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13:02
@rightfold cool
user1804599
I am also fearing another thing.
user1804599
Which is line numbers in stack traces.
user1804599
Have to map them.
> The existence of LLVM is
a terrible setback for our community precisely because it is not
copylefted and can be used as the basis for nonfree compilers
user3010322
@jalf Which copylefter said that?
13:06
RMS, obviously :)
I've posted it awhile ago
@jalf "and our compiler will still be superior, because it doesn't expose a library" - paraphrased a little bit :D
Jan 27 at 22:28, by Bartek Banachewicz
seriously why is he even listened to and spoken of
@Griwes it can expose a library BUT ONLY ON GPL
Xeo
Xeo
> Non-free software is an injustice. Our goal is to eliminate that
injustice, to give computer users freedom.
wow, I never knew RMS was that extreme
yeah the ability to pay for something/sell something is injustice
let's make everyone free by removing that ability from them
13:10
@BartekBanachewicz Remember his definition of "free" is highly warped.
> lounge discussing extremism
is this real life
It is warped enough to might have originated in the Warp.
Not sure if this sentence makes sense from grammatical point of view...
@Purrformance or is it just fantasy
user3010322
"Free" for stallman means the source code is out there.
user3010322
13:12
You can still sell the "free" software.
user3010322
(But who would pay for it, when someone else can bundle it up, compile it, and then distro it without making anyone pay for it?)
It is interesting. They overload terms, but when some of them hear "function and operator overloading", they run away in fear.
user3010322
(Or if they could just compile hte code).
Quick, someone count the digits for me. Is this an 128-bit number? 3ce7854015cd38c862cb9e14a1ae552b
fuck you period pain, fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fuck you piece of tiny shit, hope you burn in hell for eternality!!!!
13:13
@Xeo I think of RMS a bit like those 'green' political parties. Nobody expects them really get into power, and if they were looked to to actually sort things out, everybody knows they would do a terrible job. The core message though is what is important, and they are focused on making sure it is not forgotten.
32 hex digits = ?
@sudorm-rfTelkitty Mine are just over! Peace for a month!
@thecoshman Yeah, and neither of them is right in what they present. ^_^
@Griwes what?
yeah that's 128-bit
thanks
13:15
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.
@thecoshman Neither GNU nor "green" guys are right. As in: they are wrong in their fundamental beliefs. Feel free to disagree, this is just my opinion.
The time during the month when I have the period pain is the time I truly understand why cats have claws
@thecoshman their core message is borked.
@Griwes ... right...
ITT Skype is denying me freedom
let's revolt and uninstall it
13:17
@BartekBanachewicz Is this another of these days when we go through GNU bullshits and laugh at them?
@Griwes it's in his footnote
@Purrformance how's life in Korea?
@BartekBanachewicz yeah and ordinary phone calls are free...
I do get what RMS is after, it is a nice idea that everyone lives and works in some utopia where money no longer means anything because people just do things for the better of humanity... except it just doesn't work. There are too many things that people want and people are not willing to do with out some sort of benift.
13:18
@thecoshman TLDR he's a commie
@ArneMertz But they (mostly) aren't software, so it's ok! :D
@sudorm-rfTelkitty I'm in France now
@Purrformance shut up answer the question!
@thecoshman Utopias and dystopias anyone?
@Purrformance but you didn't go on date with robot & his grandma when he was over in France last Xmas?
13:19
yeah well I prefer Ayn Rand's utopia than his anyway
mmmm, fruitopia
@sudorm-rfTelkitty What? No, only Robot. Not his grandma!
@thecoshman It's more than that, he's totally hypocritical about it.
"GPL is totally free, totally and completely free, except you can't do what you want with GPL-licenced software."
@thecoshman His idea is not as stupid as you would think it is.
@DeadMG Because it is the user's "freedom" that is important, not programmer's!
13:20
@DeadMG well why wouldn't you want to release everything GPL? GPL is clearly the best thing ever!
