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14:00
@FredOverflow Not that I find it good, but that is even used in AccC++.
@Ell Well done, (though it does make my question about your rep irrelevant for now:).
Oh. hang on, if a big storm just passed you, then I'd better batten down the hatches here!
@FredOverflow baffled. If you're going to do vid tutorials, at least make it use some of the video features. This now is a boring, paternalistic slide presentation without the presenter. It could hardly be more static and disengaging. 5 minutes about "pure text editors" because "we don't have anything to do with colours and formatting when 'typing in commands'". (abrdidged from the second video)
Ell
Ell
@MartinJames yeah you better - lightning & thunder & hail & heavy winds!
@bamboon Bjarne uses that too. One could argue that in certain contexts it makes sense to reduce syntactic noise.
Yeah
14:12
@ELLS BELLS! Its' nearly on us. I gotta power down and disconnect stuff..
No, I totally don't mind downvoting you. Kindly don't spam the chatroom.
Ell
Ell
@MartinJames It's just finished here, I'm suprised it was cold enough to hail though
@Ell Last I heard the compiler was working fine, some parts of the standard library (especially iostreams)...not so fine.
Have you guys seen the "inheritance-based polymorphic is bad" mail already?
Ell
Ell
Nope o.O
14:23
@Griwes mail?
@AndyProwl ...and in others to get correct behavior (selecting the correct implementation of "swap" being the obvious example).
@JerryCoffin Depends on which implementation.
@StackedCrooked std-proposals
@Ell Frankly, "It depends".
isocpp.org/forums/… this thing at the bottom
14:26
@Griwes It's a very old argument.
I like how he uses "polymorphic" to mean "polymorphism".
@JerryCoffin True. I was referring to its usage at global namespace scope, but yeah, that was inaccurate.
Everyone do da polymorphic!
Basically he is saying this because he wants to introduce his concept based polymorphic (sic)
14:28
@StackedCrooked Polly deeply resents how "want rum" has morphiced (!) into "want a cracker".
@StackedCrooked Should contribute to Wide then :P
@Xeo awesome
skydrive.live.com/… AHAHAHAHHAHAHA LOOK AT SLIDE 5
also slide 11
lol
14:31
And also that "some people suck at creating interfaces" != "inheritance based polymorphism sucks"
Oh God that code.
Xeo
Xeo
lol, "may generate a huge virtual table" - a single virtual function...
Conclusion: Toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo poor.
lawl
his reponse to inheritance-based polymorphism is an unreadable blob of code
I don't know if : instead of :: is a typo or part of his proposal.
bah
@Griwes I think he's entirely correct. I'm quite certain when I was in school some of the teachers weren't human... :-)
r199995- still can't compile "Hello, World".
14:34
@JerryCoffin Except his reasoning is so completely off I don't understand how he got there.
euhm has the youtube html5 player been retired?
hm k nvm.
@Griwes Nor do I. I just figured it was such nonsense the only reasonable response was to answer his joke with one of my own.
@JerryCoffin :D
Basterds don't even reach 10% of the videos I recon.
@Xeo I wonder how Bjarne manages to keep his calm after so many years of bullshit.
14:37
@StackedCrooked Bjarne has no hair /endreason
lol
@Xeo Did you see his "solution".
@LightnessRacesinOrbit: I was trying to be polite. Now I will put it more bluntly: everyone, including yourself, had plenty of time to object, and failed to do so in a timely manner. Maybe 2002 was before your time, I don't know. But the design went through an extraordinarily long design review time. The naming of move was never picked up as controversial until it was too late to do anything about. This isn't about basic physics being wrong. This is simply a design detail that no one considered important enough, or objectionable enough to complain about for a decade. — Howard Hinnant 12 hours ago
Xeo
Xeo
nah, didn't bother
Is it just me or is he being incredibly defensive, and a bit of a twat?
I did not manage to even understand his intention.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit He is disagreeing.
And he seems angry.
14:39
@Xeo I am wondering how long it takes till you have seen all the tricks
Polymorphic based on inheritance (may be poorer than goto)
sounds legit
Goto goes places where polly can only dream of.
