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13:00
I've never been the same since
@KonradRudolph I assume there's a reason for it. .NET did the same (the .NET Compact Framework used a really shitty and slow GC). I have no idea what the design tradeoff was that made that seem like a good idea
I think that fundamentally damaged me
The best mobile platform now is either Ubuntu Phone or Blackberry 7
ITT Tony got cancer from Oracle.
simpler (ie shorter and more compact) code, perhaps?
13:00
both C++ and OpenGL
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@ScottW :)
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
(from developer and technical perspective)
@ScottW Wasn't that EA?
I'm sweating my balls off
damn its hot in here
13:01
Nah, man, Oracle is eviler.
I am not sure if i prefer normal linux kernel of Ubuntu compared to RTOS in Blackbery
@ScottW No it isn't. EA just makes mediocre games and dubious business decisions. Oracle acts like they have a mandate to wipe out civilized life on Earth
Blackberry will be a bit slower on the same specs.
It was simply a reference to that online customer vote thing where people voted EA to be "the worst company on the planet"
13:01
@jalf The reason is purely economical. Smart GCs exist, but are hard/expensive to implement, especially in constrained memory environments
@jalf lol, really?
@KonradRudolph No, like I said, .NET had a perfectly good GC, but for the Compact Framework, they explicitly chose to write a new, crappier, one
@jalf And the expectation is probably that you only run simple applications on mobile. This is going to change, but I’m not sure it will change the GCs, after all, you still have native as an alternative.
So clearly there's another tradeoff at play
@jalf Yes, because GC on desktop != GC on mobile, in particular, sophisticated GCs have way bigger code bases
13:02
@jalf Maybe the good one wouldn't "fit"?
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, I'm thinking it's something like that
@ScottW correct
@R.MartinhoFernandes cough Lua
mobile phones have gigabytes of RAM these days
I don't know how a proper GC wouldn't "fit"
@BartekBanachewicz No
13:04
@BartekBanachewicz Wrong.
@KonradRudolph what? how so?
Xeo
Xeo
Fammit, I'm about to ask a Flash-related question on SO, but I really don't want. :|
> on the iPhone 4S, you start getting warned around 40MB and you get killed around 213MB
Mobile phones with gigabytes of RAM exist these days.
That's completely irrelevant.
@Xeo hahahahahhahahaha
I thought 1GB is pretty standard already o.O
13:05
Lua is the answer to everything
A holy grail
@BartekBanachewicz On shops. So what.
@CatPlusPlus it was just an example dumbass
@BartekBanachewicz Sure but your application cannot use that memory
@R.MartinhoFernandes penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/what-is-worst-in-life (skip to around 2:55 if you're in a hurry)
@BartekBanachewicz Your users will be using your applications, not the stores.
Xeo
Xeo
13:05
Better make a throw-away account for that... no way I want that shit linked to this account :|
@KonradRudolph but weren't we talking about OS-based GC?
@BartekBanachewicz GC memory is still allocated per-application
they're collecting the garbage right now outside
shall I send them Android?
@Xeo You know, I think I might be enjoying too much Schadenfreude lately.
@KonradRudolph hm.
13:06
@R.MartinhoFernandes No such thing as too much.
Actually as far as I know the only reason for not using a common GC pool (and make no mistake: no GC system does that!) is security, i.e. preventing cross-process memory access
that sounds reasonable.
also probably faster swapping to disk (which actually is done a lot on mobile)
yes, but it incurs a crazy cost. A shared GC memory pool would probably solve a lot of problems
@BartekBanachewicz How would that be?
Isn't swapping done on a per-page basis?
To be honest, I can't help but notice that actually native languages with MMM are better fit for mobiles just because GC.
@R.MartinhoFernandes per-memory-page?
13:09
There's a difference?
no
pages are memory pages. They can be in-memory or on disk
Well the usage pattern dictates sleeping some apps and leaving the others in RAM
whatever
@BartekBanachewicz huh? Maybe I'm missing something, but the only mobile OS I know of which uses a pagefile is Windows Phone. iOS and Android do not (but of course apps can swap data to disk manually, if that's what you mean)
I am not sure how inefficient would be dealing with cases on boundaries.
