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19:00
but hey, Elm has lift function
Not sure what it does yet, just as foldp
user1804599
$ is useless when you have parentheses, no?
user1804599
. is useless when you have lambdas, no?
@rightfold ($)
@rightfold (.)
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz isJust
Thing is, docs have isJust but don't have lift in Maybe section
user1804599
19:02
lift is more generic.
user1804599
It supports more than just Maybe.
also there's no word "Haskell" used
which is rather strange
Xeo
Xeo
> fromJust Nothing = error "Maybe.fromJust: Nothing" -- yuck
hahaha, the comment
yeah
also apparently Haskell is required for running Elm
uh, why wouldn't he simply make his own types for Haskell
> Haskell tends to use infix operators very aggressively, often in ways that hamper readability. In Elm, you should never design an API with specific infix operators in mind.
19:07
Hi.
@Rapptz Hello
@Jefffrey I don't get how you made classes without invariants.
I sometimes feel like proper sentence structure is ruining my persuasion.
Maybe I should be writing a speech instead.
@Rapptz I think I just grouped data and functions that acted on that data together, without worrying much about invariants
You didn't care what data was passed in?
19:12
well, marginally I think
I have mixed feelings about that elm thingy
Can anybody enlighten me what classes have to do with invariants?
Classes maintain invariants
So. We have come to this.
@R.MartinhoFernandes dramatic effect huh?
19:13
@StackedCrooked coliru's not letting me do threads :c
I just noticed myself.
fix it! I DEMAND it!
@Pawnguy7 Classes are primarily useful for the purpose of maintaining invariants.
@Cat could I hear your personal opinion on elm?
@StackedCrooked you fixed it c:
19:17
@DeadMG I imagine I would understand this better if I knew what invariant means.
@Pawnguy7 It is a thing that must always be true.
Or I cannot picture it correctly using "never varies"
for simple example
it is an invariant that vector is always in a valid (although possibly empty) state.
Wow GitHub recognizes Elm as a language
v.end() - v.begin() == v.size()
(Unrelated: ain't it lovely that that is a signed/unsigned comparison)
19:18
Ok.
I still don't know what this would be considered for.
Always valid objects have merits that are self-explanatory.
> Modern CMake with Qt and Boost
..?
@Rapptz Not sure if that makes sense.
Not sure if meant to make sense.
It's the title of this article: kdab.com/modern-cmake-with-qt-and-boost
uhm... those "Lounge projects" in that message on the starboard - do we really have any?
@BartekBanachewicz Haven't used it for anything, might get to it some day
@Abyx Lounge projects as in projects by people in Lounge, not necessarily group ones (those don't tend to work out)
19:21
I have personal projects but not lounge projects.
@CatPlusPlus ah I see
but why not bitbucket/github?
how that loungehubucket would be better?
Have any of you looked at MIT's Open Courseware?
You can use whatever you want vOv I think it'd be nice to have a real CI server and maybe not-primitive wikis and stuff
what's wrong with travis-ci?
@CatPlusPlus I am slightly turned off by the differences from Haskell. I mean, I can't really imagine someone who doesn't come from Haskell to use it. However, removing all important parts (like Applicatives, Monads) and changing the syntax feels like I'm really using its retarded cousin.
19:23
No scheduled builds, no artifact publishing
@CatPlusPlus Probably the same people who are interested in starting projects, but never finishing them...I think that includes me ;-)
No issue tracker integration
@CatPlusPlus yeah there is misread
There is?
No I'm thinking of something else.
Ell
Ell
19:24
On github? yarp
you can see PRs that failed/built
Ell
Ell
Oh.
Well, those earlier points are way more important to me anyway
but that's not really issue tracker
Yeah I was thinking pull request.
19:24
@BartekBanachewicz That's not really the same
> loungehubucket
and we have the name of a new project!
btw, how's progress on Lounge<Chat>?
dead
all lounge projects die upon entry
I don't feel very motivated to work on it
19:26
stillborn.
we need a couple more meta posts
eh, why do every language has to have something that itches me
Ell
Ell
Cos nothing is perfect and nothing is one-size-fits-all
@BartekBanachewicz what itches you in python?
well there is another thing - you can safely publish links to github and be sure that those links will be always valid because github is a big business and it's not going anywhere. however that new lounge thing may (will) eventually die. (domain will expire, whatever)
19:28
@bamboon dynamic typing for starters
Ell
Ell
How can dynamic typing itch you? o.O
What would statically typed python look like? scala?
