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21:00
Technically, it is not the MVP but in practice, almost everybody calls it the MVP, anyway, and nobody cares except language lawyers and pedants with way too much time on their hands.
@sehe If that hurdle could be passed, I'd have to agree it's probably worthwhile.
@FredOverflow Fair enough... unfortunately, this is a language-lawyer question.
@FredOverflow No one cares because it's not a useful distinction (maybe except if you are writing a parser.)
I also stopped caring that the STL is not the same as the standard library. It's simply not important enough to warrant a discussion.
@H2CO3 Then it is not he MVP. Period.
@H2CO3 A language lawyer would never use such informal terms!
@FredOverflow Nothing is the MVP. There's no such thing from language lawyer POV.
Xeo
Xeo
21:01
T v(); is simply a function declaration from the standard's POV
@Xeo yeah, that's what they said. I just want to dig up that discussion to prove my point in case anyone disagrees.
@R.MartinhoFernandes To a true language lawyer, there's nothing vexing or surprising about any of them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes :D
@JerryCoffin Exactly.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What are you, a language lawyer lawyer?
21:02
@FredOverflow A metasyntactic grammar nazi.
@FredOverflow Aw man, why did you have to ruin my day :(
(no offsense intended.)
@H2CO3 Careful there. I live in Germany now.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ooops. Is that the SS knocking on my door then? o.O
I smell C zealots nearby
21:04
@BartekBanachewicz o/
our kingdom was busy at war with Javascriptland
@BartekBanachewicz If they come out in the open, we'll send their coordinates to the emacs zealots, who'll take them out with their heavy artillery.
@BartekBanachewicz stop the C++ supply to their engines, and they'll fall.
@JerryCoffin sir yes sir
lol
21:06
@H2CO3 :3
I can't, I want to finish my Typescript game
@BartekBanachewicz Aw. Surely you haven't found enough Rubies to pay someone to do that for you?
@H2CO3 it's actually quite pleasant thus far
@BartekBanachewicz Sometimes I wish I'd been in the Army so I could use that line about "Don't call me sir; I work for a living."
> The difference between good at math and bad at math is hard work. It’s trying. It’s trying hard. It’s trying harder than you’ve ever tried before. That’s it.
Does anyone know if I need to opt-in to G+ to opt-out of Google's "put your name on ads" nonsense?
21:09
Meh, I just silently accept I'm bad at math
I'm good enough for my needs and some more so...
Xeo
Xeo
Aw, no plans to have GCC/Clang as the VC++ backend
When I follow the links to the opt-out page, I am greeted with the "join G+" bullshit.
@BartekBanachewicz According to niemanlab.org/2013/11/… you are lying to yourself
@Code-Guru interesting idea, but somewhat hyperbolic.
21:10
very good article
@Code-Guru why would I be lying to myself?
@H2CO3 Perhaps. Read the article ;-)
FTR I was reading about group theory today, refreshing my knowledge
@Code-Guru KK :)
I'm bad at math, but my badness would still be above huge most of society so..
21:11
@BartekBanachewicz sure. group theory is... khm... whatever. I must admit that most people don't know jack about math. at all. and that's very unfortunate.
@BartekBanachewicz then you aren't "bad at math" if you can read group theory...at least not in the same sense as the journalist who wrote that article and sweated bullets trying to pass a calculus class.
@Code-Guru (exactly...) --- And they are even 1. proud of that, and they 2. assert that math is useless.
most people that claim to be bad at math are terrified of algebra
we had a teacher at high school that thought it would be more fun to teach us group theory and topology than calculus
(My usual reaction is: "if there wasn't math, then you couldn't have typed this comment.")
21:12
@H2CO3 unfortunately that is the attitude of too many people
@BartekBanachewicz o.O surely (s)he was wrong
@Code-Guru yup.
