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01:24
lol!
 
5 hours later…
06:08
hello
is anybody here?
Depends.
07:02
Good morning !
sbi
sbi
@AliAhmed No, nobody here.
@sbi are you up already? are you at work?
sbi
sbi
@ManofOneWay No, I'm not up yet.
Actually, I'm having breakfast with two of my kids. Later they'll go on vacation with their mother and I'll go to work.
@sbi I see, I'm at work.
07:22
I need help related to SMTP and TLS
has anyone work on this before?
Nope, but I know a great programming Q&A website you can try
please give me the link to that website
@jalf I like your picture
@jalf Is it a penguin?
yeah
07:28
@ I see you are from Denmark, I'm from Sweden, what a tragedy in Norway..
yeah...
@jalf Did you also have a minute's silence yesterday?
07:43
no, I forgot, tbh. :)
07:54
@jalf that's not good!
Morning !
@ManofOneWay I doubt it makes much difference :)
@jalf that's not a good way of thinking =)
08:09
I'm not really the ceremony type. I've spent plenty of time thinking about what happened, don't think I really need to demonstrate that to the world
@jalf I read your blog, are you involved in C++0x in any way?
Nope, just as a user/spectator
Okey, you have any idea when it's gonna be released?
08:25
a couple of months
until the standard is formally approved by ISO and published
the standard text was finalized months ago, and compiler support is gradually getting there
hey
I don't understand how people put up with this every day.
Cars are scary man.
I think I'll go back to taking the bus.
They are.
Plus, the bus is cheaper. Sure it has its drawbacks, like, I have to get up earlier so I don't lose it, but that's a lame excuse for using a car.
And I can sleep or read in the bus. In my car, all I can do is stress out.
08:30
@MartinhoFernandes :) You live in Portugal?
Yeah.
Ooops, s/lose/miss/. Literal translation :)
@MartinhoFernandes is the traffic crazy there?
AFAICT it's nothing out of the ordinary.
And here where I live/work, it's a lot tamer than in Lisbon or Oporto. Here traffic isn't regularly stuck.
Which leaves me even more puzzled about why people put up with it everywhere.
08:54
=)
are you at work now?
What do you do?
I'm a programmer! :)
@MartinhoFernandes of course =) but what exactly do you do?
I do boring stuff mostly. I'm working on an application to ease the submission of the bazillions of forms companies need to send to the government.
08:59
:(
Well, I still haven't completed my degree, so I can't complain much.
Are you a summer worker?
No, I've been here since last December or something.
I'm a regular temp. Or something like that.
I have four exams in September, and then I graduate. Hopefully. Finally. I'm still trying to make up my mind about a master's.
09:08
@MartinhoFernandes You'll have your master's degree in september ?
No, I'll have to decide if I want one in September.
Ok.
In France a master is mandatory if you want a programming job.
depends on what programming job you want I guess?
Which is sometimes stupid, a master in chemistry doesn't help much. :p
html "programmer" for example =)
09:11
Sure. But these kind of jobs are very rare.
@kbok Oh, you need a master's degree in something?
That's just plain retarded.
@MartinhoFernandes A scientific one, yep.
It is.
I'm one year away from starting my master thesis.
In fact, companies used to ask for a master in IT or a engineering school.
On one hand, having one would give me more flexibility when picking a job. On the other hand, I'm fed up with school already.
09:13
But we have a serious shortage of programmers, so they're widening the recruitement.
@MartinhoFernandes So am I. I was thinking about starting a PhD, but, hey, money.
And yeah, that too.
@kbok PhD is another 5 years right?
'Cuz I'm quite fed up of eating pasta every day :)
@ManofOneWay It's 3
It's the LMD system : after your a-levels, you either do 3 years (License), 5(master) or 7-8(doctorat, which is a PhD really)
the time taken for a Doctorat depends of the university
That would be bachelor's, master's and doctorate/PhD in English.
@kbok ok, i thought it was 5 years. Guess I'm wrong =)
09:18
@LucDanton We had bachelor's degrees before. But they're gone now.
@LucDanton Yep, thanks, I couldn't remember
If I were you, I'd definitely go for a masters
Well, I'm really disappointed with how little I'm supposed to have learned in 3 years. I'm not very keen on wasting another two.
a 3-year degree means you're disposable, basically. The first to be hit by hiring freezes, and such. I think that trend is only going to get more pronounced in the future
@MartinhoFernandes Same here.
09:22
@jalf Especially after the USA has collapsed, like, next week ;)
I can't really speak for your school, but here, I felt that the masters degree was where it got really interesting
@jalf I agree, the more advanced courses are the most fun
I agree as well. Last year was the best.
although I also felt I learned a lot in the first 3 years. Different stuff though, and perhaps less generally useful
a lot of "foundational" stuff, like how CPUs/compilers/OSes/whatever works, where the masters degree was more about using all this to do cool stuf
Well, I'm supposed to have learned how CPUs/regexes/memory managers/whatever works.
sbi
sbi
09:25
@MartinhoFernandes My studies were regularly 4 years, with one half a year a practical training semester, and the last half a years used to write your thesis. (I was one of the last ones to get a diploma, which is now largely replaced by Bachelor/Master in Germany.) I also though I hadn't learned much in all those years, until I started to work and met those who hadn't studied CS at all. (Back then you got a dev job by being able to spell "C".) That's when I learned how much I had learned in those years.
