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20:00
shame on kerrek
I thought we already established that Kerrek is only in it for the rep.
template <typename> struct remove_member; -- what does that do?
hey
Xeo
Xeo
@Jefffrey Yields the pure type of a member.
I need to write something about this now that I'm famous.
20:05
Write that you're famous.
HAI! I'M FAMOUS! BYE
@R.MartinhoFernandes would you recommend using Ogonek instead of ICU?
@Xeo "pure type"?
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes huh?
you know, since I think the Internet is a better place without people encouraging this kind of code, I don't have any qualms in down voting it
@Venemo no. Ogonek is still under development.
Feel free to use it, but do it aware that it means you are essentially an alpha tester
Xeo
Xeo
Wait, how are you famous now?
20:09
I need to take some time off other hobbies to make a big push for it.
@Xeo not my words!
@Xeo He was cited by Scott Meyers on one of his slides
Kerbal Space Center needs you!
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see. :) I'm quite curious about it, are there API docs yet?
Xeo
Xeo
@Jefffrey Oh
Scott Meyers is advertising a series of articles about tuples and meta programming by @martinfernandes. http://t.co/x4CQCx0HRZ
Xeo
Xeo
20:10
Yeah, I just saw the tweet
@r.
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks! The thing is, I haven't quite decided what to use yet and am still looking around. I also don't mind being an alpha tester sometimes
3 messages moved to bin
@R.MartinhoFernandes my words, so you're famous.
20:16
I go to the right train platform, but a cookie at a stand there, and then head back to the platform I came from.
s/but/buy/
So I've spent two hours watching JS videos
the one about Monads was pretty damn stupid actually
They have the best cookies at platform 6
I guess people shoehorning monads into other languages don't get them
@R.MartinhoFernandes "but you don't need spanish to learn about burritos!" (actual quote)
So. Objective C; great or awful?
20:19
Generally, in a class public interface's member function, is it better to return an STL container or to provide begin and end methods with custom iterators?
Yeah. People that use the burrito analogy don't get them either (burritos or monads? probably both)
@caps Yes
@Jefffrey Yes
cat is on a spree
I can see a pattern there
@caps no.
@R.MartinhoFernandes :)
in JavaScript, 29 secs ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@BartekBanachewicz We're (hopefully) building a SO chat clone for fun as a room project.
cough
20:30
I'm right here you know.
@BenjaminGruenbaum you should stop doing that. It's creepy.
Nice.
fuck you chat
@R.MartinhoFernandes haha. I have $_GET with exec in PHP running in production with no sanitization.
20:32
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's that?
I trust you fellow loungers are competent enough to rebuild that link
@BenjaminGruenbaum Congrats
@CatPlusPlus Thanks, I needed to hear that.
"Great stories start with PHP"
Oh wait.
I have a C# app to write that will prolly push harvest aside for a while
20:33
@Bartek search for php code on github that executes shell commands with sudo directly from a query parameter
@R.MartinhoFernandes sweeet.
Xeo
Xeo
Soo... I've been playing the Stanley Parable for 5 minutes and hit - the credits.
static typing could have helped there.
@R.MartinhoFernandes How?
20:35
by not allowing to execute unsanitized input
Make $_GET return a tainted string type
But then you can do it even without static typing
@BenjaminGruenbaum type CleanString, type DirtyString
in JS it's always a string and no one gives a fuck
@BartekBanachewicz That's not true.
@BartekBanachewicz I find it amusing that that's the bit that bothers you :P
20:37
It's php jot js
fuck you phone
(Rather than, let's say - the fact $_GET is a superglobal, the fact it's just a string storage, the fact all the codes there are a mess)
@R.MartinhoFernandes why?
@BenjaminGruenbaum so what are you going to do, enclose that in an object?
Static typing is one thing that doesn't bother me there though. The person who wrote that code knew exactly what they were trying to do. They'd just make a CleanString out of that DirtyString somehow.
@BenjaminGruenbaum in a process called cleaning
or sanitizing
go figure.
sorry can't follow replies
20:38
@BartekBanachewicz no, because that person wrote that code because they want to execute arbitrary code..