@StackedCrooked The disagreeing bit is fine, but he's doing so in a very defensive way. He's not saying "it's called std::move because X, Y, Z" he's saying "well YOU didn't voice your concerns in 2002 and now it's too late and it's YOUR fault"
@StackedCrooked who is Polly
Ell
Ell
TIL std::move was proposed all the way back in 2002
14:42
I "failed to voice my objections in a timely manner" apparently is the defence of why std::move is called std::move. Still, when even Hinnant can't explain why it was used then I guess I have a stronger case that it's a stupid name.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit template<typename T> using cast_to_rvalue = std::move<T>;
just do that and quit bitching. :-p
@Ell Yeah move semantics are older than the Cat
Xeo
Xeo
*as_rvalue ~
fits nicely with as_const
14:43
I think he's frustrated because so many people voice their complaints and so few people are willing to contribute.
I can understand that. But I'm even less willing to contribute now after that little tirade.
Maybe he just had a bad day.
Xeo
Xeo
submit a proposal 'deprecating std::move, introducing std::as_rvalue'
In other news, still no Vlad. He's been around but no activity!
@Xeo I think it really is too late :( Anyway, I don't have much desire to inject myself into the tangle of either C++14 or move semantics.
14:46
std::pre_move
I do wish I'd been around earlier to take a potshot at avoiding std::move from being used in the first place
Xeo
Xeo
although 'as_rvalue' has the problem that people need to understand value categories
You people have a sick preoccupation with annoying incidents and actors
Xeo
Xeo
maybe 'as_movable'
@Xeo Thing is, I think they sort of already have to if they're going to get moves right.
14:46
std::add_mobility
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ^ This
std::move is a veneer of simplicity over a non-simple feature, and it's one of the only such cases in the whole language.
value categories should be exposed by the language, not hidden
Plus it's a lie, so!
std::gtfo
14:47
std::stfu
user3010322
move_cast ~
YET I wager C++11 would not have met such warm welcome if it had been called rvalue_cast or as_rvalue
@ThePhD that's actually just redundant then. Just static_cast already does it :)
std::move is fine. What's the big deal? Is it making your life any harder?
I don't care in the least.
14:48
I've found more docs
I think I can do it
it's really not much different from Lundi
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked people get confused because it doesn't actually move by itself, apparently
I think the rationale for naming those things move and forward is that they express the programmer's intent - here I want to trigger a move, here I want to trigger a forward. But in fact they are misunderstood by everyone so those names are a fail IMO.
especially considering the fact I can actually do 2-phase build here and use reflection
@Xeo does Haskell have any reflection-as-library or language feature?
Xeo
Xeo
Template Haskell?
orite, I'll look deeper into that
I see it at the end of the tunnel.
Ell
Ell
14:51
gaaaaaah ragequit
now ima have to eat to settle my nerves.
The way I see it, std::move is like pressing a button which has a "MOVE" label on it. The physics of pressing the button don't cause the actual move, but does trigger the move procedure which is executed by other machinery.
Xeo
Xeo
but it doesn't, is the problem
It may not even be possible to do the move.
Xeo
Xeo
std::move(x) triggers no machinery. the only thing it does is oil the moving part
and yeah, it may end up doing a copy in the end
if T doesn't have a move ctor or x is const
std::btw_I_wont_need_this_any_longer
you know
I cannot but notice that the starboad is largely composed of 1-star messages, all of which were starred over the last few hours.
I guess sometimes that happens.
It's also a Saturday.
Which is the day with the least people here.
Only hopeless cases like us are still here.
I just realized I'm a hopeless case
15:01
I was just told I'm a hopeless case.
user3010322
I'm a hopeful case! :D
Xeo
Xeo
I'm happily learning Japanese, so I don't care. :p
Also, I'm pretty much confined to my bed anyways
user3010322
Teach me with yooou!
Xeo
Xeo
iie
user3010322
Haaaaiiii. :D
15:03
run whilst you still can
Xeo
Xeo
I can't run, atm
user3010322
sore wa tanoshiidarou!
hmm
then I guess you'll suffer in the fires of a thousand hells
Xeo
Xeo
:(
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it feels "cheap"
15:04
I concur.
I don't like.
@Xeo Try u+x.
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD whatever 'darou' means
future form?
@Xeo How does haskell handle N-sized tuples?
Xeo
Xeo
define 'handle'
15:06
well
what interface does it offer?
user3010322
I think so. "It will be fun", so it's meant to be the future impeative
https://github.com/apenwarr/git-subtree/
why does the file "git-subtree" have an arrow on it?
It's misty outside.
Xeo
Xeo
but lemme just say it has 'zipWith3' to 'zipWith8' or so
ah.
so it doesn't handle tuples of arbitrary size, realistically.
