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00:00
@JerryCoffin neat.
@StackedCrooked That would work too. I'd venture to guess this is shorter than most though -- at least in C or C++; I'd imagine you can get quite a bit shorter in something like Perl.
@StackedCrooked wat. unary plus on the lambdas?...what for
@melak47 Decay
Bash would be cool too.
@CatPlusPlus yeah, but how does that help :E
00:02
@JerryCoffin coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/aed7625d672c0ba8 there, without even the loop :)
Now do it with Boost.PP
@melak47 it helps making sure that the functions are actually branching...
@DeadMG and this extension would allow you to use Wide in VS?
@sehe Hmmmm...seems pretty brute-force to me, but I guess.
@Pawnguy7 Yes. I posted some screenshots before, remember?
00:03
Oh. Yes.
@JerryCoffin Or this:
     puts("1\n2\nfizz\n4\nbuzz\nfizz\n7\n8\nfizz\nbuzz\n11\nfizz\n13\n14\nfizzbuzz\n16\n17\nfizz\n19\nbuzz\nfizz\n22\n23\nfizz\nbuzz\n26\nfizz\n28\n29\nfizzbuzz\n31\n32\nfizz\n34\nbuzz\nfizz\n37\n38\nfizz\nbuzz\n41\nfizz\n43\n44\nfizzbuzz"
    "\n46\n47\nfizz\n49\nbuzz\nfizz\n52\n53\nfizz\nbuzz\n56\nfizz\n58\n59\nfizzbuzz\n61\n62\nfizz\n64\nbuzz\nfizz\n67\n68\nfizz\nbuzz\n71\nfizz\n73\n74\nfizzbuzz\n76\n77\nfizz\n79\nbuzz\nfizz\n82\n83\nfizz\nbuzz\n86\nfizz\n88\n89\nfizzbuzz\n91\n92\nfizz\n94\nbuzz\nfizz\n97\n98\nfizz\n");
(see full text)
It was too long for a single message. Hmm.
@sehe ...unless you do a multi-line message.
Okay. Quirky chat engine
@JerryCoffin Because that makes perfect sense
Stack Exchange masters of everything
00:07
"Hello " "World!" folds into one, correct?
@StackedCrooked It even has a fork! Prefer for in {1..100}
@Pawnguy7 Yes
@sehe Right, I always forget that I can do that.
@StackedCrooked in bash (also, recent, afair)
And this still applies when on multiple lines?
00:08
@Pawnguy7 I'd argue, that's the sole purpose (outside evil macro pasting)
That was my thinking, yes.
Never done it though.
Keep it that way. Everyone loves your verbatim xml fragments that run into the 1578th column
XML?
00:11
It's an extra service to the fans. You could even give it a name... fanservice. — noko 48 mins ago
^^ aha, sooo true.
Often the fans are the ones that hate this the most.
@StackedCrooked I thought that the 'cat engine' had something to do with toast?
But I learned not to hate :)
@MartinJames cat engine and toasts? I don't see a link there.
@CatPlusPlus Almost as much as (apparently) using different implementations of LetDown here and on the main SO site...
Thanks SE team
00:14
@StackedCrooked Fasten slice of buttered toast to cat and drop the combo - which lands first?
I find that, once you turn you hate into despise, it works a lot better on your happiness. And that the less you care, the happier you are (within certain limits).
@StackedCrooked needs more linebreaks. coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/a92e880a868e4daa, but obviously, again the version without any subshells or subprocesses should win: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/1b1e932b8012d38b (I think bash has printf builtin too, so that would be equivalent)
@User17 inb4 need money
@sehe did say: (within certain limits).
should learn to read, some time I am trying to be an ambiguous little witch, just so I don't get it wrong :p
The buttered cat paradox is a common joke based on the tongue-in-cheek combination of two adages: * Cats always land on their feet. * Buttered toast always lands buttered side down. The paradox arises when one considers what would happen if one attached a piece of buttered toast (butter side up) to the back of a cat, then dropped the cat from a large height. The buttered cat paradox, submitted by artist John Frazee of Kingston, New York, won a 1993 OMNI magazine competition about paradoxes. Thought experiments Some people jokingly maintain that the experiment will produce an anti-gr...
@User17 I know. I was just making the subtext explicit. Thanks for confirming, though
00:24
Schrödinger's buttered cat
Now, we introduce the grandfather paradox.