They're dumb, so no, they'd just null sanitize
@BenjaminGruenbaum or maybe they aren't aware of the danger / forgot (which is done constantly)
and is a source of problems on a daily basis.
@Xeo You play through it many times making different choices.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Yeah, I know
I think I managed to die just now
20:39
@BartekBanachewicz Type system won't help with that
And no, they didn't forget
@BartekBanachewicz Would you forget?
@BenjaminGruenbaum your assumption that "programmer is responsible and smart" is wrong altogether
@CatPlusPlus it will if you do it by mistake.
"mistake" being a keyword here
2 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
They're dumb, so no, they'd just null sanitize
20:40
but in @Benjamin 's dream word no one makes mistakes apparently
@BartekBanachewicz No, your assumption that "The programmer is a retard" is wrong altogether. Programmers can fuck things up in oh so many ways. A type system doesn't stop anyone from being an idiots.
Anyone here have experience with hardware clocks?
@CatPlusPlus you're saying that like it's a tautology, which it's not
If you know what you're doing then a) you don't do this in the first place b) you don't use PHP
@BenjaminGruenbaum it makes it harder in the first place
Xeo
Xeo
20:41
hahahaha, if you go too quick, the narrator complains
awesome
@CatPlusPlus I agree only with b). a) happens way to often
The problem is not even PHP, it's PHP's server application programming interface and abuse.
no, it's PHP, but that's irrelevant
I was wondering whether to use a silicone crystal vs RC (resistor-capacitor combination) oscillator for timing in my program
20:42
@BartekBanachewicz Did you ever, in your years programming, forget code that does arbitrary remote execution?
This is not a problem a type system would solve in any way
You'd have to be really stupid for that.
Ell
Ell
@IDWMaster how about ceramic?
(idk anything about this)
I just wanted to feel like I knew something :(
@BenjaminGruenbaum No, but I can give you an example from my real life coding where strong typing helps a lot.
@Xeo are you playing the Stanley parable?
20:43
which isn't all that different from what we're talking about right now
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not saying strong typing is worthless... Also, that argument is not related to this one. I'm saying stupid programmers can do stupid things anywhere and a typesystem doesn't help.
@Ell Laugh out loud
@BenjaminGruenbaum And I'm not saying "stupid programmers". I'm saying all programmers.
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum a strong type system most certainly does help
@Ell And I've never claimed differently.
Xeo
Xeo
20:44
10 mins ago, by Xeo
Soo... I've been playing the Stanley Parable for 5 minutes and hit - the credits.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm confused now
The fuck are you arguing about
@Xeo I'm sorry, I didn't read that
Those people wanted to execute arbitrary commands through PHP shit
And you're arguing that type system would change anything
Static analysis is useful.All I said is that static typing does not help you solve problems with your logic, which is where most of your problems are. The problem in the above PHP code isn't typing - it's logic.
20:45
@CatPlusPlus it's a longer discussion, move along
I'd like a timing system that uses the least amount of power and the highest accuracy. Silicone crystal is the most accurate, but there seems to be some debate about power consumption. Also; startup time/power isn't an issue -- it's going to be kept on all the time anyways.
:cripes:
Ell
Ell
@CatPlusPlus calm down now, calm down
@BenjaminGruenbaum and I'm saying that whenever types convey meaningful information, such as sanitized/dirty input or coordinate systems or whatever, they help with logic
Because they are, bear with me, part of it.
Ell
Ell
just don't read it xD
20:45
@BartekBanachewicz Of course they do.
@BartekBanachewicz Type safety doesn't guarantee input sanity though...
@IDWMaster It explicitely differentiates dirty and clean data.
that's all that is needed.
@BartekBanachewicz I never argued against typing or type safety... I said I don't think static typing really gives you most of the type information you actually need about behavior which is what you really care about when you're talking about types.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Maybe you were misusing statically typed code then?
@BartekBanachewicz Nobody says otherwise!
20:47
Because if the things you described happens, most certainly the types are simply badly feated for the problem.