Xeo
Xeo
15:07
since haskell tuples aren't defined recursively, yeah
well
Xeo
Xeo
I don't remember needing anything more than a 3-tuplle, though
I was thinking of offering k, v := tuple; for extraction
Ell
Ell
is wide going to have variadics?
Xeo
Xeo
haskell has that as let (x, y) = some_2_tuple
15:08
@Ell We'll see.
Xeo
Xeo
pattern matching ftw
but right now it's looking like "No".
NEVERMIND /||\
Xeo
Xeo
if you have proper tuples, I don't think variadics are as important anymore
Haskell makes a tradeoff between things binary rather than things variadic.
15:09
@DeadMG Does Wide have overloading? (I assume yes, but you never know..)
@LucDanton I agree.
Xeo
Xeo
and tbh, I see variadics as a form of tuples
@Xeo I also agree.
@StackedCrooked yes
Ah, so Wide already has the polymorphic.
right now I'm thinking about perhaps k, v... := tuple;, so k can be first element and v can be the rest of the tuple.
then permit tuple... to unpack into some specific circumstances- function calls, tuple literals, etc.
I guess half the issue is that I'd have to explicitly consider every place where you might want unpacking.
15:12
@DeadMG why bother? isn't it too much effort? I mean, do you actually use 14 elements tuples?
@DeadMG It’s not that nice for things like outer products though. I.e. it’s hard to type a fold over a tuple.
@ScarletAmaranth I do.
@LucDanton as a C++ compile time "container" with some indexes glued on top, right? (as in, not for anything useful :P)
@LucDanton Right now, I'm considering that those ideas don't even provision for defining a concept that would allow that.
@ScarletAmaranth That’s a loaded question.
@ScarletAmaranth That's completely not what we're discussing.
15:15
@DeadMG I know it's not, I am just wondering whether it's worth having a generic way to deal with n - tuples in a head + tail fashion
In any case I don’t use tuples at the meta-level.
what do you mean, meta-level?
Type level, constant expressions.
@DeadMG he means that mpl::vector is preferred
15:18
whereas I wanted to use them to skip having to have variadic templates or such mechanisms.
and I'm definitely not feeling like having variant2, variant3, variant4, etc.
@StackedCrooked oops, I meant "chance"
I assume that in Haskell, rather than Either a b c, you'd have Either a Either b c?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I read it as chance.
Xeo
Xeo
can't see I've really seen that.
Did not notice the typo at all.
Xeo
Xeo
15:21
you'd rather define an ADT
The most frightening thing —and that made it all so unreal— was that all those business blokes, although in great trouble, were so little alarmed. They said that they were trying to dig themselves out of the hole again, but only wished to try to do so by well-established practice. So they will only sink deeper into the mud.
If they really want to get out of the mess, something drastic has to be done and if they don't, something drastic will happen all by itself. But this was clearly beyond their imagination.
Xeo
Xeo
guess it comes up in Arrow code, though, especially with Arrow notation
@DeadMG It’s a possible approach. There are tradeoffs to be made.
@StackedCrooked good :)
hmm.
15:24
@DeadMG I think you should learn Haskell. I think it could only benefit you in your efforts on Wide. (Regardless of whether you end up liking or hating the language.)
to me both approaches seem to have some serious drawbacks.
I can't guarantee that this will work...
if you leave it at two elements then the user is stuck with writing Either a Either b Either c Either d Either e f
Xeo
Xeo
eh, write an ADT
instead of that nested mess
I still have no idea what those are.
Xeo
Xeo
15:25
variants, basically
yeah
the problem I foresee with using tuples as variadics, and what I dislike about C++ variadics, is unpacking/expansion.
Xeo
Xeo
data X = Ctor1 a | Ctor2 b | ...
you have to foresee in advance most of the use cases to know when to offer unpacking and what semantics it should have.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG allow unpacking everywhere!
that doesn't really solve the problem :P
15:27
Speaking of variadics, that means Haskell has Functor and Bifunctor classes (latter not standard). That obviously can be extended…
user1804599
Yay.
New shoes.
But then there’s also variance. So there’s Profunctor as well! tl;dr you’re fucked.
perhaps
I'm going about this the wrong way.
The class for contravariant (mono)functors escapes me right now.
@LucDanton now now
15:31
C++ permits stuff like std::forward<T>(t)...- so in this case, in order to know what std::forward<T>(t) is, you have to know whether the context is being expanded or not.
but I figure that perhaps instead, I should define expansion strictly as expanding a tuple- not expanding any kind of context or sub-expression.
map(forward, tuple) which result is a tuple that can be expanded.
right.