@jalf Android swaps the apps that don't fit in memory
13:10
@jalf Windows Phone has a pagefile. Jeez
@BartekBanachewicz In that case, having a shared pool would make paging terrible because of fragmentation. (i.e. you want to page app A, but that brings some of app B along)
@BartekBanachewicz Oh right. That's a different mechanism, obviously, but yeah, I get you
@R.MartinhoFernandes exactly what I was thinking
I'm obviously not up to date with phone stuff
I merely use the thing
@ScottW oh gawd. Now I never want to do Windows Phone stuff again
@BartekBanachewicz You could still have separate heaps though.
13:12
@R.MartinhoFernandes you could also use a proper pooling memory manager instead of GC
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Redesigning phone OS's [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [kbok-still-graduated] [no-helpdesk]
@BartekBanachewicz That's handwaving.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it just... pops out.
You could also just not have phones, all problems go away
(You could use "something that works" instead of X)
@BartekBanachewicz Why didn't you qualify "GC" with "proper" too?
13:13
except that "something" is a well documented tool for solving the problems we're talking about
at least you have air
I have a silly fan
@R.MartinhoFernandes whilst I agree for the design stage GCed apps tend to be easier, if there was a possibility to somehow "convert" (I know I'm daydreaming) the app through the compilation to actually use predictable memory patterns, it would effect in end-effect that would be superior in nearly every aspect
3
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Xeo
Xeo
Holy shit Chrome is already annoying me 5 minutes after I started using it for the incognito-account
I don't like RSS feeds
I wish there would be a way just using SO itself
13:15
Obviously the only reason to use GC is because you can write apps faster.
Xeo
Xeo
Asking if it should translate SO everytime I open any link on there
instead of some other email in my inbox
@BartekBanachewicz You're still missing my point.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz wat
@R.MartinhoFernandes probably.
@Xeo it takes a lot of hassle from you.
13:16
From the Android GC documentary:
> Object creation is never free.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz What hassle?
That’s interesting, considering that it’s the opposite from the normal GC mantra!
@Xeo the one appearing when writing GUI applications, for example
and in general causing problems to inexperienced (WRT MMM) developers
I would never prefer GCed language over C++11, but if I were forced to use C++03...
raii and arc aren't mmm, really.
@ScottW thanks for the picture
Xeo
Xeo
13:18
@BartekBanachewicz Define "MMM"
I know how it looks like
@ScottW you bastard
unique_ptr is GC. :v:
That dilutes the discussion.
@Xeo hm... "Well-Known Deallocation", perhaps? WKD alliterates badly :/
@BartekBanachewicz Lua?
13:20
@R.MartinhoFernandes Please remember that my usual usage pattern for Lua is hybrid apps (Lua and C++11 or Terra or Haskell or whatnot)
@ScottW Sleeping, mostly. Also, LoL.
I have the A/C on too. Ordinary fans are so last-century :)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also Lua's GC is doing miraculous things. I have no idea how it works, but it works.
@BartekBanachewicz Do you know what "never" means?
@BartekBanachewicz Erm. lol
It's just a standard incremental GC.
Nothing special.
13:22
@CatPlusPlus I thought you don't care about Lua
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think you're missing the point here.
Choosing the tools for the job.
That you never prefer a GCed language, except for some circumstances?
for the particular scenario (mobile apps)
which have a lot of constraints solvable by a lower-level language
like operating on battery, slower CPU and less memory
I could just quote you suggesting Lua as an alternative to other mobile stuffs some minutes ago.
13:24
29 degrees in here
damn
And yet are perfectly fine to write in high-level language completely.
Magic.
@CatPlusPlus IMHO they are not.
~~~high-level~~~
language wars, ahahahahah
only Java and PHP suck terribly, the rest sucks less
@R.MartinhoFernandes I merely said that Lua's GC is able to work under tight memory and CPU constraints, so perhaps other languages could also fine-tune their GCs for mobile usage
13:25
Then I guess that's why would never consider such a language.
however, pure native app would still be better than pure Lua on mobile
@TonyTheLion Don't forget the three hundred and sixty four things Zoidberg invented.
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh yea, they are terrible too. and Wide.
@TonyTheLion Hey.
13:26
Let's talk about how developing for Android sucks donkey cock.
:P
@CatPlusPlus We already did that
@CatPlusPlus I think we're running out of topics.