@Abyx You can get your own domain
@Ell Boo or RPython
@Abyx well...a nuclear war or a world-wide natural disaster might cause problems with those links.
but then we will probably have something more important to worry about than GitHub links ;-)
@bamboon lambda syntax is meh. It's also rather slow.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz python is slow?
Too slow for what?
19:29
@Ell well not as slow as ruby but still
Whoa. TIL Python is slow.
Blowing my mind here Bartek.
Also, the lambda syntax is fine.
Ell
Ell
c++ is slow
Lambda syntax being restricted to single expression is silly
@Ell yeah we all know that ruby is the fastest language on the planet
but I admit I haven't really researched python WRT game development
@CatPlusPlus I'd like to help with Lounge<Chat>, but I haven't been able to find a place where I can contribute with my current skill set...and learning C# is going rather slowly...mostly because it doesn't grab my attention as much as my dozens of other projects.
19:31
@Rapptz that syntax was designed to discourage using lambdas, IIRC
might be interesting, but I think I'd prefer something statically typed anyway
We have WebSockets implemented and that's about it
and those weird typed dialects look weird
Ell
Ell
I'm just sayin' c++ is slow is all
Maybe I should start by learning wth WebSockets is ;-)
19:32
@Ell yeah it is.
@Ell If unoptimized C++ outranges python with pypy by a factor of 10, something is wrong
@Code-Guru basically regular sockets with web handshake
@Code-Guru WebSockets are really simple
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz you're writing bad python? idk :3
Or you're running on slow hardware
I"m sure they are
@Ell I compared on the same hardware.
19:32
I just haven't done any network programming
@Ell the thing is I don't want to spend time optimizing if I don't have to
well, other than a few toy examples from textbooks...mostly (dare I say it?) in Java.
Ell
Ell
by bad I mean non-idiomatic
And the point of having to comes much faster in slower languages obviously.
@Ell It wasn't my code and looked pretty pythonish
I don't think people think use python for performance.
19:33
Again talking about language speed :cripes:
oh but of course
I am not saying that python is bad
and I already said I might evaluate it later for game development.
Ell
Ell
I'm pretty sure no modern language is too slow without any requirements
however it's also not perfect and that's what @bamboon asked about IIRC
pygame sucks
@Ell depends on what "too slow" means obviously
@Rapptz thanks for heads up
Ell
Ell
19:35
sorry, edited :P
@Ell now it makes even less sense
nothing is too slow w/o reqs
Ell
Ell
that's right
Hello, is there anyone familiar with Machine Vision?
no one. ever.
4
@Ell and you assumed I also had no reqs when making my statement. That's nice of you.
19:39
I can't shed any light on that subject. I can see no way forward.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz well when you say "python is slow", what was I supposed to do? :S
Anyway. We've been here before
let's just move on
JBL
JBL
Machine vision ? That's a topic for Robot, right ?
no.
@Ell divine the requirements from your crystal ball
he doesn't know anything about machine vision.
Ell
Ell
19:40
@uvts_cvs maybe sorta not really but I'm interested
JBL
JBL
/irony
@Ell are you familiar with camera calibration?
Ell
Ell
@uvts_cvs No. What does it do?
@Ell An image that came from a camera is usually distorted because of the perspective (and lens distorsion), the camera calibration is a procedure to correct the distorsion.
*distortion
(fixes etymology impedance mismatch)
Ell
Ell
19:43
I don't know, my usual answer to this stuff is opencv
@uvts_cvs You need a 3D test card.
..and I need beer. The path before me is clear and well-lit, (A50).
@MartinJames you mean a calibration target like this one? docs.opencv.org/_downloads/acircles_pattern.png
I'm going to add something alike this to my standards proposal. — Skeen 14 mins ago
Sigh.
Ell
Ell
@MartinJames Watch out! There are police vans watching for speeding cars
19:46
giveup
nohope
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's this proposal
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well. I get that checking for stateful/less lambdas is kinder-garten TMP abuse, but don't we have many ... less-than useful traits already?