Is the cat still buttered when he reaches the ground, or is the butter then seen to be catted?
curl en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fizz_buzz 2>/dev/null | perl -pe 's,[<>],\n,g' | grep -E '1.*?2.*?Fizz.*?4.*?Buzz'
@StackedCrooked Maybe with | tr -d , | sed 's/([0123456789]\+)//g' | xargs -n1 tacked on. But I'm not impressed.
I'll just hire myself then!
I'm a perpetual money machine.
00:30
But! Can you do it in 5 lines of code?
I hire myself.
^ That's the code.
I can compile it. :P
Okay. Now you're legally bound to pay yourself wages.
My first product shall be FizzBuzz.
Let's have a moment's silence for this robot's suicide :(
Recently I've subscribed to /r/nonononoyes. It's becoming a fav.
@sehe I wouldn't eat that.
00:37
@StackedCrooked Wait. It took me ~2 mins to realize that that is "no no no no no... yes!"
@StackedCrooked I like this comment
lol the combination of his expression and the fact that he's holding a banana
hey
D will overtake C++ in the next 5 years.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Hakase ♥
@StackedCrooked We can only hope
(It won't)
C++ is not gonna die unless another language overtakes it.
@StackedCrooked He's a beginner.
The only two potential candidates I can think of would be D and Go.
00:51
"As someone who is relatively new to programming, I find D very appealing and I get the feeling a lot of other up and coming programmers who haven't already been writing C++ for years and years are also very interested in D."
I hope C++ doesn't die to those two, they're pretty meh.
Another future scenario would be that C++ evolves into a much better language.
I feel like I'm the only one on this sub that actually likes C++ for being C++; I love the way it's designed, the way it's been implemented recently by clang++, and the fact that is so immensely powerful. These comparisons between C++ and D are really getting circle jerky and annoying. Just let each language be.
@StackedCrooked Ahahahaha
@Rapptz I don't see how Go would be a real alternative. Too much of what C++ does well, Go either can't do at all, or would be almost insanely clumsy for (e.g., virtual machines, device drivers).
"I love the way it's designed"
00:54
I'm just being exhaustive :)
But languages such as C++ Java & C# are all moving in the same direction ...
C++ has RAII at the class level. ("scope" must be used in D)
Andralex: That's a design bug of C++, which fails to distinguish between polymorphic and value types. D has RAII for all structs.
The direction is "better language", but legacy cruft is too heavy on C++
It's getting better, why can't you just leave it at that?
So what, it has legacy (Oh wow, can you believe an old language actually has legacy code?) but it's improving in areas that it's bad at, even if slowly. Things can be deprecated and idiots will always exist, but the idioms for the language will change as time goes on just like it does right now.
Deprecation with no removal is not useful for lifting the burden
00:58
Regardless. It has a positive effect.
The grammar is too complex, compilation model is fundamentally broken, there's too much C, there's too much UB
New programmers won't be using std::auto_ptr or std::strstream
These are things that won't change, unless the language is redesigned
C++ will need to cut ties with the past at some point in the future.
Even modules (ahaha yeah right) won't get rid of headers and includes, because there's simply too much of this shit around
00:59
Disregarding the grammar, because it's irrelevant to people who actually write code with the language, it's attempting to fix the compilation model at least a little.
And compilers will only grow more complex
No, it's not irrelevant
@CatPlusPlus Again, it'll have a positive effect in the end. Why can't you take it as it is?
Most vexing parse is not irrelevant
How many times has this even affected you?
Disambiguators are not irrelevant
01:00
"Oh, man, I've got to share this with my other sedentary Internet friends."
You learn about it once and you're done with it.
@StackedCrooked ^ your fault
I have never even thought of MVP as an issue when I'm writing code
It's something you have to actively avoid, because compiler won't help you if you manage to do it by accident
@Rapptz How many times has it affected you?
01:01
@sehe Absolutely 0 times.
It's like saying PHP is fine, because you can learn all of its quirks :cripes:
@Rapptz Sure. Because you actively avoid it, then. Which means there's always the burden. The rest of C++ is the same, so I can see how you wouldn't notice
1 min ago, by Rapptz
I have never even thought of MVP as an issue when I'm writing code
It happens
I don't "actively" avoid it, it isn't even in the back of my mind.
01:02
It should never happen to anyone
This is a language problem
Sure, you can learn about it and handwave it away and move on
But it's not one issue, it's a thousand
MVP is more like a bump in the road which you've learned to avoid.