@R.MartinhoFernandes if I had a choice and time, perhaps, I firmly believe that native app would take less battery and in general be more efficient. C++11 speeds up developement extremely compared to C++03, for example, and thus it narrows the gap between high level languages.
Lets talk about C++
@CatPlusPlus The most impressive thing is that the Java isn't the worst part :(
13:27
@BartekBanachewicz I think we already established yesterday that you sucked at doing that.
oh gawd
@EtiennedeMartel Ow.
Also ~~native~~ app doesn't automatically mean less battery.
Most games made on mobile are native for performance reasons.
@EtiennedeMartel Considering my games are to be ran on other OSes than Windows, I don't think I ever went wrong.
@CatPlusPlus nobody said that.
(I'm not using that term ironically)
13:29
> I firmly believe that native app would take less battery and in general be more efficient
how about you quote the whole sentence?
When I check my phone for battery usage stats, it consistenly gives me "Screen" as over 50% :S
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep. :(
@R.MartinhoFernandes For me, it varies.
The start of the sentence doesn't change its meaning.
13:30
@CatPlusPlus or perhaps you just don't see the meaning.
Sometimes more if I don't use much Wi-Fi.
or choose to see it your way
either way, I know what I meant
Is there some standard library thing to determine in advance what the length of a sprintf-generated string would be?
13:30
And I honestly have no interest in explaining it to you
@jalf No.
You're shit out of luck.
@jalf Hey, wanna argue with us?
13:31
@jalf Wait, maybe. Sec.
I think there's a format specifier for that.
@EtiennedeMartel sure. You're wrong, he sucks and that's dumb
But I may be thinking of an extension.
@jalf Sounds reasonable.
Hey, guys, let's talk about how "I firmly believe that native app would take less battery and in general be more efficient" doesn't mean "that native app would take less battery".
JBL
JBL
Mmmh, lemme guess, quick text parsing/formatting. PERL I guess ?
13:31
@JBL No.
how about you fuck off?
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, it's not really a big deal
JBL
JBL
@CatPlusPlus Meh.
I mean I don't know how to say it really
JBL
JBL
13:32
What is PERL good at then.. ?
You're misinterpreting my words on purpose
JBL
JBL
That's the only thing I heard of.
@CatPlusPlus To be fair, native apps do have better potential in regards to power saving and speed.
@EtiennedeMartel It varies for me too, but between 50-70%.
13:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes ooh, that's interesting.
Google released the NDK when they realized that Java just wouldn't cut it on Android for any relatively resource intensive operation, like games.
@EtiennedeMartel it's not about being fair, it's about being an asshat and showing how funny you are by calling someone an idiot by misinterpreting his words
@BartekBanachewicz He's always like that, don't get your knickers in a twist.
@EtiennedeMartel Potential, maybe. But then full-performance thing will always take more battery, just because it's more intensive.
@EtiennedeMartel I don't want to be forced to tell him to fuck off every time.
13:34
@CatPlusPlus Yes, but it would be worse with non native.
How is it that the two Poles always have to have the same polarity and therefore repel each other?
Slower, maybe. Battery worse? I wouldn't be so sure.
@BartekBanachewicz What
@BartekBanachewicz Dude, you're both in the same country. Just find out where he lives and piss in his letterbox.
I'm reading the words you wrote.
@EtiennedeMartel like on the opposite ends of the country
13:35
ow.
@BartekBanachewicz Poland isn't that large. At least compared to Canada.
now its getting personal
@TonyTheLion It's always personal whenever Cat is involved.
yeah well I shouldn't get to his level of discussion
@EtiennedeMartel what?
it shouldn't be
13:35
@TonyTheLion I'm saying Cat likes it rough.
I just think Cat is hilarious
:laffo: I'm just not religiously attached to my tools.
@EtiennedeMartel thus we have a different scale for "fucking far"
Esp ~~native~~
13:36
@CatPlusPlus I knew I shouldn't have taken that word out.
It's a nice word.
"I'm not attached to my tools, that's why I'll bash everyone using anything else (and call them idiots for good measure)"
Now everyone's gonna whip it around like they're compensating for something.
I can use "emotionally" too.
@BartekBanachewicz If you shit on stuff I like, I'll just shrug. It's not that important, and I got better things to do. Think about that.
