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13:00
Not that anyone does that, because constructing a JSON tree is Not A Big Deal(tm)
@Abyx I guess the argument you are actually making is "JSON object members are unordered, and therefore you can't rely on their ordering"
Which has nothing to do with types, and nothing to do with streams, even. Because if ordering matters, you could use another data type than an object. Like, say, an array.
> An array is an ordered collection of values.
did I say "it sucks"?
11 mins ago, by Abyx
@LightnessRacesinOrbit json sucks 'cuz it has no types. in XML you can use tag names as type names
13:04
ok I did
Sorry, yes, I took the liberty of translating your comment into English :)
A number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number is a number. :( If you want a string of digits, that's not what a number is. — R. Martinho Fernandes 1 min ago
Pet peeve hit.
Personally I would not serialise complex objects into JSON. You got BSON for that
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
@R.MartinhoFernandes hah, gotcha
13:06
fail
First chat message ever was not in this room.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Dear friend. here you go. Love, StackedCrooked (was that kindly enough?)
anyways, with JSON you can't directly deserialize {"x":1, "y":{}, "type":"FooImpl"} into an unique_ptr<AbstractFoo>
@StackedCrooked xx
@vaibhav Nope
fuck me, @Abyx on the first page
@Abyx Good. It's data interchange not IPC (poor comparison but y'know)
13:10
yes.
i'm happy with my 2d data
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh, actually I was. Thank you, that will save me some typing in the future :). I'm always amazed by how much I don't know about C++. — the swine 47 secs ago
yay!
Wow, so many answers going on about binary representations o_O
@LightnessRacesinOrbit well even with data interchange you can have polymorphic stuff
@Abyx yeah I put it badly
I guess I meant "Good. It's data interchange without polymorphic stuff" but that doesn't really say anything new
I don't know how to verbalise the notion I have that it really doesn't matter for JSON
17 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Then use tuples ugh ["type", {...}]
13:13
@CatPlusPlus ah sorry I didn't get it back then.
Trigger just died :(
Oh Tomalak, I wouldn't have thought your beloved other C++ room would have survived so long, only kind of died after 3 months, much much longer than the 1 month I have predicted ...
HAHAHAHA
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Actually, it's all the answers going on about binary. You just ruined my day. Thanks.
You can also use JSON Schema to communicate the types beforehand
@sudorm-rfTelkitty hey Telkitty, why that rm -rf thing?
13:15
@R.MartinhoFernandes but what is a number?
A number
You can also not care and move on
> A number is a mathematical object used to count, label, and measure.
@Abyx there is a powerful force on the net ... it tried to eliminate me ...
13:18
@CatPlusPlus how can it help for polymorphic types? e.g. an array of Animals
@jalf I know you're joking, but I've grown really tired of explaining this to people. I was taught this notion in elementary school :S
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not everyone paid attention in Elementary school, apparently
That's elementary my dear Watson.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Crazy talk. Next I suppose you'll try to convince us that a text string is more than a sequence of bytes? ;)
13:29
does math need a definition of "number" before it can define natural numbers, real numbers etc..?
or is that a given
maybe they should teach the students in elementary school how to identify pedophiles
it is like teaching them road safety
you can tell ... when old people give you lollies and then tried to touch you
in intimate places ...
not hard to tell ...
"How to tell if someone is trying to shoot you: they pointed a gun at you"
They could be clever and use a gun that shoots sideways.
13:33
well maybe also teach them how to deal with pedophiles after that ...
@StackedCrooked How would you define these terms with "number" in them without defining number itself?
@StackedCrooked umm ... how do you aim? put the gun next to the person?
I would be worried if a person suddenly moves close with a gun in the hand, side way or not ...
@StackedCrooked No, you don't. You can define natural numbers with set theory.
And from there you can define all the others, IIRC.
Note however, that the definition of natural numbers using set theory involves the implicit notion of number hidden behind cardinality; it just doesn't need to call it out.
eh it's cold
also what the fuck my answer has +24
13:41
@TonyTheLion I'm not even going to make jokes. That's just nice :)
Xeo
Xeo
Fuuuuck, I want a new leg.
good luck with that
This room seems to be slowly collecting people permanent medical problems... is 'Lounge' a new disease?
@Xeo Send me yours and I'll send you a replacement.
@thecoshman "permanent"? Who?
13:45
@R.MartinhoFernandes Tony's feet, Dead's stomach, Alf has some sort of old man thing I hear, now Xeo has a broken leg
I have a broken brain
you don't count
@thecoshman are you cursing xeo?
coz it might come true?
@thecoshman what's with Alf?
13:47
Though I still prefer to be able to see hot girls and pretty vistas
@thecoshman I have a broken...
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ass?
... under-100k rep!
yeaaahh
That was lame.
Oh, sorry Xeo.
anyone here has a permanent broken heart?
13:49
pull the other one
oh, sorry Xeo
Xeo
Xeo
?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ... if I could spell it, I'd say that other word for crotch
@Xeo We're making leg jokes.