Also, how to calculate lots of statistics by hand, but nothing about when and why you would want to do that.
@sbi Do you find that reasonable? That you learned something in comparison with those that happened to fall from the sky into a programming job?
sbi
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes I'd find it very unreasonable if, after so much time, I hadn't learned more than they knew.
@sbi Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff you learn kind of sneaks up on you without you realizing it.
i dropped out, I found I was learning way more on the intertubes than in school
the problem with that is that you don't know what you would have learned in school ;)
making it kind of hard to compare
09:42
I just have to compare myself to my friends who did graduate. I don't think I missed a thing, except for a negative net worth.
Well, when I look at my fellow graduates, I see too many of them that won't know more than someone that had been working without studying CS.
09:56
sup yáll
What's tipping my decision towards "no master's" is the fact that I can learn what I'm supposed to on my own, and some I already have. That makes it look like I'm just paying for a signed paper. Except it takes me two years to get that signature.
And in some areas higher pay rate?
That's what the signed paper buys you.
I'm also demotivated by fellow graduates that have difficulties writing programs to do complicated stuff like computing the average of a series of numbers.
10:16
@MartinhoFernandes can you? I don't think I've ever met a non-CS graduate who knew the things a CS graduate is supposed to know
The problem is most people are under the misconception that CS is supposed to be a degree in programming
2
Which leads to being disillusioned when you realize that studying CS doesn't automatically make you a great programmer
@jalf I'm a CS graduate. Well, almost.
@jalf that's true, there are a lot of people in our class that are not talented programmers
@MartinhoFernandes Didn't you just say you haven't started your masters degree yet? ;)
Lol.
> What does the B in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? Benoit B. Mandelbrot.
same in my university
10:21
Also, as @sbi said, you probably won't even realize what you've learned until you compare against someone who hasn't studied CS
@jalf Wait, what does graduate mean?
some of the people who passed my second year couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag
@MartinhoFernandes It means you finished and passed your degree.
@MartinhoFernandes As far as I know (I'm not a native english speaker either), an undergraduate is someone with a bachelors degree, and graduate is with a masters
but anyway, I think it's true for the bachelors degree as well
@jalf Undergraduates are people studying for bachelors
ah ok :)
I've never met anyone who didn't have a bachelor in CS, who knew all that a CS bachelor is supposed to know
10:22
Graduates are people who have a bachelors, and post-graduates are people studying for Master or PHD
Whatever, I'm almost one. I'm just missing four exams. What measure are you using for "what a CS bachelor is supposed to know"?
@MartinhoFernandes Simple. The stuff I was taught during my bachelor studies ;)
If I get the degree, does that mean I know what I'm supposed to know?
That's the measure I've been using.
@MartinhoFernandes you tell me. I don't know if you learned what you were supposed to have learned
@jalf Isn't that what exams are all about?
Telling if you learned the stuff you should have?
10:25
In theory, perhaps. In practice? Not so much
I've passed several exams despite not understanding half of what the preceding course was supposed to teach me
That's one of the points I was bitching about.
a good memory and confidence will go further than a solid understanding
1 hour ago, by Martinho Fernandes
Well, I'm supposed to have learned how CPUs/regexes/memory managers/whatever works.
In response to:
1 hour ago, by jalf
a lot of "foundational" stuff, like how CPUs/compilers/OSes/whatever works, where the masters degree was more about using all this to do cool stuf
Do you see the contrast?
No, not really. Unless you mean that you were supposed to, but didn't actually, learn how those things work
I learned how compilers work. Except not in class. In class we were taught regular expressions.
And appropriately that was what we had in the exam.
10:29
I learned way more about how compilers work by dicking around and Googling it and asking on SO than I ever did in my Programming Languages course
but then, there's a third-year module called Implementation of Programming Langugages
guess I might ace that class now
I learned and used regular expressions on the job from a Perl book when I was 16
anyway, once again, I have no clue about the quality of your school, nor how much effort you've put into studying. I can only speak from my own experiences
which are that 1) I learned a lot of interesting stuff, and some of it is useful as well, and 2) on the job market, you're a lot better off with a masters degree
I don't (can't) disagree with 2. But my experience regarding 1) is a lot different.
that's the thing about personal experience. It tends to vary from person to person ;)
haha
sbi
sbi
11:14
I also learned a lot about programming by tinkering around on my own. In fact, as I said, I learned so much that way that I thought I had learned little by following lessons. But, as I said, too, I found that I had underestimated what I had learned during lessons.
Also, getting a degree is not necessarily learning to use the tools your profession requires you to use. That's what learning a craft once encompassed, and once you learned to use those tools as a teenager, you would be able to use them until you died. That's not true anymore. Nowadays, and especially in our profession, you find yourself trying to catch up with a total new set of tools at least once a decade.