@Griwes The user and programmer are both shafted by GPL, it only serves RMS's ego.
@Purrformance I don't think I said it was...
I should start using non-GPL-compatible license
@Potatoswatter The user suffers less than the programmer in the hypothetical case of only GPL existing.
personally
13:21
Why do guys not having period pain - god you are such a sexist!!!
I'd release software either commercially, i.e. I want money to live on, or for free- really free, like MIT/Boost/BSD style licence.
to me the GPL just seems like the absolute worst of both worlds.
As much as people like RMS are stupid, annoying, hypocritical whatever and what have you, they are important. They keep these issues alive and awake.
mr5
mr5
Hello everyone :D is this a room for C++ ?
13:22
Sorry, I just walked in and wanted to say something without reading the history, but not just "hello."
@mr5 No, this is a room for cloaks.
@mr5 no. It's the lounge.
@mr5 Now it's lounge<exposed> for expositionism
Or rather was :(
mr5
mr5
where's the lounge C++ ?
13:23
it's gone
room topic changed to Lounge<Rotation>: The harmonic resonance is failing! Quick, fire a beam of anti-protons at the field! [exposed] [hide] [need-more-flanks]
@mr5 closed whilst we work on exposing rotating things.
@DeadMG Is that Ghostbusters or Star Trek?
mr5
mr5
I didn't get it. :(
@Potatoswatter Take your pick.
13:24
what ever you want @mr5, I am sure Stack Overflow will do you right.
@thecoshman And also keep lots of nice programmer effort on GPL-licenced projects.
I like how Qt, despite avoiding templates like the plague, manages to produce just as long error messages
Mmmm, flanks
@mr5 you are looking for this:

C++

Friendly conversation, including C++ talk — NOT the "Lounge"!
mr5
mr5
@thecoshman Hope I'm on the right room
13:25
@DeadMG as bad as the GPL might be, the software that comes out of it is still useful. Would it be any better for being closed source? I very much doubt it.
That must have taken a lot of hard work
@mr5 The right "room" for asking C++ programming questions is stackoverflow.com
mr5
mr5
@sudorm-rfTelkitty yes! thanks! :D
@mr5 depends, what are you after?
@thecoshman I think that free libraries are vital to our software ecosystem.
@mr5 Hi, how can I help you?
mr5
mr5
13:26
@jalf I need a discussion so I'm looking for a right room
@mr5 Ask me anything it'll be a pleasure to help!
but I also think that cutting out commercial programmers isn't helping anything.
mr5
mr5
@Purrformance glad to hear it.. :D but I'm not good at explaining things :(
qed
qed
class TextbookMap : public QMap<QString, Textbook*> {
@mr5 It's okay, take your time honey~
13:28
3.2.1 ...
@DeadMG well, GPL doesn't preclude selling your software, just that you also have to provide the source code with it, and allow people to use that source code as they wish, and thus allows them to also attempt to sell it, which means they will, which means you can't make money of it, which means no-one makes money of it, apart from maybe donations. :P
qed
qed
class TextbookMap : public QMap<QString, Textbook*> { // In this line what are the things in the angled brackets for?
@thecoshman Right, so it's the worst of both worlds.
not only can you not make money off your software, but other people can't use it freely and make money off it or derive from it freely either.
@qed They are for decoration only. Silly programmers!
@qed please, do not just dump code on us like that.
qed
qed
13:30
@Purrformance Seriously?
Garbage collector's speed is depressingly slow today
qed
qed
@thecoshman should I use pastebin instead?
@qed The angle brackets are for piercing the skin.
@qed they are a rathe core part of C++. Go read up on 'C++ templates'
@thecoshman Just plonk the worthless shit.
that's what everyone tells me to do
13:30
@qed no, just don't do it. Look at the starboard and read 'The RUles'
@mr5 I believe this is the room you need then!
@DeadMG I will do if I feel I need to.
Template code runs very fast, and the sharp angle brackets get some dangerous momentum. Sushi time!
all I'm saying is
I plonked him, but my screen is still full of messages discussing his crap
therefore, I'm not seeing how this is an effective remedy.
