is easy to get right imho. Do you write python ever?
@BartekBanachewicz Have it if you want it :3
@CatPlusPlus what, you can't admit you were wrong?
No, I'm wrong, but it's still :psyduck:
17:02
@Ell Took me 20 minutes to write idotically simple file, remember?
@BartekBanachewicz That's because you're bad
and yes I've written my portion of Python
and Haskell, which is also ws-sensitive
Ell
Ell
Then I don't see the problem really. Did you look at how to write yaml?
@Ell I guess you're from the bunch that prefers dynamic typing, too. Oh wait you're the one using Ruby
@Ell "Did you read 3 books on how to edit 10-line config file" - NO.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see how they are related really
@BartekBanachewicz You don't have to read 3 books. Just read something. You'll learn within 5 minutes that things are indented with 2 spaces
17:04
why the fuck do I have to learn how to edit a config file
like seriously it's beyond my imagination
Ell
Ell
People have to learn json too? Like quoting things?
If it were JSON, and you didn't know JSON, you'd have the same problem
Or any other structured language
no you'd not.
The movie ends with the bad guy pitting the good guy against a tiger in the Colosseum, but! it's a minefield.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz why not?
17:06
seriously this debate is tiring and pointless
I still often get syntax errors from JSON documents where I forget it's stupid and it doesn't support comma at the end of an object/array
I am not going to use YAML ever because it's fucking dumb.
Eventually all the mines explodes in a chain reaction, kill the bad guy, and the good guys escape by hiding behind a Coca-Cola vending machine.
Xeo
Xeo
...
@BartekBanachewicz What
17:06
get a better config format TIA.
I'm done.
Why the fuck would you pit a human against a tiger in a minefield.
Tigers don't know what a fucking mine is.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, let'a do that. much more sensible to get arguments for that than Bartek's hate of YAML.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You could teach it?
Why the fuck would you bother?
no idea.
why would you even want to pit a human against a tiger in a minefield?
17:09
Tiger did it
@Xeo for me the only compelling argument is that I've spend 20 minutes editing a file and I vaguely remember that pretty much every time I had to edit yaml configs it was a major pain I quickly kicked out of my memory. If a file format is supposingly "easy", it wouldn't happen, thus I conclude, at least in my case, a major failure. If it's intuitive for you, fine, use it. For me it's just bullshit, and as rightfold said you're better off with using a programming language anyway
user3010322
Mmm.
Ell
Ell
Gosh why does bartek hate yams so much!
@Ell Maybe he simply over-cooked them.
Ell
Ell
Yeah :/
user1804599
17:10
What shall I write in Perl or Haskell?
Ell
Ell
I like sweet potato mash
@rightfold prepare for the next jam?
@rightfold A Paskell compiler.
Ell
Ell
@rightfold write a cli based ninja makefile thing
@rightfold Why not simply keep working on one of your existing 999,999,999 projects
17:11
Haha, there's a part where the good guy ends up in an imitation of The Village from The Prisoner.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz When is it?
@rightfold 22nd
(I admit it, I've been on TVTropes)
user1804599
@Ell I do not know what Ninja is.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz that’s in 11 days.
user1804599
17:11
What are the themes I can choose from?
You could do 22 projects in that time
user3010322
Hm.
user1804599
I want to do it in Erlang anyway, which isn’t Perl or Haskell.
user3010322
I never thought simplifying logic propositions could get so intense. =[
@rightfold well dunno make some up
Ell
Ell
17:12
`project new Styx` (makes git and ninja and readme)
`project add Test.cpp` (adds Test.cpp to project)
or something. I don't know :( I just don't like editing build files :O
and ninja is a build system
You generate ninja files
I'm gonna take a shit.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz death and cows.
Keeping a static list of project files in a build is configuration over convention, i.e. :effort:
Ell
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I mean I don't like editing any build files, cmake, ninja, scons
17:14
@ScottW y
Point it at source directory and let it grep all the files inside
user3010322
@Ell Have a tool/gui generate them for you.
@Borgleader That guy is just unstable.
Ell
Ell
@ThePhD That's the tool I want :) I want a CLI one, not gui
Just browsed lowest rated questions in SO and found that epic edit war
Ell
Ell
and I don't think it exists atm
^ So how did the news crew get in? Southerners. shakes head
@DeadMG Have fun!
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG Be safe.
17:15
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lolwut
user3010322
@Ell Have you looked at Shinobi.
user3010322
Lol
Ell
Ell
@ThePhD No. And googling it returns pc cases or something else :S linky?
user3010322
@Ell It's in Rapptz' github. Go find it.