I prefer nap over map
so if I have some imaginary concept MightHoldT, then
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton I wonder how that would actually work, since forward needs an explicitly specified template argument
user1804599
15:33
Hmm.
I’m typically more annoyed by slicing/partitioning (often followed by catenating) tuples. That’s heavy duty code.
I might consider template(Tuple(Type()) types) type variant : types | Map(MightHoldT)... {}.
I guess that would imply evaluating Map at compile-time.
Xeo
Xeo
s/tuple/types/, kthx
kek
Xeo
Xeo
and MightHoldT is what then, Optional?
15:36
does it even matter?
just some concept that is parameterised on a type.
Xeo
Xeo
if yes, that's a pretty sorry excuse of a variant. especially if multiple optionals may be engaged
doesn't matter, it's any random concept that's parameterised on a type.
Xeo
Xeo
sure, but still
I guess I just couldn't come up with any that would be actually useful for variant :P
Xeo
Xeo
variant based on tuple is bad anyways
15:38
ah it only uses the tuple to hold the types it's parameterised on
Xeo
Xeo
just allow ADTs and don't bother with variants
ah, ok
I'm risking 78% chance of saying something stupid now. But wouldn't nested pairs work better for implementing tuples then the current inheritance-based design. You can get head and tail by calling first and second. Applying a functor over every element is simply void apply(pair<T,U> p, F&& f) { f(p.first); f(p.second); } // + overloads for actual elements of course.
Go higher order, with variadics and variance annotations.
"there's probably some therapist watching this out there, who's freaking out"
@StackedCrooked I don't have an inheritance-based design.
15:39
probably :/\
user1804599
@StackedCrooked still have to account for the last element.
Only in case SBO saves space.
@rightfold yes, that's what I mean with overloads for actual elements
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked with expansion and indexing, head-then-tail-style isn't really necessary, I think
I don't currently have any plans for indexing.
I'll probably find out that it's necessary
later.
Indexing refers to the ability to do std::get<N>(tup); ? Or am I misunderstanding that?
Xeo
Xeo
15:43
ye
Alright, time to go to the baker’s.
Xeo
Xeo
ugh, almost 5pm already
^ Could only be better with "Many book"
Xeo
Xeo
I need to go shopping...
15:44
Oops. Time to do groceries then
Cya
user1804599
@sehe I wrote Scala today.
I rote c++
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe bring some for me too, plx
user3010322
Ugh.
user3010322
Now I'm really starting to get screwed here.
15:46
is she hot?
user3010322
No, she's ugly and made of stone. :v
lol
Not really.
You're only just starting to realize it too now
user3010322
The earliest bus I can take to New York from Boston leaves at 6:15, getting me there at 10:30. This drops me off at West 33rd street -- I need to climb up to West 116th Street, an additional 30-45 minutes depending on how the Subway feels.
user3010322
This means the earliest I can be on Campus is -- applying all optimism -- 11:00 AM. My first class of the day starts at 10:10.
Xeo
Xeo
15:48
ow
hey ho
user3010322
The teacher is already annoyed at me that I missed the class. I'm trying not to use my 4 hour commute as an excuse, so I haven't told any of my Professors the full nature of my situation, but now I feel like it's completely unavoidable. =/
I thought indexing perhaps referred to get_index<V>(tup);
Xeo
Xeo
You should maybe call off the whole thing, for your own good
user3010322
15:51
I cannot take another semester off. Not only would the financial aid department have time to cook up more false charges -- and now since they know how tenacious I am, apply extra defenses to make sure the 3K charges stick for the semester -- but I am also out of "time I can spend out on Medical Leave."
user3010322
So if I leave, it'll be actually, really leaving, which is much more dangerous than a simple Medical Leave.
@ThePhD Recently I've started to believe that it's important to learn be your own advocate. Defending yourself is better than not defending yourself.
@ThePhD Guess you're staying overnight.
@rightfold I like the tone of his voice.
user3010322
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm a little poor at the moment, but that was my first idea. There's a bus that departs at some 6:30 PM on Sunday, it arrives near Midnight. My access card still does not work for the Campus but there are a few places I know students frequent on the campus that have heat. Food, I'll just go to any food cart.
15:54
@ThePhD Your professor needs to know about this. It's not an "excuse".
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Pretty much the whole point of the blog and the TV channel.
Reminds me USA presidential voting system. Minorities (like very small states) have a relatively big say in the votes.
@StackedCrooked All constituency-based FPTP systems have that property.
user1804599
Switzerland best system.

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