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14:00
That's more or less fine.
Yeah
What I mean is that #include <type_traits> #include <mymeta> might hide a missing #include <type_traits> in <mymeta>
So <mymeta> always first.
Oh. I don't do that.
Probably the only thing I try to do is make my includes first, but it's not strict.
Yeah, that's what Stacked was on about.
Dr Crooked and Mr Stacked
14:02
s/Mr/Miss/
user3010322
Above that is the detail namespace for all the calls. Calls get separated out by using tag types (here). An example of the usage is here, which is somewhat cleaner than what I was doing before.
14:05
Those links appear to be broken. Are they private links?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit good one
@StackedCrooked yes they point to his code
private repo because he's a sissy
@BartekBanachewicz hehe ow.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah I'm a terrible person.
user3010322
u.u
user3010322
14:06
I ain't a sissy!
BTW I started chapter 4
user3010322
Github has a policy that if your code ain't on an Open Source license, you don't get a free repo.
such types
wow
much math
user3010322
I have no idea what the license is going to be.
@ThePhD MIT, for example. It's a good one.
14:07
@ThePhD What?
No they don't
I think all of my code is on MIT.
If you don't have a license, you get implicit copyright.
@BartekBanachewicz Chapter 4 of what?
My engine was on CC 3 restricted, and then I realized it doesn't hold.
user3010322
14:08
13
A: Can open source code hosted at github be closed-source?

meagar Is it technically possible to take a public repository I own on github, and turn it private at a later date? You cannot have private repositories unless you pay for them. Github's Plans and Pricing state that you can sign up for the free public repositories, and upgrade/downgrade your accoun...

@R.MartinhoFernandes newest Creative Commons.
@Rapptz I wish no license meant no license.
@R.MartinhoFernandes look at my post below :P
user3010322
@Rapptz Github will take down your Repo if you're not paying and you have a closed-source repository out in the open for free.
@BartekBanachewicz That could be any of six? nine? different licenses. Not sure.
14:09
@StackedCrooked no. default should what's mine is mine. You should not assume everything is free to be taken.
I don't want to bother putting license text in my code because I think it's a silly role-playing game without any real meaning.
@ThePhD Are you misreading on purpose?
Anyway, don't use CC for code, other than CC0.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah that
@StackedCrooked it's mostly for lawyers I think :S
14:10
@StackedCrooked GH can put that for you. Just choose MIT.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It was CC3.0-NC-BY-SA
@StackedCrooked Use CC0.
I wanted the NC bit but yeah, doesn't cover binaries so...
MIT doesn't have the NC bit o_O
user3010322
@Rapptz IIRC, private repos cost money. The entire reason you'd want them private is because they're closed-source. :c
14:11
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know. I figured I don't want that after all.
Yes, they cost money. So what?
All private repos mean is that 1) others can't view them without your permission, 2) people can't fork them without your permission
It doesn't automatically choose a license for you.
user3010322
They don't have a license restriction on public repos?
No.
14:12
@ThePhD no
@BartekBanachewicz thx
Private/public is unrelated to licensing.
@Earlz Legality doesn't enter into it. Making a git repo private has nothing to do with the licencing of the source code. Making code "open source" doesn't obligate you to continue making the code available forever, otherwise I could find a lot of aging software developers and sue them for not keeping their open source college projects online for 30 years. — meagar Apr 29 '11 at 18:39
Best way of putting it.
yep
user3010322
> Generally speaking, the absence of a license means that the default copyright laws apply. This means that you retain all rights to your source code and that nobody else may reproduce, distribute, or create derivative works from your work. This might not be what you intend.
user3010322
14:13
Ah, there we go.
user3010322
So it can be public, but you still retain all copyright.
5 mins ago, by Rapptz
If you don't have a license, you get implicit copyright.
user3010322
Helpful, I guess. Shrug.
what about forks?
@BartekBanachewicz That would be illegal without your permission.
14:14
@thecoshman thanks for your valuable precisions
@R.MartinhoFernandes GH doesn't prevent from forking repos with no license, no?
@BartekBanachewicz Forks are derivative works, so it's illegal.
@Rapptz but how do you prove ownership?
@StackedCrooked SSH key
@BartekBanachewicz GC is not in the business of law enforcement, though.
@StackedCrooked That's a question for courts.
14:14
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah but... That's not hard, eh.
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, it is.
I can give you an exclusive personal license.
