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15:00
exceptions are no joke
@BartekBanachewicz to be fair, reflection is like ... like erm... like something that looks really tempting until you get in too deep and realise what a horrible mess you have made
@thecoshman no, not really. It has its uses.
That's what everyone says.
Lightness is not there, so I'll shoot with the DB model generation.
Cue "serialisation"
15:00
@BartekBanachewicz it does yes. But it is must be treated very carefully.
stop being right robot
just for a second damn it. :)
someone clever smart said something along the lines of "better to not speak and be thought a fool than speak up and remove all doubt"
Reflection is nice for plugins, I guess.
user3010322
compile-time reflection would be bestest.
user3010322
Iterating over members, member functions, etc.
user3010322
15:02
That kind of thing.
@ThePhD why does it have to be compile-time?
user3010322
Being able to ask "do you have this member function?"
@ThePhD wrong
@ThePhD nah
user3010322
Instead of inventing a type trait per function name. D:
15:02
@ThePhD That's already possible...
static reflection would be cool idneed
that use (asking for a particular method) is actually fucking invalid.
I mean, native support
@ThePhD ... you must inherit this type, thus have this function... if you choose to implement it properly and thus fuck it all up, balls to you.
@ThePhD So, it's just sugar?
15:03
@thecoshman fuck inheritance. Typeclasses.
(for each data member of this class sort of thing - yes this is possible, I know, but not "easily")
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes A whole heap of necessary sugar!
> I'll cry if I don't get the syntax I want
@BartekBanachewicz vOv same difference (just pretend I do know exactly what typeclasses are)
user3010322
15:04
I won't cry!
user3010322
I'll just be mildly miffed.
@ThePhD you like unions, you point is invalid.
@ScarletAmaranth And that is used for...?
@thecoshman typeclasses are <OVERSIMPLIFICATION> interfaces that can be implemented for a given class from outside of it
3 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Cue "serialisation"
15:04
@thecoshman Concepts.
@BartekBanachewicz I see...
are concept maps meant to be like type classes?
@DeadMG ... see previous about pretending to know exactly what is being said :P
@AndyProwl They're not meant to be, AFAIK.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have no idea, serialize the entire class sort of thing?
15:05
@thecoshman It's a totally different thing to actual inheritance.
@AndyProwl they have been discarded
@ScarletAmaranth I know, well at least for the moment. Doesn't mean they won't be introduced at some point
Why is serialisation not yet a solved problem :(
They're just not part of Concepts Lite
@thecoshman That's actually pretty cool when you think about it.
15:06
@DeadMG I'm sure I'll come across it at some stage
user3010322
I wouldn't mind if compile-time reflection is built into the language. Then when you need runtime-reflection, you could just wrap up the bits you'd need and store them.
@BartekBanachewicz ah you see, there's the problem, I don't really want to think about it.
@ThePhD may I ask you why you are not using a dynamic (broad sense) language? Genuinely curious.
@AndyProwl not only are they not a part of the concepts lite proposal, they have been publicly denounced in the Concepts for the STL proposal as well
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... not fully defined problem?
@BartekBanachewicz sigh, ThePhD
@R.MartinhoFernandes I no know.
@thecoshman I've said that way too many times already.
@BartekBanachewicz we all have
@thecoshman It's about dynamic polymorphism without intrusive inheritance
@AndyProwl ... that's a lot of words that all make sense in isolation.
15:08
@thecoshman To be clear, I was being snarky with that statement. Basically, why is it that so many people vying for reflection actually really want serialisation?
@AndyProwl It's not dynamic.
@thecoshman lol, and probably not well put together
I'm sure I could understand it if I was to spend 5 minutes caring about it.
@DeadMG It's not? I'm talking about type classes here, not concept maps
@AndyProwl (read N3351)
15:08
@thecoshman come on, it's really not that big deal.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... they are? I never saw how the two related really...
@AndyProwl type classes are compile-time. (i.e. static)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because reflection is useful for many other things too, and doesn't tie them to any particular serialization implementation.
@AndyProwl It's totally not.
@thecoshman It's quite often the only use case you can ever pry from them.
@BartekBanachewicz come on, it's not like I do anything respectable programming wise.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't know... AOP is a nice concept, that AFAIK requires reflection...
@JBL and the 'no shit' award goes too...
my memory of AOP was that it was a terrible idea.
@BartekBanachewicz Hm, right, I'll have to re-study that part
@thecoshman A friend told me about AspectJ lately. He did swear a lot.