@sehe thank you for the fix :-)
> I haven't seen this proposal before, but even though there's a common goal, there's a difference in implementation; compiler-supported / library-only.
@Ell OK, thanks. Since the main instrument I look at is the fuel-consumption display, I'm not likely to be stopped for speeding:)
19:49
@uvts_cvs Ah. Please consider using the "reply-to" arrow buttons in the future; I had a hard time working out what that was about :/ ()
> In C++14, I fully expect that 90+% of the non-legacy lambdas that are called with at least one parameter will be declared polymorphically
Oh god. Not in my code base. Maybe 60%. Okay, 70%. But I'm the guy that write 0u and 123.d too
@sehe It's not useful as is.
:s I just realised he's okay with it failing on overloaded functions
Any such trait for real would need compiler magic. Otherwise it's just a flat-out lie.
@sehe thank you again for the help with "reply to" button. I am a newbie in chat
Welcome to the chat. Have you been referred to the newbie hints?
See star-board -------->
Xeo
Xeo
19:51
I have to admit, I can see why people are so tempted by lambdas - they're very rigorously defined in the standard.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. There's this
Xeo
Xeo
(also not compatible with polylambdas, obviously)
@sehe no, sorry, I've just checked the faq hosted at SO
@Xeo lawl? structs and classes are more rigorously defined (since: simpler). Therefore, I claim lambdas are tempting because they involve less (a) forethought (b) typing
@Xeo And compatible with ints.
Xeo
Xeo
19:52
@R.MartinhoFernandes pssst.
@uvts_cvs Oh :) I suppose those are largely orthogonal
@sehe IOW, a test that generates both false positives and false negatives is worthless.
I'll add that to comments.
lmao
^^ Seriously? What am I? StackOverflow? I can't even downvote or close vote this...
19:56
@Mysticial what's dat?
friggen email
Is this a pi-off?
@Mysticial haha
I can get no (ba da dum) satissssssfaction ♫ (lalalala)
@Mysticial are you actually sharing them somehow?
19:57
@bamboon I did before I left school.
Xeo
Xeo
@Xeo: Please post an answer. :-) — Nawaz 25 secs ago
I think he misunderstood my comment.
@Jefffrey making up words, I see.
via Bittorrent. But I don't have that kind of bandwidth naymore.
Ah ninja edit.
19:58
I found this weird website a while back. It had forums.
You know how you can usually click a link to move up the hierarchy?
@Mysticial Just to be obnoxious, you should start actually doing it. Find out his email box size, and send him enough every day to stop him from receiving any other email until he picks up that installment. :-| (Automated, of course).
@Mysticial ah ok, ... as if youtube didn't have bandwidth ;)
@Pawnguy7 what hierarchy?
@bamboon I can't use corporate resources for personal stuff.
@R.MartinhoFernandes: Several possibility spring into mind; debugging is one, also whenever a feature is available one can sometimes find good ways of using it. - Also I'm generally just interested in if it's possible. — Skeen 1 min ago
19:59
Not to mention anything I do using corporate resources risks surrendering ownership of it to Google.
@Mysticial No, but you could post a video of scrolling through a listing for 10 minutes or so... :-)
@Mysticial sure man, was meant in an ironic way. How you like your so far?
@JerryCoffin lol
@Jefffrey for example
Normally you cannot link to what you are on, but can go back to the one before.
@Pawnguy7 Those are called breadcrumbs.
20:00
@Pawnguy7 oh ok ^
But I found this one, where you can go to where you are, but not the one immediately before...
@Mysticial Just have to make sure it's just a little blurred, so you can read about one digit out of 20 or so...
@Pawnguy7 sounds exciting
Sounds like a pain to navigate.
Feels that way too.
I just cannot remember where it was.
@bamboon ah ok :)
20:03
@Mysticial sounds not too good
@Mysticial Wait -- I have a better idea. Send him a picture of all six (eight?) hard drives containing it...
@JerryCoffin That's a good one. :)
Xeo
Xeo
@Mysticial He interpreted it as an answer to his question.
@Xeo ah, now I get it ^^
20:06
@Xeo does the standard call lambdas without captures "stateless"?
Xeo
Xeo
That guy doesn't want to give up.
I - can - ♬ - get - no / en-cap-sulation. ♫
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes It doesn't call them anything.