@ereOn no. you just fail at markdown. there's even a bloody "fixed font" button to help you :)
fat
er, I mean, hello
Could also have this
Oh, right, I guess that's exactly the opposite.
14:16
I need "Anyone but Stallman and Torvalds"
just Stallman is way too permissive
user1804599
Python wat.
@BartekBanachewicz And personal licenses don't have to be public. Only the licensee needs it so he can prove anything that needs proving should shit hit the fan.
Why does GCC 4.8 spew Wnarrowing when I (explicitly, via uniform initialisation) convert a char to an unsigned char? The conversion is well-defined, isn’t it?
user1804599
def foo():
    raise ValueError()
with self.assertRaises(ValueError):
    foo()
# AssertionError: ValueError not raised
14:17
@sehe vOv should I say you are welcome, or to fuck off?
user1804599
:|
user3010322
Also @Rapptz HEY I AIN"T A SISSY. D:
The biggest sissy.
user3010322
:c
> If RMS really wants a miserable little 6502 assembler I can always amend the license. I’m not unreasonable. But he has to ask.
14:18
Grmpf, that’s kind of annoying, clutters my output with meaningless warnings/errors.
@ThePhD only sissies say that
real men don't need to
@KonradRudolph What does your conversion look like?
25 secs ago, by StackedCrooked
14:19
@StackedCrooked That's an ill-formed program, and appropriately it's an error.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
user3010322
@Rapptz It's just for protection. u.u
@ThePhD use a tinfoil hat instead
MIT license prevents you from going to jail in the likely event when someone blows up their PC when using your code.
@KonradRudolph Time to pragma it up.
all licenses do that
it's the most copy pasted passage
@StackedCrooked Because narrowing conversions are not allowed in list-initialisation.
@KonradRudolph That's ill-formed. Either use (), which does not forbid narrowing conversions, or cast it inside the {}.
user3010322
14:23
Hm. @Borgleader Shoulder something called RenderTarget or RenderBuffer as an object also have a DepthStencil attached to it? You would create it by specify and Depth Format (RenderBuffer{width, height, DepthStenicil::Depth24Stencil8/DepthStencil::None})
@R.MartinhoFernandes But is it actually narrow? It seems to map out-of-range values just fine – but then, that doesn’t mean very much
user3010322
Right now it's like that, but I was thinking of separating it out for more control.
@BartekBanachewicz is a disclaimer really required for that?
@harold mhm. but IANAL.
@harold yes
user3010322
14:23
Warranty.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS
FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR
COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER
IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN
CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.
this bit right here
user3010322
Apparently people can sue you for code you write that does things outside of what they express.
@ThePhD cough
@R.MartinhoFernandes The whole point is that I want to banish function-style casts from my code because they’re potentially unsafe, and replace them by safe alternatives. static_cast is a bit too verbose for my purpose though (which is just to use the char value as an index …)
user3010322
It's put in caps in licenses because when Boost asked about it to a real lawyer, they said that was what was required by law.
14:24
@KonradRudolph It maps but that's not the same as being able to represent all values.
If it’s illegal I’ll go with a function
@Rapptz well, that's what people do, that doesn't by itself mean that it's required
@R.MartinhoFernandes If it maps all values …
unsigned char cannot represent negative values.
@harold doesn't hurt either way
14:25
@harold people will sue you for anything they can bub.
They still can, they just lose
@R.MartinhoFernandes That’s my point: negative char values seem to be mapped to the correct corresponding unsigned char values
@harold oho, I wouldn't be so sure, at least in 'Murica
@KonradRudolph That's not the criteria. The "corresponding" values are other values.
@KonradRudolph I fail to find a good definition of narrowing conversion on the net. But I always thought it implied lossiness.
14:26
@ThePhD People can at least attempt to sue you for practically anything. A disclaimer like this just makes it easy (or easier) for a court to refuse to hear the case.
unsigned char cannot represent -1.
user3010322
@JerryCoffin Well, s'good to know.
@StackedCrooked That’s my point: the conversion seems not to be lossy in practice, which is why I assumed it was legal
@KonradRudolph It is lossy.
@R.MartinhoFernandes We’re past that point.
14:26
I thought the sasme.
Does 255 mean 255 or -1?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not in practice. That’s my point.
@KonradRudolph There's no past that point.
If it cannot represent that, it's narrowing.
Nothing else to consider.
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's awfully philosophical, you know
@R.MartinhoFernandes -1. Obviously. char has no 255
14:27
The bit pattern doesn't even change.