@DeadMG You plonked RMS?
13:31
We really should have a link to that 'other' C++ room...
mr5
mr5
Okay...so here it is: I'm trying to make a GUI on OpenGL...for some reason, I didn't hesitate to work on it, I mean, whatever widget I can simulate, I'm making it neglecting the hierarchical structure...

Now, I'm stuck on implementing a proper tree structure...

If code is needed, I will post some. Thanks! :D
@jalf no that qed guy.
@jalf ... would be a bit louder than a 'plonk' (chuckle)
@mr5 your 'question' is not suitable for chat. please go to Stack Overflow and ask there. This is what SO is for.
@mr5 Sounds like a job for StackOverflow. Not us.
mr5
mr5
@jalf huh?
13:34
@mr5 That is not "discussion", and it is a perfect fit for SO. Post the code, post the details about what you're trying to accomplish and details on what you have done and where you are stuck. Then, by sheer magic, people will help you
@thecoshman There are no active others.
mr5
mr5
Ahmm, I really like to do this as a discussion rather than a post. Because I only get a downvotes instead of an answer :(
@mr5 That probably means you're crap at asking questions.
which is going to be equally problematic here.
13:34
@mr5 Trust me, if you'd get downvoted on SO, you're going to get ripped apart here
A bad question is a bad question everywhere.
@mr5 Try, try again. I'm plonking you, i.e. will not read more of your messages.
One of my Firefox windows wandered to another monitor
This room is not intended for people incapable of using SO
13:35
Hire a private tutor, if you must.
@thecoshman I just noticed that the "star board" is on the starboard side of the screen O.O
5
@mr5 you get downvotes because you are asking your question badly. Coming here is not going to help.
@CatPlusPlus get the gun ಠ_ಠ
@R.MartinhoFernandes what if someone asked a good Java question in a C++ room?
mr5
mr5
Ah, okay..what can I do ?
@ArneMertz ¬_¬ I thought you have been here more than two seconds?
13:36
@sudorm-rfTelkitty I would applaud them for achieving the seemingly impossible :p
mr5
mr5
pitty me >.<
@mr5 no
2 mins ago, by jalf
@mr5 That is not "discussion", and it is a perfect fit for SO. Post the code, post the details about what you're trying to accomplish and details on what you have done and where you are stuck. Then, by sheer magic, people will help you
@mr5 improve your questions.
Note the last part of it. It says exactly what you need to do to get the question treated positively on SO
@mr5 ... ask your question better. Explain what it is you want to do and what you have tried.
mr5
mr5
13:37
this is a shame, but I'm afraid to ask further questions on SO....
@mr5 remember the other C++ room, go there and ping LightnessRacesinOrbit in that room ...
usually, people are more afraid of asking questions here. :)
@mr5 suck it up then. here is not the place.
@thecoshman yeah I have noticed it before and I knew it is on the right side of the screen, but I didnt see someone refer to "the list with the starred quotes" as "the starboard" before.
However, it is possible that you should go another route entirely
13:38
@ArneMertz It's very commonly referred to that way.
So much for squelching. If I may add, there are other sites out there including plenty of traditional message board forums, where you can work through problems in a discussion format without "risking" downvotes.
@ArneMertz ... you have been here before right?
Instead of constantly begging others to help you do something you do not have teh skills to do, develop your skills. Buy a textbook, take a programming class, or just throw yourself at a simpler programming task!
mr5
mr5
@Potatoswatter but this is the best site I can search on google :D
@thecoshman yeah. you kinda asked that
13:39
If you set yourself up to fail, and then keep failing repeatedly and rely on others to take pity and spend their own time fixing your problems for you, then (1) you're not going to learn anything, and (2) you're wasting everyone's time
2
Everyone has to start with the basics. Perhaps you should too, instead of thinking "I'll learn programming by writing an OpenGL GUI"
@ArneMertz hard to port!
and we are not going to respond kindly to having our time wasted anymore thanthe guys on SO
Learning is fun! Go do it!