Every quirk, every UB, it all needs to be learned and avoided
And the syntax is really fucking complex
There aren't many UB situations that don't make sense to me.
Like signed overflow?
Yeah that one is one of the dumb ones.
Usually the dumb ones involve integers.
01:04
It all adds up
You can handwave everything, but it still ends up being an overcomplicated clusterfuck
Ell
Ell
Thanks scott
But other ones make sense at least like out of bounds in an array or modifying a string literal.
And there are also problems with complexity that affects you indirectly
By affecting the quality of tools
Compilation times is more relevant. Also the complexity makes it hard to write tools for refactoring, static analysis, etc...
But it still hampers productivity and leads to bad code
Ell
Ell
01:06
What is wrong with php if you know the quirks? O.o
Use what you have available and what you know
@Rapptz you must be extremely lucky
Goddammit
@sehe What? You learn it once and move on.
Ell
Ell
And keep programmers in work xD
"Hey what's wrong with this plane that will drop right out of the sky if you stand in the corner over there"
01:07
I don't go "Fuck, should I put parentheses here? Oh man, I shouldn't because of MVP."
"Just learn to not stand there"
"What's the problem"
Ell
Ell
I have actually been doing the mvp think consciously recently
@StackedCrooked nobody convinces me gymnastics is healthy :)
Ell
Ell
and yeah maybe it is a bad plane after all
01:08
Hands up who can recite C++ overload resolution rules
Xeo
Xeo
o/
@Rapptz Keep proving it :) Someday you will deem you have been convincing enough. I believed you the first time.
Xeo
Xeo
mostly, anyways
Ell
Ell
But I'm too naive to know all the pitfalls of c++, it seems like a nice language to me
01:08
I rest my case
@sehe Whatever.
Ell
Ell
I enjoy it a lot
Xeo
Xeo
But that's because I studied the shit out of them
Did you come to a resolution?
Xeo
Xeo
Yeah: overloading is complicated :(
01:10
So, no, the situation will not improve, because you cannot trust people with knowing a language that's almost impossible to fully understand
I have no idea how conversion operators and implicit constructors interact with this.
Xeo
Xeo
C++ would need some major changes that are just not gonna happen
Ell
Ell
I think implicit conversions should be ordered somehow based on how much information they lose
Then the least lossy overload can akways be chosen
Problem with implicit conversions is not information loss
Ell
Ell
It isn't?
01:11
C++ doesn't have lossy implicit conversions, at least built in
Bjarne's intention seems to be to define a subset of C++.
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus int i = 3.14; ?
@Xeo That compiles?
Xeo
Xeo
yes
Xeo
Xeo
01:11
truncates
Okay then built-in implicit conversions are retarded after all
Xeo
Xeo
all the built-in conversion stuff is fucked up
thanks C
@StackedCrooked Everyone is defining subsets of languages
It's all JAVASCRIPT GOOD PARTS, C++ GOOD PARTS
Xeo
Xeo
and don't get started on the Usual Arithmetic Conversions
Ell
Ell
What is the problem with implicit if not information loss?
01:13
Nobody seems to understand that bad parts affect you even if you concentrate on good ones
But in case of C++ removing the bad parts would make the compilers and tools better and faster.
Xeo
Xeo
2 mins ago, by Xeo
C++ would need some major changes that are just not gonna happen
And that fundamental bad parts are impossible to remove without major redesign
@StackedCrooked But that would mean losing backwards compatibility, and as far as I can see from his talks, Bjarne considers that a great "feature"
Xeo
Xeo
and that's exactly why the fundamental changes it'd need are not gonna happen
01:14
It's not a feature, it's lowest effort option
Xeo
Xeo
a) it would break every codebase out there b) if it was split off from current C++, likely nobody would use it.
It's easier to become the next big language if it can be used by former C++ developers with minimal learning curve.
@CatPlusPlus you say that like it is a ludicrous idea. C++ is not bad due to lack of good features, it is bad to a flood of crap ones. I see no harm in just removing those and saying "hey, C++14, basically just C++11 but with crap removed".
(Even though maintaining compatibility can be really hard task, esp in something as complex as C++)
so yeah, things are not likely going to change in a dramatic way
Xeo
Xeo
01:14
It's a catch-22.