@H2CO3 he was a topologist, so no wonder he was a bit biased.
maybe I didn't get excellent grades on my finals, but I got the chance to taste what a rather high-level math tastes like
@BartekBanachewicz "biased" as in statistics? :P (yes, I get it.)
statistics at uni was pretty fun
@BartekBanachewicz topology is certainly interesting. If either that or group theory is done right and made approachable by high school students, I think the teacher could change the students' perceptions that math is just about numbers.
21:14
I thought I will kill myself studying for the exam, and it turned out I passed rather easily
@BartekBanachewicz (y) that's awesome
and discrete mathematics was pure fun
@Xeo Xeo wants to know?
Xeo
Xeo
:D
Btw, @Jerry, bought your sis's book. Gonna start on it this weekend.
21:14
@R.MartinhoFernandes waat
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh cool. Hope you find it good.
Never say "sis's" again
@Code-Guru well we were an algorithmic class anyway
@BartekBanachewicz seriously? stats was one of my least favorite subjects. Looking back, I think the biggest reason is that it quickly went from stuff I already knew and could do in my sleep (combinatorics) to more complicated stuff that I thought I understood during the lecture, but didn't really understand.
@BartekBanachewicz Personally, I prefer calculus, but I'll be having a hard time learning all the theorems and proofs. I prefer doing actual work (such as computing derivatives etc.)
21:15
@CatPlusPlus hehe
Pretty soon I am going to strategically use less sources.
@Code-Guru we had a cool dude that told us his stories about his applied statistics and the jobs he actually got
@BartekBanachewicz this amazon.com/…
like counting people at walmarts
@H2CO3 Wait, what, you like computing derivatives?
21:16
@R.MartinhoFernandes wow
@CatPlusPlus lol
The most mechanical and boring thing since arithmetic?
@H2CO3 I personally enjoy computing derivatives and integrals. My uni had an Integral Bee on Pi Day every year...or as close to it as Spring Break allowed.
@R.MartinhoFernandes will the Criterion++ be your next project then? ;)
@CatPlusPlus not extreme ones, though.
21:16
@BartekBanachewicz People of WalMart
@Xeo hah you were the last question in, nice
@Code-Guru wow, awesome
@BartekBanachewicz yah, a good teacher certainly helps
Xeo
Xeo
Yeah, I kinda thought it was 1h long
Didn't see it was so close to the end, or I prolly wouldn't have submitted it
@CatPlusPlus computing integrals, OTOH...
21:17
@Xeo Why not it was a good question.
@BartekBanachewicz My buddy (who I incedentally taught calc to and helped through his undergrad math degree) is now a statistician for some think tank in Seattle
@BartekBanachewicz The next bout of free time is for ogonek. Not dedicating time to another project before I get that to a 1.0.
@BartekBanachewicz Is just as boring
@BartekBanachewicz Naw, I like integrating too.
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure hope you do.
21:17
needless to say, I'm a bit jealous...particularly of his salary.
don't say anything about salaries.
just don't.
lol
of course, I'm happy for him, too
If no one picked it up by then, I might start on it, though.
@CatPlusPlus after a certain point (and especially if you have to do very basic, uninteresting ones, and dozens of them.)
@R.MartinhoFernandes squee
21:18
There are no interesting derivatives
I'd like to benchmark my QuadTree properly
How is this interesting in any way
I am still puzzled as to why using OpenMP slowed the whole thing down
@H2CO3 To me calc always seemed like a cheat. A clever one, that was especially useful before computers made it easy to do things like "sum results for f(x) for all integer x from 0 to 10 trillion", but a cheat nonetheless. It takes infinite divisibility for granted, but almost nothing is really infinitely divisible.
I like the recursive nature of derivatives. Yah, they aren't very interesting to do, but I do enjoy teaching how to do them.
21:19
@CatPlusPlus you know, I have a twisted mind that finds derivatives interesting and C useful... :P
Integrals/derivatives are no more interesting than a hammer or some other tool you use when you need it ;0
btw, @H2CO3, have you looked at Terra language, perchance?