It is the best site because people can downvote & close bad questions & answers, thus the quality of the questions/answers are more or less guaranteed over the time
mr5
mr5
@jalf I mostly answer my own question but it takes me a very long time to figure it out.
13:40
@melak47 5 months to go before I set sail again
@mr5 answering the questions yourself means you are learning much more in the process than just sitting there and get the answer from someone else. Keep going!
@mr5 So? It'll go faster with practice
What you're saying is effectively "I could figure this out myself, but it is easier to bother someone else to do it for me"
That is not a pleasant attitude. It is also sabotaging your own learning
@mr5 So basically you want to create an OpenGL GUI? Windows, scrollbars, buttons?
@jalf How constructive
Xeo
Xeo
Can somebody take over? Digging that up on mobile is not-fun.
@Purrformance inb4 he just wants to use native windowing system for his 'app'
@Purrformance Yes, I think so too. It is a hell of a lot more constructive than helping him avoiding any kind of learning or self-improvement
13:43
The native windows are part of an OpenGL texture
mr5
mr5
@ArneMertz yeah, but I want the opinion of others as well. How can I achieve this kind of situation: "for instance, I have a problem that I really need a quick solution" ? What do you think is the most suited for this? Solving it on my own? I think that is not a good choice ?
@jalf Your infinite wisdom is not helping at all in fact. Your message falls short because of how you say it.
mr5
mr5
@Purrformance Yes yes yes! I really need the absolute tree structure for "parent and child"
I don't remember you ever really helped a newb on this chat @Purrformance, you just keep them here and play them for your own amusement?
@mr5 It's called a tree
Xeo
Xeo
13:45
what the fuck is going on
@Purrformance So? Writing his code for him isn't helping at all in fact either. And the point here is that none of us are obliged to help him. It is not our problem.
Telling someone what to do in a way they dislike is, at the very least, no worse than telling them nothing.
"I have a problem that I really need a quick solution", really?
@sudorm-rfTelkitty I don't remember you ever really said something useful on this chat @sud
@mr5 when you need a quick solution, that often means your're at work. Either ask your colleagues, or if you are selfemployed maybe pay someone for a quick solution. If you just want a quick solution, then improve your questions. Good questions can be answered quickly.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds like a job for @Purrformance!
13:46
@jalf You are still losing your time explaining he is making you lose your time.
@mr5 I assure that nobody here cares how quickly you need a solution.
mr5
mr5
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean, an existing solution for a related problem ? hehe
@Purrformance define "useful"
@sudorm-rfTelkitty #define useful !(Telkitty)
@mr5 do you know a related problem that has been solved?
13:47
wait... why am I suffering it? I should have plonked her again fucking ages ago.
mr5
mr5
@ArneMertz No no no.. I'm doing this as a hobby project. What I mean by a quick solution is I really really want to finish that particular part of problem in my project.
ahah
No, no, no, and no, really. Lounge<Rotation> is not where you come and ask your questions when you're "afraid" of asking on SO.
@Purrformance you can't do ! on an object unless you over writting the ! operator
fail!
@mr5 You could start by getting an answer to the question you are stuck on. By asking that question as well as you can, or by researching it yourself. Then, when you have a solution, you can ask others what they think of it.
mr5
mr5
@ArneMertz uhm, yeah. kinda
13:48
@sudorm-rfTelkitty You're not an object you're a primitive.
@R.MartinhoFernandes dude, we've covered that. Please, don't go trawling the transcript
So, at what point can we get someone to bin this crap?
What I mean is that it is all there is to cover.
@jalf vOv why bother?
Derail successful
13:49
just to spare someone already wasting there time reading the transcript?
@jalf Well, I used to bin shit
but then people complained.
hey! you guy reading the transcript long after this is gone, you fucking sad sack of shit!