So there's a lot about learning fundamental knowledge while you get a degree. The concrete skill set actually required when you graduate is something you can pick up along the way, or
11:34
when doing floating point calculations in C++, how would you catch numeric underflow or overflow exceptions? Is there some exception objects or do you just catch a exception type?
The standard does not say much about how floating point works.
But most implementations use IEEE754.
IEEE754 only dictates that some flag is set in that case.
Normally, fp under/overflows aren't reported at all
@MartinhoFernandes I'm guessing that would be a flag in the CPU/FPU?
11:36
have to mess around with the fpu flags to change that behavior
Not sure how you can check that flag outside of raw assembly.
@TonyTheTiger Yes.
compiler might offer intrinsics
hmmm interesting
MSVC AFAIK has a switch to add checks and generate exceptions.
The OS might have functions to control the fpu as well
11:36
Other compilers AFAIK do not support it.
why do you need this though?
IMHO, usually, it is not necessary to have that.
How often do you underflow/overflow a floating point number?
...if you are checking your inputs well and know your domain.
I generally think of FP types as a kind of "best-effort" representation. It's rarely accurate, but it gets as close as it can. And I'd expect it to behave the same way wrt. overflows. Don't blow up the program, just try to keep going
@jalf makes sense. I was merely curious, I don't need to catch overflow/underflow errors on floating point values right now
You can use arbitrary precision floats instead, if you need accuracy and not raw performance.
11:41
aww, my code got slower after I rewrote the core of my library
the lesson here: never refactor ;)
is that valid c++: typdef long unsigned real ?
shouldn't it be unsigned long ?
It's not really a real type.
What? It's fake?
Well, all typedefs are fake. :P
mine aren't
11:48
lol
Liar.
Ugh, working on this thing is exhausting.
@CatPlusPlus you're just jealous because my typedefs are better than yours
Are you talking about sex again? Hard to tell these days.
my unsigned is larger than your unsigned
11:58
:P
awww, my code is around 30% slower after refactoring
lol
what did you do to it?
just tore out some of the really old and messy core code, and replaced it with simpler, better-designed stuff
You could try refuctoring instead.
Heard it does wonders.
haven't really tweaked it for performance yet though, so hopefully I can catch up to the old version again
@MartinhoFernandes oof, the "treasure hunt" slide is so painfully familiar
amazing how many people actually write code like that, and sincerely believe it to be a good thing
12:09
it is
for them :P
man
I'm writing my AST classes, and holy shit I have never used so much inheritance in one place
12:26
Ew
gonna need to get an object pool to make this stuff even remotely efficient
What language are you parsing?
my own
you know, I could re-factor the grammar to detect erroneous uses of break and continue
that would take a while though
I see.
Have you started using some version control system, yet?
Oh god, how can people seriously devote brain cells to debating something as trivial as "how to write a get function"?
12:40
lol
no, not yet :P
I seriously can't think of much that has harmed the field of programming more than the OOP religion
agreed
I had classes on that.
OOP religion that is.
@DeadMG remind me why not. bzr init; bzr add *; bzr commit is hardly a huge amount of overhead, is it? ;)
You can save 5 keystrokes with hg :P ( hg init; hg add; hg commit )
12:43
what provoked the 'get' thing btw: stackoverflow.com/questions/6830079/…
Heh.
@jalf I like the "setter" named get_data.
Pretty intuitive.
One thing I always have to think about is whether to return reference or an instance from getters.
@DeadMG: Do you never use any VCS or just now for this one project?
I've never used any
mostly, I'm just too lazy and it's very rare that something happens to my source
facepalm
12:48
but again, with the handful of characters it takes to use a VCS, laziness really isn't an excuse
even when nothing happens to your source, just having it in a VCS can really make a lot of things easier
Indeed.
I love that I can find out when and in what context I have made some change.
I could not possibly do that without a VCS.
plus, as long as you use something sensible like bzr or hg, you should be able to learn to use it in roughly a minute.
ok
I signed up for bitbucket, and they use Mercurial, right?
@jalf well especially when setting up version control is dead simple nowadays
even if it is just on your own machine
Yeah. I'd just run it locally though, if you're after the quick and easy solution
also, @MartinhoFernandes is the go-to guy for mercurial. I'm more of a bzr guy :D
So he'll have to make good on my claim that you can learn it in a minute ;)
why run mercurial when you can just run SVN?
(i'm just curious - not making a jab at anyone)
It's serverless?
it's not much of a dvcs if it isn't ;)
12:55
goddamn Bison
well if I could ever get my work off of ClearCase, I would move to mercurial :)
heh
I accidentally made another shift/reduce conflict, and it won't generate the report file like I asked :(
That "accidentally" sounds like something a VCS revert would solve.
no, the S/R conflict is an accident, but the cause certainly isn't
ok
now how on earth do you add something to the repo?
12:59
hg add <filename>
hg add without params add everything.

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