13:37
@BartekBanachewicz Cat always does that, why are you getting upset about it?
Rarely does he say "Oh this is good"
Also didn't call anyone an idiot. Stop making shit up.
mostly its terrible
when I become heated on OpenGL, I'm damn terrible
but when he's a damn hypocrite, it's "cat is always like that"
@BartekBanachewicz So... like you and OpenGL then
13:38
OpenGL is such a pain
@BartekBanachewicz when did I say that?
:laffo: I don't think you know what hypocrite means.
also I've never had a discussion with you about the bad or good of OpenGL
@TonyTheLion that's true and I agree I shouldn't do that
It's just I don't think such thing as a dickhead licence for Cat should ever exist.
@CatPlusPlus What the fuck does "laffo" means?
13:39
@BartekBanachewicz FWIW, the Cat knows how to let go better than you.
he's not licensed to be a dickhead
@R.MartinhoFernandes ahem
he just likes to behave as such. I thought that was already long obvious and you shouldn't take it personal
@EtiennedeMartel laughing, I guess
@EtiennedeMartel It's like "lol" only from a different part of Internet.
I like it better.
13:41
@TonyTheLion so the fact he likes to behave as such and the fact it's obvious means I should allow him to act that way?
Also what fucking way.
@CatPlusPlus I'm not sure I want to know what that part is.
@EtiennedeMartel It's SA.
I addressed a fucking sentence YOU WROTE, LITERALLY.
@BartekBanachewicz Really. He'll just say "X sucks" once or twice and give up sometime later.
13:41
@R.MartinhoFernandes Urgh.
Word by word, with no interpreting between them.
And you're getting all hurf blurf.
@BartekBanachewicz no, but you shouldn't get so upset about it. Just, let it roll over you and move on. Don't take what he says as something personally aimed at you to offend you. That's what I mean. You can have a discussion, but don't get so emotionally involved in it. I don't know if I'm making sense here.
But yeah whatever floats your goat.
@TonyTheLion to be honest, I am pretty damn sure that:
37 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Lua is the answer to everything
If it makes you feel all high and mighty.
13:42
was 100% personal.
@Xeo Apperently registrations for Cube World were up at 6AM for me, I woke up at 7
Feb 15 at 19:10, by Tony The Lion
cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.
@BartekBanachewicz No it wasn't.
@BartekBanachewicz to him maybe, but whatever, doesn't mean you have to take it personal.
I don't even.
I know it can be hard, witness my clash with jalf yesterday
13:43
@BartekBanachewicz The definition of fanboyism is when you take as personal attacks that are directed at stuff you like.
I took his insult personal too, mistake
That was me making fun of you being all LUA LUA OPENGL TERRA LUA LUA. Which is funny, and if you can't see a parallel to me/Zoidberg not shutting up about Haskell or Etienne not shutting up about fucking ponies then I don't know what to say.
I knew a guy who really liked Microsoft, and would get hurt personnally when we criticized MS.
@EtiennedeMartel oh I said that. Damn
13:44
@TonyTheLion You had more fight in you before.
Xeo
Xeo
@Borgleader I like how it has that now
Maybe except stop taking every :words: on Internet so seriously.
Xeo
Xeo
The time when it was last up
Maybe I should stop reading words on the internet.
Xeo
Xeo
Feels like it's just to mock those that missed it :>
13:45
@CatPlusPlus This. @Bartek
@CatPlusPlus Hey, ponies are different.
@Xeo Yeah T_T
fuck Lua, Haskell and the ponies.
Xeo
Xeo
Hey, Haskell is awesome!
13:45
@EtiennedeMartel You keep saying that. I thought I was trying to just not be an asshole as much.
@TonyTheLion Maybe.
hmmm
@EtiennedeMartel What kind of an answer is that?
Also I have been chosen to defend the high-level principles of programming from filthy low-level native savages.
6
@BartekBanachewicz What I'm saying is: calm down. Take a deep breath. Everything will be fine.
13:46
So there's that.
I wonder if it would be feasible to write a tool to turn my ASP.NET pages into PHP pages.
3
@CatPlusPlus hahahaha :)
@TonyTheLion cue lounge-asylum
@DeadMG That's today's best joke so far.
why?
13:46
@DeadMG done
@DeadMG Because it's funny!
