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12:00
@wilx it hasn't been around for that long, not to mention compilers were lagging behind a bit too, Y U so concerned :)?
@ScarletAmaranth Before 2011 I was able to go to a job interview and say with confidence that I know C++ pretty well. Now I would have to ask "Do you mean C++03 and C++11?"
@wilx you shouldn't be worried to much about it.
yes, you should.
C++11 vs C++03 isn't a minor thing like Java 7 vs Java 1
@wilx well, good news is C++14 will be fairly minor, like, I literally don't care about anything else than polymorphic lambdas right now :P (from the C++14 package)
oh, and decltype(auto) makes my life easier sometimes
I don't know I'm out of the loop but I don't believe people are widely using c++11 today
12:04
need to save them keystrokes!
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Then you're completely wrong.
@ScarletAmaranth If even half of the proposals get accepted it does not look too minor, at least from features point of view.
@wilx They won't.
@wilx don't worry, barely anything will pop in C++14! :) (imho)
C++14 is a pretty minor update- it's mostly cleaning up a few things that tried to get into C++11 but didn't and that kind of thing.
12:05
@DeadMG ^ this
Ell
Ell
like make unique
C++11 vs C++14 will be the next C++98 vs C++03
it's C++17 where they're aiming to push Modules and stuff.
some TRs following C++14 could be interesting though
I saw a timeline by Herb with some network stuff and async io and goodies
I'm beginning to feel like that man would sell his own mother to generate more interest in C++
maybe filesystem finally : - /
12:06
I mean
@DeadMG while secretly introducing singletons, you forgot to mention
he's just not ... careful.
that Cairo shit was a complete embarassment.
the graphics proposal?
how could the chair of our fucking Committee introduce such a steaming pile of crap?
I didn't read it, I just know it exists
what is up with it?
I know it's C api, that would need to be worked on naturally
12:07
everything.
@DeadMG Why is it crap?
the API is completely broken
the motivation is pointless
it's C API
Also, is it not what they call a Strawman proposal?
of coruse it's broken
Ell
Ell
12:07
is it accepted?
It should get the ball rolling.
the reasoning is terrible.
@Ell no.
everything about the paper is broken from start to finish.
Ell
Ell
good
it's the new dynarray, but worse.
Ell
Ell
I don't think c++ should have graphics in its standard library
12:08
wait what, why not dynarray?
hmmm
there are no VLAs in C++
we need dynarray
rofl no we don't.
for a simple example
wait what, why?
there was absolutely no consideration of specialized heap allocators.
12:09
@DeadMG I'd love to believe it. I just remember how we all waited for so long C++0x
no benchmarks.
there was not one scrap of evidence that anybody, anywhere, could achieve better performance with dynarray than they could with existing allocator mechanics.
ok, maybe not that dynarray itself but a run-time initialized array ADT then
not to mention
the horribly large sum of conditions in which dynarray was UB
and the fact that it relied on some hypothetical compiler optimization that hasn't been implemented, don't know if it'll be implemented, and the user can't know if it's implemented
Will new version of C++ provide better "api" to build coroutines?
__async __await is already in VS2013
so that's a "thing"
12:11
dynarray was a massive pile of fail.
Language support would be needed. (The boost library is more like of proof-of-concept I think.)
I read : "pale of fail"
the entire paper could have been replaced by "er mah gerd stack alloc so fast".
the boost async is quite ugly to use
12:11
how many of you guys are using Valgrind?
I used to use it until I realized it's broken as fuck
I should read about what how coroutines work at the implementation level.
Because I'm rather clueless about that.
kqueues, maybe, who knows
(I am guessing here :P)
@StackedCrooked some versions use Duff's device
Ah that.
12:13
@StackedCrooked It's kinda like lambdas.
I mean
coroutines are more complex than lambdas, but it's not a fundamentally dissimilar transformation in some ways.
So it's basically spaghetti code.
I mean, it jumps all over the place like goto.
erm
In some ways it's just jumping and replacing stacks by other stackss
12:14
kind of.
But with a nicer interface.
if you were to consider a co-routine as a callable object
yeah and there is a way to "exchange data" from one routine to the other
the compiler reserves all the stack space it needs in the object, stores locals there, and also stores some kind of marker telling it where in the execution it is
It's also a state machine
12:16
I haven't quite figured out how this interacts with exceptions, though.