> Some sort of old man thing
Also known as being old
A terrible disease
100% fatality rate
IIRC Alf is NOT that old
It only gets worse
guys, I was wondering
Good thing you stopped.
13:50
@CatPlusPlus false. Not everyone dies of old age
some die from cancer
or AIDs
@R.MartinhoFernandes paused. I need a clarification on something
@R.MartinhoFernandes Would be better if he said "thinking"
@BartekBanachewicz you are probably wrong.
@thecoshman I want to know why
13:51
Because
@BartekBanachewicz vOv you
With the information given, the best we can say is "because you suck" :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes information aside, we can always say that.
Assuming we have a monadic Promise in a chain pA >>= pB, in which pA makes an async query to the server, returns a value to pB which makes another query and combines the result... how to describe whether pB can start querying w/o waiting for pA's result?
doesn't make sense, didn't Alf purposely got banned from Stackoverflow, but now you are telling me he got some kind of old man disease ... but wouldn't it be discrimination that SO ban people who suffer from old man disease?
13:53
Assuming pB is something like queryResult + aResult (IOW it doesn't need result of A to do it's query, only to produce the final result)
@BartekBanachewicz you mean to say pB makes it own request?
@thecoshman yes, they both do. pB just takes an additional value parameter
add in a pC that combines pA and pB?
which is extracted from pA with >>=, obviously
Just say that they can run concurrently?
Not sure what you're asking.
13:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes for example, the cost of pB query might be big on the server. If then pA returns Nothing, it effort goes to waste. How do I express that pB should always "sync" with previous promises before going further?
I imagine something like pA >>= strictWait >>= pB, for example
Would that be an ok solution?
@BartekBanachewicz Isn't that the opposite of the previous scenario?
@thecoshman hmm which one?
oh, groin
hehe
so... you want pB to both be able to run in parallel, but also not run in parallel?
@AndyProwl The question is essentially "how to distinguish between the two needs"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit meh, spelling :P
13:57
@thecoshman I want to be able to express either of them.
@BartekBanachewicz well you have to chose which you want to express, how can it make sense otherwise?
@BartekBanachewicz I see. So it's about vocabulary here, you're not talking about how to realize such a thing or prevent it, right?
@AndyProwl pretty much, yes.
either you can run pA and pB at the same time, or pB has to wait until pA has finished.
@thecoshman And once I choose, how do I express that?
13:58
You can make pB's parameter strict, I guess.
@BartekBanachewicz I have no idea :P You are using crazy symbols
@R.MartinhoFernandes elaborate please.
@thecoshman I explicitely said it's a monadic Promise on the beginning -.-
Actually, \x -> case x of { Nothing -> whatever; Just y -> y + queryB } should do that job fine.
The dependency is implicit there.
@BartekBanachewicz ... of which I know nothing clearly ಠ_ಠ
But in general it seems to me this problem is not related specifically to monadic functions, or is it?
Can't we just apply the same distinction to regular functions?
14:00
@AndyProwl that depends on the evaluation strategy, I think.
I mean, if I give as input to bar() the output of foo(), and bar() in the beginning does something that does not depend on the output of foo(), there is some potential for parallelism.
(modulo side-effects of course)
if you use full beta-reduction, you need to say that explicitely. Under call-by-value evaluation, you don't.
I don't see the problem.
Unless you want to create an artificial dependency, in which case you can use seq.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think Bartek is mostly interested in how to name these evaluation strategies - whether there is some established convention or not.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see. So seq would act like that "sync point".
14:03
All other cases will have a data dependency in them that will get you the right order of evaluation.
@AndyProwl Well I was reading about lambda expression evaluation strategies yesterday, and as I said it looks similar to beta-reduction vs call-by-value. But I was interested on how you can practically look at that problem, too
@BartekBanachewicz seq merely makes the second value artificially depend on the first one. The rest is just a result of the nature of the language. If you already have a dependency (as my example with case of above) you don't need seq.
@BartekBanachewicz I see. I do not know much about it so I can't give an advice, but I wanted to understand what you were asking :)
But it still seems to me that it's not a distinction specific to monadic functions.
Thinking about it... a retail job sounds rather nice. You just do your work, then go home.
14:06
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see. Thanks for explanation, I think I get it.
This book is great BTW, gives me much deeper understanding of what's going on.
@BartekBanachewicz What book?
@AndyProwl Types and Programming Languages
@BartekBanachewicz Ah, I just bought it!
@AndyProwl oh cool. Then it's page 56.
@Bartek Amazon asked me to review it.
14:08
Still waiting for it though
@R.MartinhoFernandes lel.
@BartekBanachewicz I have the PDF, but I hate reading books on my laptop. Yesterday before leaving the office I printed only the first 2 chapters for evening reading and today I'm sick so I can't get to print the next 2 chapters. Damn it.
You could buy it printed already! whistles
I did!
2 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
Still waiting for it though
Wow, to think that once I too was of the mindset where I would buy programming books.