It's amusing me much more than it should that the authentication code I'm trying to refactor has functions like "login", "relogin" and "loglogout"
15:11
@jalf what about loglogin?
I'd call that log2in and log2out
@BartekBanachewicz Nope, doesn't seem to be there :)
@jalf nlogout too?
I knew about the existence of relogin, but I'm not exactly sure what it does. I guess I'll have to find out. :(
@thecoshman That sort of requires the ability to generate code at runtime. Wildly different, I'd say.
I haven't checked, but I hope that loglogout just writes a log message when a user logs out
Please don't let there be more it than that
15:12
@jalf if only we could name functions descriptively so their name would tell us what they do
@R.MartinhoFernandes AFAIK no. AOP can be done at compile time
@DeadMG well I can see a place for it... but I can see it bringing just as many headaches.
@thecoshman You mean like templates?
@BartekBanachewicz in theory it is rather simple, in practice it's a PITA to use well.
@thecoshman he also used "fucking bullshit" and "terrible mess" a lot
@R.MartinhoFernandes sort of, but with templates, you have to write your code so FOO is clearing using the BAR aspect code. with AOP you write the BAR code, and weave it into code that matches the criteria, say FOO
@BartekBanachewicz like i said, PITA to use :P
AspectJ you compile your normal code, then 'weave' the aspect code into the byte code. Later, you can run it.
user3010322
15:16
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think sugar for has member function and stuff would be nice. There's also things with runtime reflection like gluing shit together from an assembly you don't own later down the line (e.g., plugin architectures. Can be helpful if you don't want to have the typical monolithic plugin base class, I suppose). Those are the only reasons I want for it.
@thecoshman So you still need the ability to generate code.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but not at run time...
user3010322
I also think at one point I would have liked it for UI, but I forgot the use case I had in mind because it's been so long. =[
Lemme guess it: making shitty generic auto-generated UIs.
@ThePhD vOv you do not need reflection for plugins, even in C++
15:18
@thecoshman Meh, yes, you do.
Any decent plugin system will start by asking plugins what they can do.
@R.MartinhoFernandes was reading up on this actually, you can do it. (though it might have been limit in what it can support)
@ThePhD "has member function" is nearly always a bad way
reflection is a real nice-to-have if there's an option to use it on demand :P but I can't imagine how that could possibly work :)
@BartekBanachewicz well, not like you can compiler-verify semantics
anyway expression SFINAE, no? /cc @R.M
@BartekBanachewicz has member function is the only way to actually check
user3010322
15:20
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think it was for projecting the names of members directly to the UI so you could create a dependency between a member variable and the UI's change handles.
has `operator==` -> compiler can check
"does it actually compare?" -> compiler obviously can't check
so "has member function" *is* actually useful (constraints / concepts lite / expression tempaltes)
@ThePhD ew
user3010322
Trying to match the C++ code up to the UI directly unless the user stepped in and provided their own information.
@ScarletAmaranth That's not "has member function", though.
@thecoshman I guessed right, it seems.
@R.MartinhoFernandes eh?
15:21
"Please enter your full_name"
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's a good first start, and great for programmer tools. vOv
I get the feeling even if you did have reflection @ThePhD would make a horrible plugin system
user3010322
I wouldn't have a plugin system.
@ThePhD not really.
@ScarletAmaranth Testing for validity of expressions is not quite the same as testing for existence of members.
Especially when it comes to operators.
15:23
@R.MartinhoFernandes care to expand on that?
@ScarletAmaranth Uh what
@CatPlusPlus what what?
I don't follow the logic
somebody said that "has member function" is nearly always a bad way
suggesting the lack of semantic part potentially?
except for the semantic part can't be verified
vOv
15:25
so any way... unity3D... is anybody else interested in playing around with it a wee bit. I'm thinking of making some sort of fantasy forest walking around thing. In no way a 'game', just a 'thing'. Play around with some procedural terrain, trees, rivers. Add some AI creatures. Maybe later add some proper interaction with the world stuff. Maybe allow you host a world that others can connect to.
lol
Wait, you're serious.
@BartekBanachewicz But wait, if I have a function (say) f :: Monad m => m a -> Integer, and that function uses >>=, then the function which is going to be called is decided at runtime based on the argument of f, no?
Multiplayer is always fun
aaaaaaaalways
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, right, naturally
15:26
@AndyProwl It's not decided at runtime
@CatPlusPlus feel free to write that code :P
@thecoshman I have a better idea. globalgamejam.org is coming up. Do something crazy and awesome for that! :)
I mean scratch that
@CatPlusPlus So the exact type of the argument to f must be known at compile time?