Instead of wasting time trying to convince people this is the right place to ask, ask it in the right place: not here.
so you can complain to whoever was here on a completely random day and time who had a bitch-up about it
@thecoshman huh?
13:50
@mr5 I am afraid then you must learn to ask good questions quickly ;-) Don't start hobby projects just to finish them quickly - start them to learn from them. Learning takes time.
@thecoshman No, to get it out of our face, and because it is basically the only thing that gets the message through that "this is not the right place for what you are posting".
mr5
mr5
@ArneMertz yeah, it takes me a (long long long double) time to finish that particular problem. so what's the proper "tree structure" for GUI system ?
Xeo
Xeo
FFS
@mr5 Why are you even working on a hobby project, if you refuse to actually do the work yourself?
Is that the title of the question you will post on SO? Might need some work.
13:52
@mr5 A tree structure!
But it's a good start.
@mr5 It may resemble a tree.
what kind of hobby project relies on getting others to do the work for you?
maybe if contructing a tree takes you forever, programming isn't for you
@mr5 Now you have to read on it.
13:52
alright screw this
@mr5 One with branches, I think sigh
time for the binhammer.
Xeo
Xeo
full-stop, someone carry that guy out of here.
1 message moved to bin
@mr5 There is no 'proper' structure for anything. Every situation has it's own requirements that dictate what the best solution is. Please, qork out exactly what you want and ask on Stack Overflow
13:53
Also, there is no "proper", "standard", "correct" or "canonical" way to do a GUI system. Different GUI libraries just do whatever they feel makes sense. I suggest you do the same
Worst case, you realize why it was a bad design, and then you can (1) learn from it, and (2) fix it
Third attempt at a question on SO? Go ahead!
@jalf nah, worst case is not even realizing that it was a bad design :P
1 message moved to bin
like I said, binhammer.
@DeadMG THE FUCK?
mr5
mr5
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, 3rd attempt to make a GUI system.
13:55
Can someone take the inflatable hammer of the child?
Chat is not here to circumvent the Question part of the site.
GUI should be separated from internal logic
don't know why you want associate a tree with GUI
@thecoshman Robot, xeo, and jalf are all trying to get rid of this guy. It's time to quit being subtle. You've been outvoted.
huh, jalf isn't a room owner anymore?
@mr5 Follow it through then. Finish the third attempt, even if you think a 4th attempt could be better. That is all there is to it, really. It is always tempting to go back and rewrite and redesign, but at some point you have to accept that "the best I can do is to carry through on this and finish it and get it working"
1 message moved to bin
13:56
@DeadMG Huh? I haven't been for a year or something
@mr5 There are many GUI systems out there. You use THOSE 'done' solutions. Until, that is, you find out what you don't like about them, and have tried many solutions. Then you can consider yourself to know enough to design one on your own.
That was aaaages ago
huh.
@thecoshman I'm not sure I see why
I only just noticed.
13:57
@DeadMG Not at all.
@jalf this insesent binning that was supposed to not be done so much any more.
@DeadMG Can't remember the details, but I think I "resigned" to make room for owners in other timezones
Totally the same situation
@jalf Sounds vaguely familiar.
I don't recall why adding new owners had to mean removing old ones, though.
@thecoshman Well, as I understand it, the idea was "we have a magic new solution to keep out unwanted junk posts, so that binning won't be necessary any more"
Gotta run. In case any of you is not aware of where to ask a question on SO: stackoverflow.com/questions/ask
13:58
@DeadMG about as familiar of the idea that we would attempt to stick to ten guys
I think it was sbi's thing that he wanted the number limited.
Because it's such a useful, prestigious position
Turns out binning is necessary because people have a hard time understanding subtle messages such as "go post this crap on SO"
1 message moved to bin
listen, buddy, I can keep binhammering you all day.
I have absolutely nothing better to do.
@DeadMG ಠ_ಠ seriously dude
13:59
so give it up and save us both the time.
@DeadMG iirc it's just a chat limitation. Can only have 10 or 12 owners or whatever it was
@jalf No, it's not

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