The original problem is not thinking, and the type system won't think for you
5
medical appointment tomorrow.
Types in a project should convey meaningful information about the data that is processed.
@CatPlusPlus Bravo.
20:48
If they don't, you're doing it wrong.
IOW if type system doesn't help you, you're doing it wrong. (or the system is bad)
You really don't have to repeat stuff we already know
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG good luck
(It is not relevant to the thing that started this discussion)
Ell
Ell
driving theory exam tomorrow :P
@CatPlusPlus just as the safety rail won't, but it will prevent you from falling down.
20:49
Not if you jump over it
but then you're forced to think about that
@BartekBanachewicz I can go on and on about where I teach, or who I met, or what books I've read and what people I discuss this with but that'd be pointless and a fallacy. I read a lot of code and I write a lot of code in many languages, that doesn't qualify for anything either so I tell you this. Give me an example.
Not really, you're just forced to get an obstacle out of the way
Show me how static typing really made a change in the logic.
@BartekBanachewicz You're forced to think about it anyway. If you don't think about the data in your project, the relationships between objects and how they interact you're not doing it right. No type system can save you if your logic isn't solid.
@Ell Luck doesn't really come into it. The best that can happen is that they think about scheduling surgery for several weeks from now.
20:50
Think about it: they already found about exec() and sudo
If they'd have to untaint the input manually to use it, they just would
@BenjaminGruenbaum That particular thing would be hard, because you can take any strongly typed code and remove types from it and it will obviously work.
They're making this jump either way
@CatPlusPlus it's not an obstacle; It's a reminder for you, a security guard that's been set explicitely to warn you that you shouldn't do what you're doing.
@BartekBanachewicz I can not think of one instance the constraints the type system imposes were any stronger than the behavioral constraints I imposed (even if only implicitly).
doing an addition of two unrelated types is one, casting const away, for example, is completely different
20:52
@BartekBanachewicz But it doesn't matter in this case!
@BenjaminGruenbaum My example was with the coordinate system. 3d vectors were tagged with the coordinate system type tag, which prevented me from mixing the numbers up in a way that wouldn't make sense.
Remote code execution is the sole goal of this thing
@CatPlusPlus So what? It matters in many other cases.
@BartekBanachewicz Are vectors value objects in your system?
Xeo
Xeo
Okay, I think I managed to piss off the narrator
20:53
WE KNOW
@BenjaminGruenbaum A vector is a triple of numbers, so I guess yes. (not sure what a value object means for you)
Xeo
Xeo
I guess total control was not the best choice
@BartekBanachewicz Were there any times you wanted to add a vector and let's say, a parrot together and the type system stopped you from doing so?
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, that fully qualifies as a value object.
@BenjaminGruenbaum No, but I wanted to add vectors from different coordinate systems, which makes as much sense as the parrot.
Well, I know, I don't know what the other guy is arguing about still
20:55
Did you have code like otherVector = myVector + myParrot and the type system said "Oh wait just a second Bartek, you're trying to add a parrot to that vector!"?
Type system can stop a large class of bugs from happening
Esp with dependent typing
@BenjaminGruenbaum "you're trying to add vectors which make no sense together!"
It still doesn't matter in the context of the original problem so I have no idea why is this still going
@CatPlusPlus because our discussion goes far beyond the original problem. kthx.
You should watch some bad programming tutorials
20:57
@CatPlusPlus I will if you write the app for me.
@BartekBanachewicz The thing is that, in C you might get memory overflows and all sorts of bad shit because of that, but in most languages you can't and would throw an error. There is no doubt that in that case type checks make sense and I'd probably use Haskell for that if I'm able.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz app?
Doing number crunching with Haskell is very fun ^^
@BenjaminGruenbaum That was in C++ actually. Anyway, that extends far further than just numerical computations.
@Ell for my dad.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Also C is terrible and not really typesafe so...
@BartekBanachewicz I'd never use Ruby or JavaScript or another weakly typed language for that sort of thing you're describing. JS especially before they get value objects. I even have a post ranting about Node for financial applications because of the dumb numeric types.

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