@JerryCoffin I love cheating! :D I'd rather integrate v(t) dt to get the distance than learn by heart all the possible fomulae for calculating it... (yay, uni >>> highschool)
@BartekBanachewicz Not yet, but will do that in a few moments
@BartekBanachewicz (I guess that's some sort of an esoteric language with extreme math notation... let's see!)
@H2CO3 Like I said--a clever cheat, but almost never really right.
@H2CO3 You never replied to me and I'm still cross with you!
This is the most British thing I've said all month
21:21
@JerryCoffin Blehh. But they've proven that it's right!
@H2CO3 not really. But I'll wait until you look at it.
@H2CO3 Understanding that a = dv/dt helps me memorize the formula for, say, a system with constant velocity.
@H2CO3 1/2 * a * t^2
there.
@CatPlusPlus :D well I accepted your opinion and you cleaned up my misunderstanding. I know you won't be able to convince me and I won't be able to convince you either, so discussing that further wouldn't be really constructive. Or am I wrong?
Abstract theory is interesting, because you don't need pen&paper for that!
Xeo
Xeo
21:23
@Borgleader Too bad the middle guy was so hard to understand.
yeah...
@BartekBanachewicz Wow. Just wow. That's a nice attempt.
@H2CO3 purrrrrformance
On another topic, tutoring cute college girls sure makes up for some of my other students...the one in DiffEq who can't do basic derivatives and integrals, for example
Xeo
Xeo
@H2CO3 highschool >>> uni; where highscrool = (+knowledge); uni = (+moarKnowledge)
(You don't need to understand this)
21:25
@Xeo oh you
More like more exams
@BartekBanachewicz :D statically typed was, once again, faster than "dynamically JIT"-ed.
And more bullshit
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz I can't help myself when I see >>> :(
@Xeo what does the one at the top do, actually?
Xeo
Xeo
21:26
(>>>) = flip (.) for (->)
@CatPlusPlus more exams, yeah. And surely a lot of BS. I was taught that 1. references are pointers, 2. you can't query the size of a raw array, 3. that vector is the part of STL.
Xeo
Xeo
(I love being cryptic)
It's flip (.) for any category type :v
@H2CO3 their JITted Orion implementation was faster than static C one, though
@H2CO3 Do you think it is too much to expect a student in Differential Equations to (nearly) immediately give the derivative of At (where A is a constant)?
21:27
@Xeo isn't "for ->" somewhat redundant?
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Right, I guess. (>>>) actually uses Cat's (.) and not Prelude's (.), I guess
or am I misunderstanding it?
@Code-Guru :o no!! I never said that!
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Arrows are not only functions.
@Xeo The length by itself indicates how they view priorities. The fact that they had no real answer to a lot of what came up reinforces that (e.g., "yes, desktop development is really important. So important that all we can offer you is MFC (with, apparently, no updates coming for it either)".
21:27
@H2CO3 I know. I'm asking. I'm a math tutor and one of my students is in DiffEq, but I wonder how he even passed calc1 and 2.
also isn't (.) expressed differently in, say, applicatives anyway?
@Code-Guru Ah, OK. No, it isn't. One must be able to tell the d/dx of any reasonably simple function.
@H2CO3 It's like someone interviewing for a C++ programmer position and not knowing how to write a for loop.
@JerryCoffin MFC is still kicking?
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz huh?
21:28
(Heck, I even know d/dx arctg(x) by heart...
@Code-Guru Yup...
@R.MartinhoFernandes Only to the extent that they still ship it, and have no viable replacement to offer.
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Actually, I guess I was misunderstanding where >>> is actually defined until just now
@Xeo nevermind, I thought about Function as a Functor, I think.
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Well, most answers were really "no infos yet, but really soon!"