@AndyProwl Depends. The optimiser can specialise functions if it knows enough.
15:27
@jalf ergh, sounds like too much commitment
No nvm I haven't said anything I'm just too lazy to delete it
@AndyProwl how are you supposed to check if m is indeed a Monad otherwise?
and too short term and fast paced.
@thecoshman on the other hand, it might actually give you something to show for your trouble... Unlike the other approach ;)
wait maybe I'm confused now
15:27
Type classes are vtables
user3010322
Meh.
@AndyProwl The fallback is a call that takes a Monad vtable as first parameter, used when the compiler cannot specialise the function.
@ThePhD channeling Kyrostat?
user3010322
... Or something that's not Kyrostat.
15:28
@jalf vOv it'll probably take too long for me to learn how to get started with unity :P
user3010322
At all.
@CatPlusPlus Yes that's what I was thinking about /cc @DeadMG
So it's a form of dynamic polymorphism with compile-time type safety
type classes are really similar to interfaces
I was just going to call my 'thing' "Forest"... you know, on account of it being some sort of forest that you get to explore
user3010322
Meh, why do I bother.
15:29
@AndyProwl C++ concepts won't work that way, though.
@CatPlusPlus ... here to help? surely not!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, that's static polymorphism
There are also pragmas to force the compiler to specialise functions.
I was mostly objecting to DeadMG's sentence
21 mins ago, by DeadMG
@AndyProwl It's not dynamic.
@ThePhD I fear it is a bit of a thing now to bring it up.
15:30
@thecoshman maybe. I'm just subtly hinting that other approach of "I'm going to poke at this a bit from time to time, and if anyone else wans they can join in" is guaranteed to yield no results ;)
I have yet to fully understand why we need axioms (as they won't be verified by the compiler anyway) and the "divide" between semantic / syntactic part (c++ concepts wise)
user3010322
@melak47 How do you take the render target that you use for D2D and get it to the screen? Do you draw it somewhere with a full screen quad? Or something else?
@jalf we already tried the "Lets all get a team sorted out plan shit out" approach, that didn't go well at all.
@ScarletAmaranth AFAIK axioms were axed.
@ThePhD yeah, I just plugged it in instead of my gbuffer's diffuse channel
user3010322
15:31
Well.
user3010322
That explains a lot.
@ScarletAmaranth The fact that they can't be verified by the compiler doesn't mean they are useless
@ThePhD why? what are you doing?
@ThePhD KYROSTAT IS NOT DEAD
4
Many type class rules can't be verified either
user3010322
15:31
@melak47 Is there no way to have what you do with D2D immediately attached to the target output?
@AndyProwl They are not stated in the typeclass definition, though.
user3010322
Like, to the actual framebuffer?
@CatPlusPlus who knows, perhaps the ideas can be recovered.
@R.MartinhoFernandes True
@ThePhD I don't see why you couldn't draw into the swapchain's backbuffer, it should have the render target flag set
15:32
@thecoshman Yep. Which is why I'm saying that if you want different results, taking a weekend out of the calendar to really drill down and dedicate your time to a small, short-term project is probably the best bet
especially if it's tied to some external motivation like the GGJ
@R.MartinhoFernandes mm, I don't think they were, unless it has happened very recently - needless to say, what's all this hype about the semantic part anyway - how is is_regular( must have ==, !=, ctor, dtor, etc. ) (syntactic) different from "is_regular()" enriched by "some form of semantics that will never be verified"
@jalf may be. But to be fair, just under two weeks is not very far away. I very much doubt I can get far at all by then.
maybe another time.
Still, I'd like to see how far "I've started work on this... any one care to add something to it" will work.
@thecoshman :)
@AndyProwl feel free to tell me why ;) I mean, I understand that constraints should be expressed in terms of semantics rather than syntax, but well fuck, not like compilers can do anything about "what you mean by saying X"
this is why I like ccache:
cache directory                     /home/sehe/.ccache
cache hit (direct)                  1869
cache hit (preprocessed)             148
cache miss                           827
called for link                      117
15:34
@thecoshman I think you're looking at it :p
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus I hope it stays dead. It was Domagoj's idea, and he's not here to hold it up; other things should be moved onto, or we'll just not do anything at all, because why not. vOv
This is what you get when you configure TeamCity to just build all 3rd party dependencies (boost, cryptocpp, curl) every single time. But ccache solved the build time (still only 53s)
@jalf no. All the 'group' things here started with the group bullshit first. The only decent 'Build it and they will come' thing was coliru... we came, and it was built.