> The closure type for a lambda-expression with no lambda-capture has a public non-virtual non-explicit const conversion function to pointer to function having the same parameter and return types as the closure type’s function call operator.
is the only special thing, as far as I can see
Ell
Ell
can I have a static char* description = "..."; as well as std::string description(); const without conflicts?
20:08
A lambda without captures is not necessarily stateless btw, making the result of this test even more worthless than it already is. (consider: static int where_is_your_statelessness_now = 0; void bar() { auto f = [/* look ma, no captures! */]{ return ++where_is_your_statelessness_now; }; ... }) — R. Martinho Fernandes 3 mins ago
@Xeo you can answer in the negative
@JerryCoffin wow. good idea (and hope to not get banned for eternity)
Banned from what? He opted in :v
Ell
Ell
meh. I think I just need a static in the function...
@sehe s/to not/not to/
Xeo
Xeo
@Mysticial You could just send him 10 trillion random digits.
20:11
@Xeo Isn't that what the first 10 trillion digits of pi are?
Xeo
Xeo
heh, touché
(Non-joke question: what's the entropy of the digits of pi?)
No it is carefully calculated see
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's been asked. SO/P.SE
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19963361/stxxl-installation-and-linking
plz help its very urgent
Xeo
Xeo
20:12
btw, the committee seems to be in a bit of a conundrum wrt capture-initializers, since they introduce names into the lambda. In my head, it's a non-problem, but it seems like they are considering making those names available to the outside :s
@R.MartinhoFernandes Other than the fact that it's Pi, it's better than any other RNG.
@Xeo Ahahaha what
Xeo
Xeo
Which, in the same breath, would forbid [args = foo(pack)...] to work, while [pack...] does.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't run the analysis on it myself. But a couple of heavy-weight mathematicians sent me a program for which I fed it all the digits. And it's as good as perfectly random.
@Mysticial Cool, I suspected as much.
Xeo
Xeo
20:13
@Mysticial Except very predictable when you have the list available, eh :D
It's so urgent you don't have time to write plz. But have time to string together redundant periods ... i hv to conclude i m gun b 2 late already — sehe 12 secs ago
@Xeo That's why I phrased the question in terms of entropy. (say, it means it's not compressible, for example)
@sehe ^^
@Xeo whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Xeo
Xeo
I have no fucking clue, that's just what I gathered from my chats with zygoloid. :/
20:14
he the clang guy?
Xeo
Xeo
Richard Smith, yes
@Xeo but arguably, I only need to change one of the constants in the computation to generate a bunch of meaningless random numbers with just as much entropy.
@Xeo ah. That helps more for me
Xeo
Xeo
If they don't make the names available, they don't need to introduce something like a pack-variable that can be expanded out-of-context
@Mysticial Is that true? (I mean, are you sure that wouldn't introduce any relevant deviations?)
20:16
^ sickness. The sirens of over-featuring luring again
@R.MartinhoFernandes Unlikely. The computation is as good as a hash function. You change any bit and the whole thing is completely different.
It just that the math says that the right input will give you Pi.
Xeo
Xeo
Btw, when you did your 10-trillion-digits run, did you piggy-back on your 5-trillion-digits run and started again where that left off?
I don't see how you could do that
@Xeo Can't actually. That's because previous computations that truncated precision to 5 trillion would need to be redone at a higher precision.
Xeo
Xeo
I see
20:18
@Mysticial That still doesn't meant the new output will not be more "pattern-y", though (I'm not claiming it would be, just dismissing your explanation as insufficient)
@Rapptz There are ways it could be done, (there's at least one algorithm that will let you start the computation at an arbitrary digit) but at least AFAIK, the algorithms like that are enough slower that it would almost certainly be faster to start over with a faster one then compute 5 trillion with them.
@rightfold tell me about the first three
@R.MartinhoFernandes True. But it probably isn't gonna make it any less random than Pi.
Which makes me wonder. Has anyone ever done an entropy test on chaining hash functions?
Like if I took an SHA-1 hash and repeatedly rehashed the result.
Eventually, it will go into a cycle since there's only 2^160 states.
But until then...
Today I received the "Epic" badge for the first time :)
You only get it once, I think.