@harold it's not
@KonradRudolph As an unsigned char.
user3010322
HNNNNGH
@R.MartinhoFernandes Any unsigned type is basically a modulo number system. Any number in the system can represent an infinite number of numbers from outside the system.
user3010322
GAME IDEA BURSTING THROUGH MY HEEEAD
14:28
@R.MartinhoFernandes Undeflow is defined for unsigned numbers, though.
user3010322
Gosh, I gotta implement things faster. u.u
fuck it tablflip
@BartekBanachewicz That doesn't make them negative.
user3010322
So, now I need to do manual text rendering.
@ThePhD or you could write a game instead.
user3010322
14:28
@BartekBanachewicz I have everything I need to do that
@R.MartinhoFernandes unsigned char has no -1. There simply is no ambiguity. There exists a trivial bijective mapping between char and unsigned char (which is used by static_cast). I had assumed that this mapping was used when initialising an unsigned char from a char.
@ThePhD except skill, hrhrh.
user3010322
Right now it's the "Port to OpenGL" bit that's slowing me down quite a bit.
@KonradRudolph It is used in that situation.
@ThePhD I think "I need my own engine" bit is slowing you down. vOv
14:29
But that doesn't matter.
user1804599
Meh.
If the conversion uses a non-identity mapping, it's a narrowing conversion.
user1804599
yield and raise don’t go well together.
@R.MartinhoFernandes If that’s the case then the code is safe. Why isn’t it legal?
It's the definition, I don't know what else I need to say.
14:30
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah. Okay. That answers my question.
@KonradRudolph At least if memory serves, the standard defined an injective mapping from char to unsigned char, but the reverse is not true.
@KonradRudolph Because narrowing conversions are forbidden with {}.
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I don't mind having my own engine. :3
@ThePhD that's not the point at all.
@R.MartinhoFernandes But an identity mapping can be composed from char -> uchar and uchar -> char.
14:30
> Showing 83 changed files with 15,434 additions and 7,729 deletions. Show Diff Stats
Dude.
This isn't how you do commits.
@StackedCrooked Therefore you can convert from char -> char!
I won't ask who that was
user3010322
@Rapptz I don't commit 'till it builds and runs.
14:31
@R.MartinhoFernandes wow
@R.MartinhoFernandes That’s begging the question. I was asking why the conversion was narrowing. You’ve explained that now. I had assumed (without looking it up) that “narrowing” in C++ means the same as in .NET. It doesn’t.
user3010322
There's no point committing a bunch of little pieces of shit that don't work.
user3010322
That's just a waste of time.
I could use that so much
Oh god stop.
How do you make 15,434 additions without it working a little in-between?
user3010322
14:32
When you change the underlying graphics system? vOv
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, the hole doing things from scratch is so tedious
user3010322
#define FURROVINEOPENGL
@KonradRudolph ideone.com/1wxpuK Or does it?
user3010322
KERBLAM
but for me, it's got to the point where just starting a project is enough effort to stop me working on it.
user3010322
14:32
@thecoshman You must persist!!
@Rapptz HOLY FUCK
@R.MartinhoFernandes But the warning message doesn't mention narrowing conversion.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No. Your code is unrelated. A “narrowing” conversion in C# is intuitively defined as a conversion from a larger to a smaller value range, where conversions would be lossy. C# is perfectly at liberty to additionally impose constraints on explicit (not narrowing) conversions
Non-narrowing conversions are implicit.
@ThePhD you don't seem to get it... it's basically "oh that's a cool idea, fuck it"
14:34
@KonradRudolph The definition of "narrowing" (for these purposes at least) in C++ is somewhat strange and in places downright counterintuitive. For one example, it has special dispensation for constants, so (for example) converting from, say, long long to char does not qualify as a narrowing conversion, if the compiler knows the actual value and knows that a char will hold that value.
For widening/narrowing/whatever in C# and VB, see msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/k1e94s7e.aspx
The waters are additionally muddied by the fact that VB uses Narrowing and Widening instead of explicit and implicit though.
user3010322
@thecoshman You can't fuck a cool idea until you make it. :D
> A narrowing conversion changes a value to a data type that might not be able to hold some of the possible values.
Hmm.
@ThePhD o_0 you can commit WIP... just don't commit to master until it works
14:35
push.
@ThePhD vOv
Reading this (VB) I can't find proof that it's a narrowing conversion.
But I am mostly interested in C++ anyway.