@H2CO3 I'm definitely more lenient about d/dx of any trig function, especially inverse ones. I don't think I know them exactly by heart. The best I can do is recognize that one of those is needed.
Ell
Ell
21:30
This on liquid flouride thorium reactors is very interesting: youtube.com/watch?v=uK367T7h6ZY
@Code-Guru I think I only know it because I'm yet in uni. I bet I'll forget those when I get out of the school desk.
Ell
Ell
@Code-Guru is the answer A? o.o
Am I the only one that strives to learn math by actively not memorising as many formulae as possible?
@Ell yes, it is (provided that you derivate with respect to t)
@H2CO3 After thinking a bit, I can remember d/dx(arctan x) = 1/(1+x^2)...but don't ask me to do any other inverse trig funcs.
21:31
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, me too
@Ell You get an A!
@Code-Guru That's exact. And no, I'm not asking anything :D
@Xeo There was one reasonably interesting point: it sounds like they have been/are doing a fairly serious rewrite of their compiler internals.
@H2CO3 with the +C on the end, of course ;-)
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin That's what my question was about - they mentioned at GN2013 that their compiler had no proper AST before.
21:32
thank god for blonde coeds
@Xeo Yes, I noticed that.
It still pisses me off that I don't understand what's special about things like b^2 - 4ac.
@Code-Guru This is Lounge<C++>. C was implicitly default-constructed to 0.
or coeds in general
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, my students needed that exact formula today :)
21:33
@H2CO3 thanks for the laugh!
Ell
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes is that the discriminant?
@Code-Guru :D (um.. thinking about that and why do we need that C exactly? we didn't integrate, or did we?)
*--and
@R.MartinhoFernandes easy way to get the number of roots
@H2CO3 oh wait...that was a derivative, no C needed
Ell
Ell
what barket said
21:34
my bad...
@Code-Guru NW :)
@BartekBanachewicz and the kinds of roots
@BartekBanachewicz Congratulations on missing the point.
I know what's it's useful for. I don't understand why it's magical.
@R.MartinhoFernandes woah, you didn't express it really clearly TBH
@Xeo Maybe I just didn't think things through then, but it didn't occur to me that they were adding it now (though I'll admit, I can't quite imagine how they wrote it without an AST in the first place, or how add one into the middle of an existing compiler).
Ell
Ell
21:35
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm something about completing the square. I'm curious now...
@R.MartinhoFernandes :F because?
sit down and make a proof yourself
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Yeah, I couldn't either.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It wouldn't be magical if you understood, now would it?
i don't get the point.
Xeo
Xeo
21:36
They mentioned that they actually were using ASTs, but were making them up on the spot and destroying them again or something.
I really wish the middle guy was easier to understand
@R.MartinhoFernandes Group Theory might be able to give you a deeper meaning to the discriminant.
0 is special. 1 is special. A square root is the length of the side of a square of some area. WTF is b^2 - 4ac.
@Ell Oh thanks.
@R.MartinhoFernandes is your problem that it's not entirely obvious at first glance why that value is b ^ 2 - 4ac? Well, that annoys me too.
@Ell yah, that's where the quadratic formula comes from
21:38
@Xeo That sounds almost harder to believe. I'm almost tempted to apply for a job there just to get some insight into what's going on (that and the fact that they strike me as being badly in need of competent help).
@R.MartinhoFernandes don't worry, even if you'll ever find an intuitive explanation why this formula in particular, there are many others with much more complicated reasoning behind them ;0
@Xeo You mean MSVC is made mostly of duct tape?
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Y'know, I never looked at square-roots that way.
How surprising!
@H2CO3 That's all fairly simple derivation (though I'll admit it's been so long since I did it that it'd take me quite a while to even find the right starting point for it now).
Xeo
Xeo
21:39
Duct-tape can fix everything! Duct-tape for president!
5
@Xeo Could hardly be worse than some of the recent ones we've had here in the US...
I have no mood for coding today :/
dunno why dammit.