20:23
@FredOverflow gz
@FredOverflow nice!
there's not gonna be second one, unless you start socking
@Mysticial It's been tested pretty thoroughly, and within any reasonable number of re-hashes, no pattern emerges (as in: nobody has found a way to distinguish the result from noise).
I thought Mysticial was up to speed with the SE game rules
20:25
@melak47 Same thing happens in Eclipse.
@FredOverflow :)
@FredOverflow you were right. today is the VS 2013 launch :)
no idea what the difference between launch and release is though :E
Release is engineering, launch is marketing
@Mysticial I think he argues precisely the reverse
@melak47 I persuaded the admins to install it after all, but they had problems because of IE10 :) Do the DreamSpark donwloads still require IE10?
20:27
@FredOverflow idk
@sehe shhhhh You're only supposed to read the first sentence. :P
I couldn't be bothered to download again just to check if I can install without IE10 :p
@FredOverflow You only get it once. The next step along that line is Legendary.
@melak47 Release is when the TT18-A Launch Stability Enhancers get released. Launch is when the engines start pushing the rocket up.
@sehe <insert obligatory "OH U FRIGGIN ELITIST" comment here>H2CO3 3 mins ago
@Mysticial Oh shit. Why didn't anyone tell be earlier
20:29
@JerryCoffin reqs?
@FredOverflow Don't think so. Recently downloaded something with Firefox via this crappy download-manager.
@FredOverflow 200+ rep in a day 150 times (vs. 50 times for Epic).
@FredOverflow 150 days. Lol, I thought I had Epic, not Legendary
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin not cap, just over 200
@Xeo over 200 or at least 200?
20:33
at least
Xeo
Xeo
^
over = (>=)
(for me, obviously)
> earned at least 200 reputation on XXX days
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes s/public vs private/encapsulation/?
I think they should, however, make Legendary so you can earn it multiple times, one for every 150 days at 200 or above.
20:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes That was a really big stability enhancer right there
(Or a rocket with really terrible TWR)
@JerryCoffin are you close to getting 300 days?
@sehe No, not exactly (I'd be working on my fourth).
oh. wow. Ah now I remember. 200k
incredible
Xeo
Xeo
Oh, VC++Next stream starting in a few mins I think
@Xeo linky please
> So you often see papers titled like “A Monadic Approach to a-solved-problem” insighful
2
@Xeo Thanks
@Xeo Its after the .NET thing?
Xeo
Xeo
ya
scroll down for the guide
oh thanks, i hadnt scrolled enough ^.^;
20:47
ALWAYS BE SCROLLING
Oh my, the new Blender dev website is sweet
> Maniphest
??
Ell
Ell
@Borgleader ooooh purrty
I wonder if they are using the new ui
new site is nice too I prefer the old main site blender.org
Meh, why am I still on that lambda thing.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can't resist poking more holes, even though it's already dead and past ready to bury?
20:54
@Ell you suck :P
@JerryCoffin Nah. AFAICT it's because this Skeen guy shows signs of "almost getting it"
Hi all. Anyone remembers/has a link to the question/comments that have been recently discussing why T myObj(); is not the "most vexing parse" issue? (This was going on a few days ago.) I'm participating in a local programming contest and it seems that the organizers also confuse this problem with the MVP...
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think I figured out the correct solution to the callback think we talked about earlier
@H2CO3 In the case of T myObj(); the M in MVP stands for "moderately".
@H2CO3 Erm, what is it then?
Is this a trick question about semanatics?
(typo intended)
20:58
@FredOverflow Ah OK. So, they confuse the ModVexParse with the MostVexParse.
The most vexing parse is a specific form of syntactic ambiguity resolution in the C++ programming language. The term was used by Scott Meyers in Effective STL (2001). It is formally defined in section 6.8 of the C++ language standard. Example with classes An example is: class Timer { public: Timer(); }; class TimeKeeper { public: TimeKeeper(const Timer& t); int get_time(); }; int main() { TimeKeeper time_keeper(Timer()); return time_keeper.get_time(); } The line TimeKeeper time_keeper(Timer()); could be disambiguated either as # a variable definition for variable t...
@R.MartinhoFernandes IDK, that's what I'd like to know :) yeah, I see what you are saying about the tyop :P
@FredOverflow been there, seen that! TimeKeeper time_keeper(Timer()); has not the same parsing ambiguity as TimeKeeper time_keeper(); for some reason.

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