@sehe interesting
@ScarletAmaranth If you can tag your type as "adhering to X" the compiler can verify that you provided a properly tagged type. But then again if I'm not mistaken that was the purpose of concept maps, which aren't there anymore. So, well... you may be right.
user3010322
15:36
@melak47 Yaay, it works now by asking it to stream directly into the framebuffer rather than a render target. :D
@ThePhD lol, no it was not. If anything, it was @DeadMG who the lions puppys share of the idae.
@ThePhD what were you doing before?
AFAIK all Dom did was park a domain
user3010322
@thecoshman It seemed to fall apart the fastest when he disappeared.
He's good at that.
user3010322
15:37
@melak47 Making a RenderBuffer2D and drawing into that.
@ThePhD he was supposed to make a site to help sort out things, so we started to wait for it.... and wait... and wait...
@AndyProwl you can still tag your type so, with syntactic constraints, there's no way to map nor inherit "concepts" anymore, so fat chance... but you can do something like: template <regular T> // (if not T regular, give a sensible error message)
@ThePhD It was puppy's project
To many cooks spoiled the broth when it came to Kyrostat
15:37
Domagoj was just doing a webpage
user3010322
So wait.
@ThePhD no
stop right there
No one knows.
user3010322
You're telling me that the original Kyrostat idea died because someone couldn't deliver... a webpage?
It's all a myth.
15:38
@AndyProwl or, of course, template <typename T> requires regular<T> sort of notation
@ThePhD Yes
user3010322
That by waiting on a webpage, people burned out? :c
LOUNGE PROJECTS
@ThePhD whatever that is.
@BartekBanachewicz I'v only rigged the linux build agent up today (I used to be just booting into Linux 99% of the time, but now I'll be forced to stay on the windows side of the fence)
15:38
@ThePhD plus the fact that he was supposed to be doing something else IIRC ^^
@ThePhD general organisational incompetence
@ThePhD waiting => losing momentum => people burn out, move on, forget about it, lose motivation, do something else
CAPS LOCK
Good morning people.
Kyrostat is just a legend, carried down the generations by oral tradition.
yay, snow... The trip home is gonna be fun :|
15:39
@ScarletAmaranth ¬_¬ far too much
Feb 20 '13 at 2:48, by ThePhD
It's not dead yet.
user3010322
Stil have my personal fork. Still working on it occasionally.
February 2013? That was past the autopsy.
user3010322
I'm learning stuff, so vOv
15:40
Kyrostat must not be forgotten, lest we repeat the same mistakes again.
"not dead yet"
You're funny.
Also that thread was my postmortem so there you go
user1804599
Doing web development without doing web development is fun.
I forget... is ThePhD the last of the founding believers, or the first the resurrectionists?
@jalf I've said it before, but it bears repeating: one person nearly has to write enough to achieve some sort of critical mass before there's any real hope of others contributing meaningfully.
15:40
Robot, halp with the semantic part, show me a good example of why a fully fledged concept is better than a syntax checker for existence of certain... well, almost traits (except for the fact that it's "nicer" to define stuff in terms of semantics) @R.MartinhoFernandes
@rightfold repost!
@JerryCoffin Yeah, pretty much. Although strike the "nearly" part
@JerryCoffin "Build it and they will come"
@thecoshman AFAIK when he arrived we had already chopped it into bits and made delicious schwarma out of the pieces.
@R.MartinhoFernandes right so, then it was me who was the last to give up hope :P
15:41
@jalf I have seen it happen otherwise--I'd guess it's about one hundredth of a percent of the time, but once in a great while it does actually happen.
@EtiennedeMartel you experience unity?
user1804599
Hmm. I’m hungry.
@thecoshman You were the first resurrectionist :v
@thecoshman If by "experience" you mean "use", no.
15:43
@CatPlusPlus #NeverStopedBeliving
@EtiennedeMartel yes. oh well.
I've used Unity
<face palm>Fucking calanders shared via spread sheets
@CatPlusPlus thoughts?
I don't remember much from Kyrostat, I remember waiting for Domagoj to finally screw the web page and so some basic rendering with me, and I was writing the most random component ever, a matchmaker, then everything went to hell for some reason
It's cool
@CatPlusPlus good enough for me :P
15:45
I've played a bit with the editor itself to gather ideas for my own editor.