Xeo
Xeo
Learn Arrows
I've read the damn paper it doesn't make any sense
user1804599
hi.
21:43
@Xeo I approach most things in mathematics in that spirit, because for a large part of my school years, I learned most things in mathematics in that spirit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmmm.
so if anyone's wondering:

ax^2 + bx + c = 0`; we divide by `a` and rearrange to obtain `x^2 + (b/a)x = -c/a`; to complete the square we do `(x + b/2a) ^ 2 - (b/2a)^2 = - c/a` so `(x + b/2a) ^ 2 = -c/a + b^2 / 4a^2`. So `x + b / 2a = +/- sqrt(b^2 / 4a^2 - 4ac/4a^2)`, in other words `x = -b/2a +/- sqrt(b^2 - 4ac) / sqrt(a^2)`; rearrange to get `x = (-b +/- sqrt(b^2 - 4ac)) / 2a`
@JerryCoffin Huh, it took me a few seconds. @BartekBanachewicz I know, that's why I just did it :)
You're really bored, aren't you
2
> )
> comonad
oh god.
21:45
@H2CO3 Meh, too long.
a common ad
@CatPlusPlus I just wanted to help...
@CatPlusPlus C programmer, of course he's bored ;)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sorry.
Multiply by 4a, rearrange a bit, add b^2.
21:45
@H2CO3 the same for 3rd order please ;0
@Borgleader I don't get that :/
None of that explains why b^2 - 4ac is special.
@BartoszKP and you pay how much? :P
@H2CO3 how much did Robot pay you?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Take it the other way: it isn't special.
21:46
@H2CO3 It is.
@BartoszKP I just received a 200$ donation to my PayPal.
@H2CO3 I guess you haven't been around here long enough to get an idea of my real age. At a guess, the math class where I derived it probably took place before you were born.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz It makes very much sense
@BartekBanachewicz It's because you're getting too old and you're degrading
Xeo
Xeo
21:46
What do you currently think Arrows are?
@H2CO3 I can promise I'll try to arrange it with CatPlusPlus to pay you.
^ AMD Mantle
@Xeo I've just learned that they represent computations
@JerryCoffin No no, I didn't think you were in high school or whatever!
@BartoszKP (y)
21:47
@Borgleader no one is going to use it anyway
@H2CO3 Because it contains all the information about the nature of the roots of the polynomial.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz And what are monads?
It is undeniably special (it even has a name and a greek letter dedicated to it, ffs).
Burritos
2
@BartekBanachewicz You can see into the future?
21:47
@Xeo they represent value context
@Borgleader I can make assesments based on the past.
Monads represent computations
@BartekBanachewicz And be safely wrong
Xeo
Xeo
I wanted to hear "a computation" now :(
Arrows are just more general
@R.MartinhoFernandes well... and you found that formula by doing stuff related to the roots of the polynomial. So, isn't that intuitive?
21:48
> Everything starts to do harm when they are pursued to the extreme. When going to the extremes, both OOP and FP try to fit the world into their peculiar models, but the world works in a way completely independent of what we think. It is wrong to think of everything as a nail when you have a hammer. Only by observing the reality can we get out of the religions that are limiting us.
@BartekBanachewicz Right and people have predicted that we wouldnt need more than a few killobytes of memory and a bunch of other things that turned out to be plain wrong
@Code-Guru Amen.
@Borgleader no one wants to write code that ties them to one hardware vendor
Also it won't be faster than OpenGL
also no one makes 100k drawcalls per frame so that's a useless number
@BartekBanachewicz They might not want to but if it means your game will look better than the competitor's they will
@Borgleader except it will not
tell me more how PS3/4 games look better than PC games.
21:50
@R.MartinhoFernandes the problem lies within the fact, that this is composed of many trivial and intuitive special quantities. Definition of 2 (2nd order polynomial) lies underneath it, definitions of multiplication and definition of what a root is ( (x - x1)(x - x2) == 0), and many others. It is not special - it is just a bit hard to comprehend.