@thecoshman The problem is, that wouldn't be C++ anymore
Well, it could be C++ 2.0 or whatever
@CatPlusPlus probably not :P
oh, because it has to have the 'point oh' part :P
But it needs to be backwards-incompatible redesign to get rid of all the shit
Ell
Ell
then you'd get people claiming they are writing c++ like they claim with c/c++ :P
Nothing will ever change, everything's terrible
01:16
yes, but it doesn't have to be phrased like C++2 is just there to break C++
C# has overtaken many of the domains where C++ used to rule. And C# is not backwards compatible with C++, but it looks familiar.
People put too much emphasis on tools, and not enough on being actually good at programming
"MY PRECIOUS C++ IS BEING ASSUALTED GOTTA DEFEND IT HURR DURR"
Ell
Ell
I'm interested in what this new c++ could look like according to a poll of all the lounge regulars
also, people always say that you can't break 'features' in C++ because of old code bases, are these old code basis really getting compile with the most recent tools for C++?
I'm just sick of the circlejerking
Couldn't care less otherwise.
01:17
2 days ago, by Cat Plus Plus
We'll be swimming in unreliable shit software written by incompetent idiots for the rest of eternity
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman You wouldn't just break a few "features" - you'd break the fundamentals of the language as they currently are.
I hate this place when it becomes Lounge<Circlejerk>
Xeo
Xeo
Declarator syntax for one.
@Ell to be honest, Wide might actually be a good candidate
The funny thing is that the bad programmers are also complaining about the bad code of others.
01:17
Where's circlejerk :/
You guys right now.
how is it circlejerking?
are we circling?
Xeo
Xeo
rather, are we jerking?
I am no way complimenting Cat
01:18
Why, because we actually know a thing or two about language design, and can see how C++ is fundamentally shitty? goddammit
Ell
Ell
I don't know what the metaphorical sence of circle jerk means
No. Because it's
Ell
Ell
ugh I can't sleep this early
"DOESN'T C++ SUCK GUYS" and everyone is concurring
Ell
Ell
Spell. Gah! And edit button is too difficult
01:19
What
just agreeing does not mean circlejerking ¬_¬
I believe we actually said pretty clearly why we think that
:psyduck:
Ell
Ell
Wait, you guys aren't jerking?
But I guess criticising C++ is circlejerking regardless of arguments!
fuck programmers
Ell
Ell
I think some parts of c++ are very attractive
01:20
we can always complain about programming in general and not just one language
@CatPlusPlus No, it isn't "criticising C++ is circlejerking regardless of arguments". It's when everyone is just in uniform agreement towards the topic at hand to the point where it's self-congratulatory.
fuck me setting up projects is more effort than I can ever muster
@Rapptz No it's not
Yes it is.
@Ell attracted to big eh?
01:21
Oh for fuck'ssake
Ell
Ell
Haha
@Rapptz what? does some one have to disagree, just because?
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
Ell
Ell
Fwiw I disagree that its shit :L
EVERYONE IS DRIVING AGAINST THE FLOW I DONT KNOW WHAT THEYRE DOING
01:21
@thecoshman Nah.
so what's your beef?
@Ell I think it's okay. Could be better.
@CatPlusPlus You should order a pizza.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked As if they're still open at this point in time :<
@thecoshman Nothing. Forget it.
01:22
Dammit.
This is infuriating handwaving the issue away
But I have two pizza's in my freezer.
Xeo
Xeo
it's 2:30am
apropos... it's fucking 2:30am, I should sleep.
fuck programmers
shit, now I feel like pizza
01:23
goddammit
Night shops are open until 3 AM here. And I live close to the night-life area where shops are open all night.
I don't understand how you go with "fuck programmers" in this discussion
Xeo
Xeo
@AndyProwl You feel like pizza?
Do you live in constant fear of being eaten?
@Rapptz your expectation of reasonable argumentation is the source of your distress
any way, I'm off
night fuckers
01:24
let go and join the circle jerk. life becomes much easier
Yes, nobody provided any reasonable argumentation
Fuck this retarded shit
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked I'll just let you know that that sounds very wrong.
@StackedCrooked ..?
No one's arguments were reasonable, not even my own.
I'm just projecting my own thoughts.
Cool, a new ep of Outbreak Company is available.
Ooh, Strike the Blood as well!