I know there is an implementation of a coroutine using "switch" case where each calls return at different places
ah
it'll also make life harder for me in Wide.
@DeadMG I think I see what you mean.
Coroutines would use yield result; and a functor-based approach would say callback(result);.
However, the difference is that the original caller becomes unblocked when using coroutines.
IIRC.
Also, you could have a = yield result; where when the coroutine was called with let say: coroutine.send(1);
Coroutines remind me of clock work.
Not exactly but it was the closes approximation I could find :)
12:26
the music is quite relaxing though
hmm
if I were to implement coroutines, should they be ranges only, or anything?
I don't understand..
well
imagine that you have a coroutine that yields integers.
what do I do if, for example, you call it when it's already finished?
whereas if I make it a range, I can always just return nothing again.
That seems more like special case where you can optimize if you want.
But how can it already be finished before calling?
well
imagine I have a coroutine whose body is yield return 5;.
then I invoke this coroutine twice.
12:31
Then you yield twice I guess?
yield what?
so I just yield the last value again?
well no you could raise an exception
what if I'd written, I dunno, yield return launch_nukes_if_called_twice();?
12:33
return can't be used the compiler will fail
if you had to implement it into the compiler though
could throw an exception if you invoke it more times than it has values
or just that good old homestead, Undefined Behaviour
yes, if you have it inside an infinite loop then it wouldn't throw an exception as long as it doesn't leave the loop
Don't you usually send input data to the coroutine? If you send the same data twice then it gets processed twice. I'm must be missing something..
better define it because you could use it to build generators etc
that would be a regular function.
the entire point of coroutines is that they save their execution state between invocations.
12:36
They would save their current index into the data and stuff.
it get funny when you start "sending" and "yielding" coroutines
right.
Oh, I see. And if you keep sending.
so... when there's no more data.
Ah, I understand now.
I think it should yield the end iterator or something.
12:36
it should be an exception "imho"
er wat
I don't have iterators.
It think it would a EOF or something.
a similar idea could work if I said that all coroutines must be ranges.
I don't get the "ranges" thing
in which case I can just repeatedly yield the "Stop calling me, you bitch" value.
12:37
then that too
but
that would inherently prevent anyone, ever, from using them in a non-range fashion.
...
how you can you yield a range-specific value if the coroutine does not represent a range.
if I return an int or a string, there's no such thing as "Stop calling me, you bitch".
they're all ints.
that value exists only as part of the range interface.
You can always yield a container that has the "stop" value and the actual value but yeah I get what you mean with "static" typed language
But the exception is sexier
I think I should stop doing my own projects
and focus on helping exisitng open source ones
12:49
make them opensource and keep working on them?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix nah, I meant that I feel the other projects are more important
I am talking about Lua.VM.js and Haste in particular
@rubenvb I suppose I linked to the relevant question, but yeah, you can guess it's newer :) stackoverflow.com/questions/20721486/…
@DeadMG Bartek gives me a little faith in humanity!
well I want to use them so it's not completely altruistic
lol
eh I'll just gonna mail the author directly
fuck gh issues nobody responds to
Yeah sometimes gh isn't even the official place to post issues. For example Mozilla only uses Bugzilla. Their Github repo is just a "front"
12:59
'jumping and replacing stacks by other stacks', 'there is a way to "exchange data" from one routine to the other', 'It's also a state machine'. Hmm, sounds vaguely familar. Kinda like some sort of executive that handles multiple stacks. Hey - I've an idea - if you add some sort of interrupt mechanism too, to efficiently handle I/O, it would be really useful!
Someone had Vlad silenced? Maybe I keep my beer:)
rning
night
Ell
Ell
no such thing as altruism imho
agreed
13:01
wrong.
ok, emailed him
even animals display altruism in some limited circumstances.
Ell
Ell
like when?
I dunno, do I look like I do animal research?
Ell
Ell
I think it exists, but not when voluntary conscious decisions are involved
13:02
all I remember is that it's been proven that in some cases, they will do it
Ell
Ell
okay, well I still don't believe it
well, congratulations.
next time, try doing that "research" thing.
science always wins
There's only egoism that happens to also help others
Ell
Ell
same to you
@Ell I did.