But I haven't used the engine itself.
user3010322
I used the editor and the engine.
user3010322
At a time when it had no 2D support.
user3010322
And I made a 2D game for the global game jam.
user3010322
Suffice to say it has entirely soured my view of Unity altogether.
@ThePhD why?
user3010322
15:46
Because ~~~~Team Leader~~~~
Doing 2D with 3D isn't fun.
Did you make Bad Rats clone
@ThePhD just use orthogonal axonometry and you're good to go : - / ?
"just lock Z axis, sometimes"
user3010322
Seriously, I said "Unity doesn't have 2D... why are we making 2D with it?"
user3010322
15:47
"Because it's Unity and we only have three days LET'S MAKE MORE BAD DECISIONS!"
Unity has too many dimensions?
user3010322
Bad decisions were made indeed.
Even has a fourth one.
user3010322
Not surprisingly enough, however, that Unity team was one of the only ones I could join.
user3010322
Everybody else was like "WE"RE GOING TO USE JAVASCRIPT AND DO SOMETHING AWESOME!!!!1111111111111111111"
15:48
@ThePhD You mean they were shit enough?
user3010322
Which went spectacularly.
user3010322
One team used AS3, but they wouldn't take me.
user3010322
Already full, team of premades.
Unity supports ECMAScript derivative
@EtiennedeMartel Nope.
plot plot this, narrative philosophy that
BioShock sucked because the gameplay was terrible.
15:50
@DeadMG finally somebody realizing this ^^
gunplay - bad
plasmids - bad
upgrades - bad
combat - bad
That's why I watched BioShock and didn't play it
Hey, at least it didn't have cover based shooting mechanics.
Also the part after Big Reveal (tm) was just meh altogether
and the funny thing is
user3010322
user3010322
15:52
Alt +2122
@EtiennedeMartel ¬_¬ not even worth joking about
Bioshock Infinite appeared in many a "top X list of 2013" despite having not improved on anything gameplay-wise (compared to its predecessors)
0153
Shift + 9, t, m, Shift + 0
> So this is not going to be a review of Bioshock.
15:53
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you expect him to even read stuff before he judges them?
@ScarletAmaranth It was more fun for me than B1
@ScarletAmaranth So? Still one hell of a ride.
Gosh, even the subtitle.
> The problem of what the game is about
well, yes, I skimmed forwards until he actually talked about the game.
15:53
Environments had a bit to do with that, too
@CatPlusPlus gunplay was still fairly sub par, plasmids were boring for the most part, upgrades were +5% damage oh the creativity!
@DeadMG The article is not about that.
ah
then it's worthless irrelevant crap
Dark narrow corridors are just not that good
@EtiennedeMartel sure, the story and the setting and the characters are amazing, but the gameplay is still kinda shit
15:54
@CatPlusPlus Rapture looked nice enough.
@ScarletAmaranth I was too enthralled to notice, honestly.
Yeah but I like Columbia better
A game isn't the sum of its parts.
It's more than that.
also, "god only knows" in Bioshock Infinite was AWESOME
@EtiennedeMartel Honestly, I don't even have that big of a problem with cover-based shooting. The problem is when developers don't have any ideas, so they just go cover-based shooting right away and it's super badly done and bland.
@EtiennedeMartel Or, if you're BioShock, a lot less.
@ScarletAmaranth There are no plasmids in Bioshock Infinite :P
15:55
My major grip with BI was the fucking ending
@R.MartinhoFernandes right, whatever the hell they're called :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes They're called "vigors".
Don't tell that to me.
Choo choo all aboard exposition train
here's 20 minutes of us dumping exposition on you, enjoy the ride
15:56
> It is, however, hairy space hopper levels of pretentious. It comes and goes in and out of its own butt the whole way through but the ending is the point of maximum own butt penetration. It wallows in a bit of abstract meta narrative - wanky wanky word word - that doesn't really serve the essential plot points, and I found myself thinking: "If this ends with us meeting God and God looks like Ken Levine, then I'm gonna fucking punch someone."
Let's just walk slowly while we infodump
"will the circle, be unbroken..." good thing the music was awesome
^ Yahtzee about BioShock Infinite.
It still ended up being ZP's best game of the year.
The reveals were good enough, but the execution of that ending aaaaa
Could be worse I guess
@EtiennedeMartel begrudgingly no?
15:59
@thecoshman I don't think so.
DXHR was worse
But not as heartfelt as with 2012's Spec Ops: The Line.
(Which you should still all play)

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