01:26
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Stupid people who can't argue [c++] [c++11] [c++1y] [no-gotchas] [no-questions] [no-tricks]
@Xeo Guess I should have made the "eating" explicit
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked btw, you should read the TWGOK manga
so good
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: No passive aggressiveness. [c++] [c++11] [c++1y] [no-gotchas] [no-questions] [no-tricks]
@Xeo ...but I've already seen the anime.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked so?
The manga goes much farther than the anime
01:27
are you guys going to argue by editing the chat topic?
I'm hungry.
No, I'm not interested in discussing anything seriously ever again
@AndyProwl I only edited it once because passive aggressiveness in the topic is dumb.
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus and you'll do it anyways
@CatPlusPlus "seriously"? This is how you argue "seriously"?
01:28
@Rapptz Hey, who's being passive aggressive now?
That's not passive aggressive.
Oh for fuck's sake, have you even read ANYTHING
ANYTHING
Yes.
that's been said in past hour
Yes, I have.
Xeo
Xeo
01:29
I think I'll just leave at this point. Good night.
And this is "circlejeck" and "no reasonable argumentation"
@Xeo 'night
Night.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Also, the anime left out some parts before the goddess arc
I stopped discussing the topic when I realised that nothing I would say would ever convince someone who is stubborn of changing his outlook to a positive manner that a change in a language would be a good thing.
It makes no sense to keep going if you didn't think in the main point I was making, so why bother?
01:32
yeah fuck this shit I don't care w/e
How are you even contributing to this discussion? Get out!
This is no place for dogs.
I need to retrain to something else and stop being a programmer forevre
Dammit, that makes me feel bad even if it was a joke.
@CatPlusPlus The other jobs are worse.
Nothing is possibly worse than this
Try being a high-school teacher for example.
01:35
@StackedCrooked really? I think C# has overtaken the domains where Java, VisualBasic ... used to rule. It has popularized client-server architecture for smaller applications.
Go into medicine. It's fun.
and psychedelic
@StackedCrooked but you could be in a girls high school and surrounded by hot 16/17 year olds :x
Yeah. Surrounded by potential dramas and lawsuits.
@Ell sorry, missed the event
01:37
They say patience is a virtue ... just have to wait until they turn 18
well. I'll have to disagree there.
Just to avoid accidentally sharing opinions with the majority. Because, that would be perverted
@thecoshman Ah, you made that point already.
@User17 Hey, I hadn't considered that.
@Rapptz It's pretty bad. But if you know what you're doing - it's ok. The problem is: don't deny that it's bad.
This has the potential to trip you up badly IRL
..?
You make it seem like I think the language is perfect.
@Xeo I don't think that's what pizzas feel like
@Rapptz Where? Hint: you keep fencing in all directions. Maybe I'm not trying to oppose. Read again?
01:41
"The problem is: don't deny that it's bad."
@Xeo The anime subreddit periodically has discussion threads about the current season like this one. I like it.
I got a few good recommendations.
Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about I guess.
I found some good anime there.
@StackedCrooked Is there a thread about when the HxH manga will start again? :S
@Borgleader Not really, apart from this fake news message a few weeks ago.
01:43
@Rapptz Didn't you - passionately - try to argue that MVP is not an issue? That and the many many other warts make C++ a minefield. Just see this for a taste: blog.regehr.org/archives/1054
If you don't pay attention at all times, you shouldn't be considering C++. That's my professional POV.
I'm also subscribed to the HxH subreddit. It's not so good imo.
Yes, MVP is a very tiny issue.
I already said integer UB is dumb.
Sorry for repeating something you already said.
@sehe It never caused problems for me. A puzzling compiler error on a few occassions and that's it.
Am I not professional now?
:)
No, you have to experience MVP once a week for 2 months to get your Professional C++ Developer badge in the mail. (I'm not making fun of sehe, to make it clear)
01:47
@Borgleader Latest episode was damn good again!
@StackedCrooked Yeah I have to catch up, been a pretty busy semester
@Rapptz that parenthesized bit blurred it. Why mention me?
I didn't want you to think I was making fun of you for saying "That's my professional POV"
@Borgleader You need to catch up? How enviable!
Hm, to buy Movie Studio, or try to find something cheaper/free
01:49
@Rapptz You are too good for this room.
What's MVP?
Most Vexing Parse.
Most Valued Professional
obviously
either one...
seems about the same to me ;-)
01:50
Mediocre Volleyball Player
Microsoft vs the Planet?
My Vlittle Pony.
I don't program at work at all, no.
lol

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