@Rapptz no, you can push your WIP on separate branches, it's master that you can't commit to (local or remote) without knowing it will work.
user3010322
Well, I only have a master branch
Oh I see what you mean.
14:36
@StackedCrooked It shows all the widening conversions, everything else is narrowing
user3010322
I really don't feel like making feature branches. u.u
I have a develop and master branch
@ThePhD you're doing it wrong.
@ThePhD Being able to pick separate breakage reasons among 15kLOC seems like a good reason to commit for me.
@ThePhD it's not "feeling". It's either doing things right or not.
14:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes All his commits are like this
@ThePhD there is no reason at all not to use them.
@harold It doesn't say that. It has a section about narrowing conversions.
Everything he does WRT coding is based on his feelings not knowledge.
@ThePhD for fuck sake dude, you have such enthusiasm for stuff, why can't you do things well?
What would you expect.
@thecoshman because what I just wrote.
14:38
> The standard narrowing conversions include the following:

The reverse directions of the widening conversions in the preceding table (except that every type widens to itself)
@StackedCrooked It almost says it, it says "The reverse directions of the widening conversions in the preceding table"
I am not even saying it's extremely terrible itself.
user3010322
@Rapptz You'll notice my commits became a lot more frequent with the potential that @Borgleader might have been helping with Furrovine. The only reason I program like this is because I'm alone -- it's easier for me to track what went wrong and how with a big commit.
@StackedCrooked (Also "A narrowing conversion changes a value to a data type that might not be able to hold some of the possible values.")
@ThePhD no it's not.
14:38
@ThePhD bullshit
@ThePhD Bullshit. Most of us here program our hobby stuff alone.
the fact you feel it does doesn't change it
@ThePhD I work alone and I commit often. As do most people.
No one commits in 15kLOC-commits.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess that brings us back to the previous discussion. Ah well.
14:39
@StackedCrooked No, if you insist on misinterpreting it, see the table.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes That number is mostly bloated by file moves that SourceTree couldn't accurately keep track of.
2 mins ago, by Rapptz
@R.MartinhoFernandes All his commits are like this
@ThePhD bullshit
user3010322
u.u Well, if everyone says so.
14:39
git can copy perfectly fine with file moves, assuming you are not doing too much in the same commit.
@StackedCrooked "narrowing conversions" for built-in types are perfectly well defined by that article
(I probably have one or two 15kLOC commits, :P; when I regenerate the data files)
IIRC up to 15% of a file can change and git can still detect a rename
@BartekBanachewicz lol, I see you too did two "Initial" commits.
@harold Yes!
14:40
@Rapptz Just to make sure.
@Rapptz ¬_¬ I work with some people who like to make an 'initial commit' for new branches
@Rapptz "First" was mine, and "Initial" from GH obviously.
user3010322
Well, anyhoops, that's how I did the native handle thing in my engine. I guess the lack of commentary means I didn't do anything too egregiously wrong with how I set it up, so I'll leave it alone so I don't have to recommit the whole world.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, but to be fair, that's stuff that you normally would argue should not be committed. But I assume the time it takes to compared to how often you would makes it more sensible.
@ThePhD we can't see the code is private
reminds me of Pawnguy7
14:41
@BartekBanachewicz the perfect crime.
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz You're not supposed to see it. I'm a sissy, remember? :D
"I won't get on teamviewer because you will hack my PC"
Pawnguy died.
@BartekBanachewicz It would cause another lockdown of this room.
@StackedCrooked hm?
14:42
@Rapptz How do you know?
Oh never mind. He was on SO 10 hours ago.
@thecoshman I think this one should be committed. The data is useless without a matching version of the algorithms and vice-versa, so I want the two tracked properly in version control.
@Pawnguy7 we miss you
In unrelated news, I should learn the solo from Stairway to Heaven.
@ThePhD I haven't looked at things yet. Reading Asio docs, right now.
@R.MartinhoFernandes generally though, you don't commit things that can be generated.
Xeo
Xeo
14:43
user image
3
Xeo
Xeo
vOv
@Xeo you tried it?
Xeo
Xeo
Yes.
14:44
@Xeo do you need to type "up" or use the arrow key?
user3010322
It works!
@Rapptz Pawnguy7 is dead, long live Pawngu8
user3010322
And it's hilarious.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked arrow
So, x-ray revealed astonishing things.
Awesome!
Xeo
Xeo
14:45
Namely: Nothing. :(
Guess it's good that my hip bones are okay, though.
user3010322
Need those for making babies~
Xeo
Xeo
Doesn't help with my hurting leg.
user3010322
They didn't find anything on your leg?