@Ell It's Rapptz's thing. Not what you want, though.
Yes! I know what you want.
user3010322
17:17
Meh.
user3010322
Shinobi, MSBuild, make, CMake, Scons, Premake, they're all crappy because I have to configure them manually.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not sure even he knows what he wants...
user1804599
Oh, right.
user1804599
I was writing a parser for Styx.
user3010322
@rightfold When you're done, teach me how.
user3010322
17:18
I need to start work on Glaskell, for the fun of it.
@ThePhD on what?
There are many kind of drugs, those which are legal and those which are illegal. Drugs which are legal(treatment) and have an impact on the persons decisions and drugs which are illegal and have no effect on that whatsoever. — JimmyKane 22 mins ago
@JerryCoffin He does.
We discussed it earlier.
@ThePhD Er, what do you want? VS doesn't read your mind either.
@JimmyKane: Are you suggesting that all illegal drugs have no effect on a person's decision-making abilities? That's an interesting viewpoint. — Lightness Races in Orbit 1 min ago
17:20
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I think it was merely a partial enumeration.
Ell
Ell
@ThePhD Ahh I found it. Not quite what I'm looking for. I don't want to have to write any build files, I just want to issue commands - robot could probably explain better than myself what I want haha
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I want them from a GUI. I want them in an IDE. And most importantly, I want it to generate sensible defaults based on hierarchy of config for that project, unless I provide manual override.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then he should be clearer. Perhaps the consumption of hard drugs has inhibited his communication centre.
VS's defaults are not sensible :S
Ell
Ell
I haven't used a gui in a while so I can't think of a parallel. I guess editing build settings in VS? But a cli version
17:21
(Though, I can now parse the original message as, you're right, it was probably intended)
See how warning levels are set.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes MBCS, warning levels, and other such things notwithstanding, I don't ever actually want to know what MSBuild or Scons or Premake is. I want my IDE to do it for me.
user3010322
I don't ever want to touch it unless I have to. And when I do, ti should be as smooth as dipping a finger in a chocolate fountain.
@ThePhD That barely makes a dent in build system woes...
@R.MartinhoFernandes they're quite horrible really.
17:22
Build systems are terrible
Except for make which is great and does all things.
I bet I interact less with my ninja build files than you do with your VS project files.
user1804599
Z shell best build system.
E.g. I don't "add new file".
It's just there.
user3010322
Add New File of VS creates the file too, it's killing two birds with one stone.
17:25
I only have one bird.
user3010322
Implementation detail.
user3010322
I'm onyl throwing one stone.
Also, speaking of the mod election I think this is interesting meta.stackoverflow.com/a/220475/210016
user3010322
Whether it kills 20 birds or 1, I don't care, because it's delivering the result.
17:25
@ThePhD Nope.
I can just drop source files in the folder and call it a day.
You have to additionally "add existing file".
In terms of "not touching the build system unless I have to", VS doesn't go very far.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's fine, it's just bad on VS's part for not watching the file system and sucking up files. Still doesn't mean the principal should change: the IDE should be taking care of getting it into and out of the project file, or if there's a filter catch (*.cpp), should be monitoring the desired directories to catch necessary files.
user3010322
An all-catch (*.cpp) doesn't address many of the other needs I have for a build system, which in my case is usually not just blindly building everything in "this directory" recursively downwards.
robot
17:31
Sounds like your projects are very well-organised.
I has a slight problem.
user3010322
They are.
If you use VS your needs aren't particularly great
@ThePhD And guess what, VS gives you a great choice when those "other needs" popup: do everything by hand.
@scott what?
17:32
if I have a type that's constructed from an lvalue of type T, then if you construct it from an argument tuple which is an lvalue, you'll get a reference to the T in the tuple.
@ThePhD Pretty much any other build system gives you (in varying degrees of easiness) the choice to set things up once and never care again.
I guess I'm kinda concerned about that and people accidentally referring to shit they don't want to.
(MSBuild probably does too, but not from VS)
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes As VS can't read my mind, being able to mass-select 30 some files and add them to the project and give them a different designation (build as HLSL source, do not touch, etc.) all at once hardly qualifies as "by hand".
@scott I can't tell if you're serious or if you're high
Wow vs can select files and do operations on them
That's very powerful indeed
17:34
@ThePhD You can call it whatever you want. It's your only choice.
It involves interaction with the project stuff every single time.
user3010322
No, I don't have to know about the underlying project system. It's a right-click menu and a property window.
user1804599
Cool.