@TonyTheLion Thanks! That's exactly what I needed!
@thecoshman That's OK, it probably means you're healthy.
@BartekBanachewicz FWIW, in practice that sort of means that seq evaluates the first argument before the second, but from a strict point of view, if the compiler could prove certain properties (which no compiler bothers with because high impracticality and low usefulness) about the arguments, it would be allowed do all sorts of different evaluation orders. There's pseq with stricter requirements on the part of the compiler, but I'm not sure what situations call for it.
@AndyProwl nah I just don't care
Still, it's the idea that matters.
@TonyTheLion I really like cinnamon, but not like that.
14:17
@thecoshman Ah, but that could also be because you're healthy. I think Cat is right, it takes some kind of deviation to be into programming.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's bizarre stuff really, when you think about
Cinnamon?
What's bizarre about it?
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, strange woody barky stuff that you grind up vOv
all dry and nasty
No, it's not!
yet tasty :S
14:18
It's shit from sandworms.
wtf?
Cinnamon ( ) is a spice obtained from the inner bark of several trees from the genus Cinnamomum that is used in both sweet and savoury foods. While Cinnamomum verum is sometimes considered to be "true cinnamon", most cinnamon in international commerce is derived from related species, which are also referred to as "cassia" to distinguish them from "true cinnamon". Cinnamon is the name for perhaps a dozen species of trees and the commercial spice products that some of them produce. All are members of the genus Cinnamomum in the family Lauraceae. Only a few of them are grown commercially fo...
this stuff right?
Melange ( or ) – also called the "spice" – is the name of the fictional drug central to the Dune series of science fiction novels by Frank Herbert, and derivative works. In the series, the most essential and valuable commodity in the universe is melange, a geriatric drug that gives the user a longer life span, greater vitality, and heightened awareness; it can also unlock prescience in some humans, depending upon the dosage and the consumer's physiology. This prescience-enhancing property makes safe and accurate interstellar travel possible. Carol Hart analyzes the concept in the essay "...
> Herbert writes repeatedly, starting in Dune (1965), that melange possesses the odor of cinnamon.
SAME THING
I was about to make that joke :<
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
fuck it
> Cinnamon is a spice
SEE?
> Melange – also called the "spice" –
14:21
do me favour, when dealing with 'in' jokes, please keep me out of them to the point where I don't even have to suffer you making them.
in JavaScript, 17 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
runjQuery (a >> b >> (if cond then c else d)) $ "#header"
I should get out more.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah getting high on cinammon, seeing future and shit.
@thecoshman It's not an 'in' joke. I don't think Dune is still fashionable these days.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what ever the fuck it is, point stands.
Ubantu, the new OS
14:26
TIL people still cosplay Warcraft 3 characters
s/people/Bartek/
just like there are still movies about old times ... such a news
@thecoshman Get yourself some pop culture!
@R.MartinhoFernandes why?
@Jefffrey and that's not the funniest thing in the question, actually
14:28
Ah, the MVC stuff again. Once more I'll have to force my self to stop thinking about it.
@thecoshman Because then you'd get these jokes.
> I assume ubantu is a linux distribution
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm fine with out getting them.
how dare you assume that?
Robot, keep that comedy subroutine. Dune jokes are gold.
14:29
It's not a particularly funny typo
@CatPlusPlus you are just grumpy today
Have you seen David Lynch's Dune movie? You should. It's horrible.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what? I care not to get them. Even if I did get them, I'd still want to not be included in them.
@Jefffrey the guy used a windows crosscompiler because the linux one didn't see <windows.h>
I should recommend him to use Wine
that would make sense, huh?
14:31
i guess
My lord, has it really only been two weeks so far this year? I am already fed up with it all.
@thecoshman That was quick
It took you two weeks? I was fed it up with it the day before I went back.
@SamDeHaan The day before I went back I was feed up with being at home
in other news, GLFW is really turning out nice
14:40
@Jefffrey His isGrumpy flag only has a true value. No other values are valid.
@BartekBanachewicz which one is that again?
@thecoshman the C one with multimonitor support and stuff, i mean, just windowing and context
@BartekBanachewicz no idea. I give up.
latest haskell binding is based on 3.03, so just one minor version behind
@thecoshman glfw.org
@TonyTheLion meh flags
14:43
@thecoshman Ah, well. That happens. I was travelling my entire break, so I didn't get that.
sigh ICE... if I swap two includes, it disappears #wtf
@BartekBanachewicz glfw is awesome just for the api consistency with opengl
is it not possible to build opengl programs without using any external lib. — Nish 1 min ago
std::opengl
14:48
We need more details about that ubantu operating system. — Jefffrey 23 mins ago
heh
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25759909 <-- article about the police chief facing legal charges. Only a single paragraph half way through admits that this is in his legal position as corporation sole for the force, and that he shares no personal liability in the charges. Fucking BBC
SAM
SAM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What?
Hello everybody....!
hey o

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