Xeo
Xeo
1 min ago, by Xeo
Namely: Nothing. :(
Doctor doesn't know why it hurts?
14:46
It's bearded smiley-itis.
Xeo
Xeo
He has suspicions, but I'm missing some symptoms
Is it inflamed?
ugh 60 euro
@Xeo lol what
why is PC software so expensive
14:47
What do you have again?
Woot, my BSG has arrived. Took them long enough from the estimated "last Thursday".
Xeo
Xeo
@Rapptz He's thinking it has something to do with my sciatic nerve, but my (lower) back doesn't hurt :(
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA
user3010322
14:48
Ahahaha, suckers.
Xeo
Xeo
BATTLESTAR ROBOTISATRAITOR
@R.MartinhoFernandes oooh... meh
user3010322
Define "kind". >.>
Xeo
Xeo
Cylon
14:49
A kind is the type of a type constructor or, less commonly, the type of a higher-order type operator.
I wish I had more people to play games with :(
less-commonly? How could you?!
@ThePhD * -> *
@thecoshman They won't knock on your door. Unless you invite them.
user3010322
@thecoshman What games do you play?
computer games are all well and good, but they are nothing compared to board games.
14:50
meh
bullshit statement
user3010322
So, Amazon refunded me for my shipping woes, because they said it might not reach me in time.
user3010322
-> Check Package Info
Xeo
Xeo
lol
user3010322
-> Being Delivered right now
user3010322
Free Moniez. :3
Xeo
Xeo
14:50
"might not reach in time" -> "overdue"
@ThePhD Refunds are not "free moniez".
@R.MartinhoFernandes people at work are not interested in such things, or not willing to say so when such things are mentioned. So it basically leaves my GF brother and his friends... which I do get on with rather well.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes It was money I wasn't expecting to get back, sooo.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman I have a lot of people at work who play boardgames
uh fuck i forgot to commit
Xeo
Xeo
14:51
and we semi-regularly meet up (most of the time for Twilight Imperium)
user3010322
That and the fact that it's clearly a glitch in the system. Things are on the truck to be delivered to me at the date I originally asked for.
@BartekBanachewicz board games with friends is by far better than computer games.
AFAIK no one at work does.
@BartekBanachewicz git add -p.
@thecoshman There are terrible board games. there.
user3010322
14:51
And yet they still refunded me.
@Xeo well aren't you the lucky sod
@ThePhD Well it hasn't arrived yet. Don't jinx it
@BartekBanachewicz and terrible computer games, what's your point?
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman You can't generalize that.
user3010322
@LightnessRacesinOrbit True, but then UPS would have to lie about it too. Which I haven't known their tracker to do just yet.
14:52
@thecoshman some computer games are better than board games thus I'd prefer to play a given pc game over a boardgame
@Xeo sure I can.
user3010322
Unless Amazon has some inside information.
@thecoshman you can't => it's dumb
@thecoshman Aren't there any places around where people gather for such things?
@BartekBanachewicz He did it anyway, proving that he could do it
14:53
I miss locals and regionals :(
@BartekBanachewicz what the hell? some forms of death are better than others.
@thecoshman what
how is that even related
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman Depends
It always depends
My favourite form of death is "averted".
3
Xeo
Xeo
stop generalizing your preferences to everyone.
14:54
I can generalise all I want.
@BartekBanachewicz He means he'll kill you if you don't let him generalise.
@thecoshman you always sound so angry
@R.MartinhoFernandes did try war game club, but general group was not... well, not exactly tolerable.
Everything can generalized, even this
14:54
@Rapptz I left the code on unauthorized PC
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's also my favourite form of crisis.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman Try meetup, IIRC robot met his people though there
^ I have doubts.
14:55
Bunch of awesome folks.
@BartekBanachewicz I would always prefer playing a board game with friends over a computer game. Yes there are terrible board games, but there are terrible computer games. But I am not talking about terrible games, because either way, I would not player those.
Playing at a local "board/card game" place is great.
@Xeo might just... though this is a very small town
You meet so many cool people and it's a lot of fun. I really do miss it :<
@Rapptz yeah, I used to do that
Xeo
Xeo
14:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't find anything close to me. :(
I don't know what to call those "board/card game" places. I just call them locals.
Xeo
Xeo
Also never had luck finding a Mahjong group
@thecoshman We prefer to play iPad version of neuroshima hex instead of paper one. now what

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