> I don't ever want to touch it unless I have to.
user3010322
The choice for one-by-one file management in any other build system is "open up the build file, add manual file, set commands". That's manual, by-hand, and exposes the build system to me.
user1804599
I have a label in a catch block and I jump into it from an if statement.
user3010322
17:36
Right Click -> "Build as HLSL" >> modifying [Build System File Here]
@ThePhD And "open up the solution explorer, add file, set 'different designation'" is so much different how?
@ThePhD why would you want to know how the build system build?
But you're still missing the important point: I don't even do that.
user3010322
Probably because you don't have a wide, diverse range of files to be working with.
user3010322
17:38
I see.
I like build system that do the build part for you
We use C++, Lua, and GLSL at work. Our build at work has to do special prepocessing and special postprocessing.
I barely ever need to care.
That said, VS build system is quite awesome in a sense that you mostly only have to press "build" for it to build...
I just press F9 in vim and stuff builds.
Why do people get impressed by this shit?
user1804599
I just hit control+S and it builds automatically because it detects a change in the file system.
user3010322
17:41
Going to guess that "without care" is related to a rigid file extension scheme, folders for different types or certain groups of files, among other things.
10 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Sounds like your projects are very well-organised.
user1804599
Well, runs unit tests. There’s no real builds as compilation happens immediately before running.
Ell
Ell
I just do ./build.sh :P
user1804599
fswatch . ./build.sh!
user1804599
Styx is getting boring.
user3010322
17:44
@R.MartinhoFernandes They are well-organized. In principal, my IDE would be able to understand the underlying build system and be able to do things like "catch" certain files, as I said. But a build system should be able to make explicit work as easy as possible, as well as a rigid, structured project.
user1804599
Gonna work on Flame to implement NOT queries.
user3010322
Of course, this is more about an IDE than it is the build system itself, so what I'm really getting at is I would like a better IDE.
@ThePhD That explicit thing should be the exception, not the norm.
oh boy
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree.
17:45
I need to change the interface of one of my fundamental type-level functions.
user3010322
Both should be easy.
this is gonna le suck.
Also, there's nothing hard about adding a line to file with a file name.
user3010322
Side note: Also dwajhdjwkadhjwk I hate symplifying propositions.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right up until you don't know the syntax of the build file you're using.
17:46
@ThePhD There's no need for syntax.
user3010322
No need for syntax...
What's so impressive about mappable keyboard shortcuts?
What's wrong with you people? It's not the 80s any more.
user1804599
lol
user1804599
Just got an email by some moron who asks me a question and then links to it on Stack Overflow.
user3010322
Nothing's impressive about a mappable keyboard shortcut. Everything's impressive about a system that communicates to me through things I understand (clicks, buttons, dropdowns, keys) than making me have to ever look at a CmakeLists.txt or a make or a ninja file, where I had to add lib command lines and other such things.
user1804599
17:48
@BartekBanachewicz I know, but installing lens and mtl was l’effort.
user1804599
> I'm new to this forum ,don't about credentials about this
user1804599
dat comma.
@ThePhD Meh, it seems you were arguing for something quite different than what you stated initially.
parting gift; this beautiful comment:
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You awaken me. Update the answer. Many thanks. — herohuyongtao 24 mins ago
17:51
You don't mind touching the build system, as long as it is with clickety stuff.
user3010322
As long as it's through an abstraction.
user3010322
CLI or GUI or otherwise.
I don't want to touch the build system unless I want to change how things build.
@ThePhD Why is CLI ok, then?
star it.
STAR IT.
Don't you still need to blah blah something about syntax?
17:55
Because he need fancy stuff to look at
Next argument will be about colours in the CLI
user3010322
You wouldn't touch the build system until you needed to change how things build in the first place.... there's no reason to mess with the build system if you're not changing how it works. My point is that any good system will make it so I don't have to ever read the file or know the syntax. This makes it harder for something like a CLI, which has a command structure, and makes the sensible default a GUI with a file system monitor running in the background.
4 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
You don't mind touching the build system, as long as it is with clickety stuff.
So this.
I admire your patience Robot.
user3010322
Sure. I want a powerful abstraction over the system, whatever the hell that system is.
(I hope you're still not assuming the only possible thing you can change in a build is add or remove files)
@ThePhD That just makes your abstraction the build system.
17:57
Will I ever be as patient and calm?
Doesn't change much.
It only makes your build system rather limited.
user3010322
I don't see why it has to be limited.
how do ya override a non-static variable of a super class with a static variable?
virtual doesn't work in this case
You don't uh
Either its static or not.
@VitaliusKuchalskis You need to state the problem you have, not the solution you want. (and do it on Stack Overflow)
17:59
cmon
:D
Do as he says
this is a fast one

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