@DeadMG uhm, it is feasible to use php?
@DeadMG Write a CLR in PHP.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Depends on the complexity of the pages being converted, no?
@CatPlusPlus The other way around has already been done, so how hard could it be?
13:49
I've counted to ten and backwards, took a few deep breaths, I'm calm like a fucking temple of calmness.
Xeo
Xeo
Wanna test that calmness?
Can I ask a question about Jonathan’s post? Jonathan says that operator new simply does return ptr; – but if so, where/when is the object’s constructor invoked? Who’s responsible for that?
Xeo
Xeo
@KonradRudolph operator new != new operator
operator new is malloc.
13:50
@Xeo Yes, that’s clear.
Xeo
Xeo
Then where's the question?
Placement new calls the ctor.
placement-new invokes an object’s constructor
Xeo
Xeo
operator new gets memory, new operator constructs
Isnt it the other way around?
13:50
@KonradRudolph compiler invokes operator new and then ctor
So new T is T* x = operator new(sizeof(T)); new (x) T(...);
Xeo
Xeo
@Borgleader no
okay, so placement-new internally invokes operator new(…)?
@KonradRudolph No.
13:51
@CatPlusPlus and try-catch block
Placement-new doesn't allocate.
@CatPlusPlus Yes, but I’m not concerned with new T, I’m concerned with new (x) T(…).
It wouldn't be very placement otherwise.
@CatPlusPlus Yes, of course. You guys confused me. :p
I always thought operator new was the one you could was the class one and new operator was the global one
13:52
Oh gosh waht a fucking mess.
All new operator new.
Xeo
Xeo
@KonradRudolph new (args...) T calls operator new(size, args...), and then constructs the object at the pointer returned from operator new
@CatPlusPlus So, sorry, my question wasn’t very clear. I meant specifically what operator new(std::size_t, void*) does.

operator new operator new operator

3 mins ago, 2 minutes total – 23 messages, 6 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 4 secs ago by R. Martinho Fernandes

Anyway I wanted to share a thing I've learned about today. Apparently some funky guys implemented nearly full Desktop GL spec on top of ES. That way features normally reserved for DT were usable on constrained environments (they automatically use extensions if available, and kept the stuff high-perf i.e. skipped features that simply require GPU support)
13:53
@Xeo Okay, that was my question. Thanks.
Xeo
Xeo
@KonradRudolph Nothing
turn your music up YYYYYYEEEEEEAHHHH
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is that about operator new?
@KonradRudolph returns 2nd argument
Xeo
Xeo
No, it's about the new operator
13:54
@BartekBanachewicz That must have been painful to do.
@EtiennedeMartel Not gonna answer that.
also placement new is not a part of core language, right?
@EtiennedeMartel from what I've heard it's a pretty large beast.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So it's about malloc then.
@BartekBanachewicz Typical.
Okay, next question then. Why does C++ not have any direct syntax of invoking an object constructor, and needs to go via the indirection of placement-new instead (which potentially also does something else, since it can be overloaded)
13:55
@KonradRudolph because C++ sucks
@KonradRudolph Because it doesn't need it?
Xeo
Xeo
Placement new is the direct syntax.
@Xeo nope
@KonradRudolph You can't overload replace the default placement new.
ah, ok
I thought if you provided a type-specific overload, that would be used instead when calling placement-new
13:57
@EtiennedeMartel Ponies
is VB nice to program in?
@TonyTheLion not really
....
I only used pre-NET VB though
@KonradRudolph See §18.6.1.3/1
13:58
@TonyTheLion No.
@KonradRudolph Oh, wait. That.
On error resume next
@TonyTheLion I used to think so
If you use ::new(...) T, which you should, it gets looked up in the global scope, not class scope. That one can't be overriden.
13:58
@CatPlusPlus Straw man. That’s not modern VB
> used to
someone claims that C# is worse to code in than VB
@KonradRudolph Modern VB is VB.NET and the only reason to use it is migrating from old crappy VB code.
I think I'm dying
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus On VB resume next
Also it's funny, who cares.
13:59
� the bane of my existence
I wrote in VB.NET, and blergh
@CatPlusPlus Nah, nonsense. I largely prefer its syntax to C#
I didn't like writing End If
and blah As String

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