Ell
Ell
13:03
you just said you didn't do any research
@Ell you always can escape via philosophy. Just keep defining altruism more technically and in the end it's never truly altruism
when you're done with it someone might help me understand why the fuck Haste passes arguments in arrays [type, value]
nor did I do the research that proves how a transistor works
but I still know that it's proven.
which is the best kind of egoism if you ask me
@DeadMG it's proven how it works? :)
13:04
there's a whole bunch of things I didn't personally prove.
function localeEncoding() {
    var le = newByteArr(5);
    le['b']['i8'] = 'U'.charCodeAt(0);
    le['b']['i8'] = 'T'.charCodeAt(0);
    le['b']['i8'] = 'F'.charCodeAt(0);
    le['b']['i8'] = '-'.charCodeAt(0);
    le['b']['i8'] = '8'.charCodeAt(0);
    return le;
}
but I still depend on them to be true every day.l
There's a whole bunch of things science doesn't prove. E.g.: how gravity actually works
Meh. Old :)
13:05
morning
@sehe Yeah, that's entirely true. But a transistor is not one of them. It's well within the Standard Model.
Ell
Ell
morning :)
how can you even be sure there was a yesterday?
or a second ago?
there's even a classical explanation of it
though I remember not being thoroughly convinced
I can be sure that a second ago wasn't yesterday! (Only logic required)
13:06
the only thing you can be sure of is your consciousness in a specific moment of time
Descartes called. He wants his punchline back
I love that kid
You're a liar. His writings are pretty boring, and hardly anyone reads it
yes, like your memories
13:07
You're hardly anyone :)
I know, you cannot be sure I have a consciousness too
well, console.log works
so I can do IO
ironically, IO is the only thing my Haskell code can do now
I might just as well be your self consciousness
@Jefffrey I highly doubt you do!
i am close to actually passing values via invisible DOM elements
13:08
WAKE UP!
@BartekBanachewicz You lead such an exciting life
Ok, philosophy lesson is over.
@sehe the possibility of not having write js is quite exciting
If you see altruism, as a way to make yourself feel better helping others: it's a kind of egoism.
Or if you do it to look altruist (to gain respect) which will lead to other benefits (bitches for example).
If you do it purely accidently and you don't care?
13:11
It's an altruist kind of egoism at least
I'd prefer having to deal with a world that shows that kind of egoism. I mostly see other kinds around.
Yes, it's a beautiful and hopeful kind of egoism
Ell
Ell
or you want to make the world a better place
@Jefffrey by your definition being altruist would be to help accidently people?
...because if the world is a better place, you fell better.
Ell
Ell
yup
I think altruism is only instinctive/accidental
but not even sure about the instinctive one
13:13
I believe there's always a "myself" involved in every decision. But that doesn't mean it gotta only be "myself".
oooo
apparently there are two libraries
Haste.Prim and GHC.HastePrim
a-ma-zing
but you guys should save this discussion for another time, I gotta go :c
Ell
Ell
@jefffrey I think so too
nobody makes a decision without self interest
because why would they?
exactly
Ell
Ell
@jefffrey bye :)
I gotta go too. going for my first solo drive! if I crash and burn, I had fun here ;)
13:15
@Ell one of my friend used to call me egoist and he said it was all fine and good because we're all egoist
ugh
function (){var _v=jsShowI(5);return fromJSStr(_v);}
it looks okay
why doesn't it work :/
Anyone living in the cold (around -30)...
What happens to @Ell's rep if he dies?
myAdd([0,1],[0,2])
[0, 3]
YES.
Also, no robot today - is he in detox?
13:24
@BartekBanachewicz most impressive
@sehe I've spent 5 hours on that.
@MartinJames I think he's in Berlin
@BartekBanachewicz even more impressive
Xeo
Xeo
@MartinJames quite likely
or maybe he just went to bed at 8am like me, but can actually sleep the full 10h
I'm not sure. I have a feeling he's discovering some new hobbies offline, so to speak
Oh, right:)
13:26
@Xeo which "full 10h"?
@MartinJames Just a hunch. Call it nerdy intuition
@sehe Heh..
13:48
@sehe Isn't Berlin where he lives?
Good derp to you too :)
Ell
Ell
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I think we are too
Ell
Ell
ah massive storm just appeared out of nowhere
eew using namespace std;
Ell
Ell
13:53
I'm back just in time
I wish I had storm here... I could actually walk in the street without fearing to freeze to death
Ell
Ell
hmm what's the state of clang on windows atm?

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