@Xeo how
for me it's still a value :/
What's IO Int?
Xeo
Xeo
Then tell me, how is the State monad a value?
@BartekBanachewicz Oh wow... just wow... you managed to turn this into a PC vs Consoles thing. I remember why I don't argue with you.
@CatPlusPlus a way to obtain Int
Xeo
Xeo
21:52
@BartekBanachewicz a way -> a computation
@Xeo well it's a value and some other value?
@Xeo in IO it's actually clear
@CatPlusPlus An Int wrapped in a IO monad
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz State is actually a pipeline of state-transformation functions (the name sucks, IMO)
@Borgleader Yay. Now that DirectX and (especially) OpenGL have been completely re-vamped to minimize the number of calls necessary, we're doing to revamp the underlying framework to render all that wasted effort. (yes, I know: not really).
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus a data type
21:52
@H2CO3 It's... not intuitive? At this point it's just a peculiarity that we discovered. Getting insight into its nature allows you to make other uses of it.
@Borgleader wait what? Consoles have been using low-level API since ever, so I thought you'll get the analogy. I'm not fighting one over the other, I was focusing on the rendering methods used. Duh.
It's an I/O computation that returns an Int
@CatPlusPlus What is "a computation" exactly?
@Code-Guru But there is no Int to wrap yet.
21:53
@FredOverflow something that can get you a value
@Code-Guru not really
Also, a computation can be a value. Think of first-class functions.
@FredOverflow I consider that to be a primitive term
@H2CO3 that's ultimately irrelevant
@BartekBanachewicz Not necessarily.
@R.MartinhoFernandes or it might not get it
21:54
> : the act or process of computing or calculating something
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Monad m => ... m ()
If you want to go by dictionary
what about IO ()?
@BartekBanachewicz So what is it then? Something that... can?
@BartekBanachewicz They're specifically claiming that it's not tied to their hardware, and nVidia already has at least some level of involvement.
21:54
It's an I/O computation that doesn't return any value
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus doesn’t square x = x * x also calculate something?
user1804599
Oh wait, laziness.
@JerryCoffin some level of involvement being what exactly?
@rightfold Monads are a generalisation
@BartekBanachewicz Why? Someone suggested that "monads are values". Others suggest that "monads are computation". My $0.02 was that those things don't necessarily contradict.
user1804599
21:55
Oh right.
@rightfold You can say Haskell has a free Identity monad as a first class citizen.
@BartekBanachewicz I haven't seen enough details to say for sure.
user1804599
I call those things “actions” because that’s the first term describing them presented to me.
@H2CO3 but it was about the difference between Monads and Arrows. And how the fact that Monad is a computation is unclear to me in some instances.
@H2CO3 But the former is a bit reminiscent of "rectangles are squares".
21:57
@BartekBanachewicz Ah OK. Then I was late by some levels of discussion... :/
@H2CO3 Values can be seen as trivial computations
dafuq. BF4 crashes, and starts VS to debug
@JerryCoffin I'm not saying it will be worth it, I'm also not saying it will not be worth it. But I am really curious to see what comes of it. AFAIK BF4 is already using Mantle, haven't come across any performance numbers on their part though.
@R.MartinhoFernandes possibly.
@CatPlusPlus Good point. Just like literals are expressions. Sure.
Xeo
Xeo
21:58
Oct 23 at 19:49, by Xeo
> bump = state $ (,) <$> head <*> tail
> peek = state $ (,) <$> head <*> id
> f = (,) <$> bump <*> peek
> runState f [1,2,3]
((1,2),[2,3])
Oh, no way to view the video yet :(
Xeo
Xeo
Or, to be clearer, without Applicative
State is a stateful computation
Yeah, State doesn't wrap any actual state or any such thing. It just builds state transformations.

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