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00:25
Come on now. 24 hours was concerning the time it took the good Dr Wickham to answer a simple question.
 
8 hours later…
08:34
@coatless you can't write the design philosophy now after the work is done without it being a description of what was done rather than a philosophy that drove the work. To me it seems the work and the design and the philosophy have just sort of emerged together.
 
1 hour later…
09:43
@RomanLuštrik How do you do that? In Windows 10 there is no way to not update. I've tried long and hard, including with registry hacks, and each time they manage to circumvent that anyway. Yes, I know I shold switch to Linux.
 
3 hours later…
12:29
@Spacedman I think it is fair to say that the design principles evolved organically
that doesn't mean they haven't converged towards a design philosophy
@BenBolker If you have time and are so inclined, could you chime in there? It goes beyond my understanding of mixed models.
12:47
Four "mercy kill" votes on Rcpp noob user question: stackoverflow.com/questions/48084957/…
 
1 hour later…
13:48
Second the suggestion of @coatless. @hadley : It would be very nice to have something more formal to place the tidyverse in the Rverse for my students. I finished another course where a few R teachers came to get up to date with tidyverse data preparation, but I had to answer quite a few questions regarding underlying philosophy with "I don't really know. This is how I interpreted it." Which is fine ofcourse, but not the strongest answer I could give.
 
3 hours later…
16:26
@JorisMeys The underlying philosophy is basically down to this man anyway: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_F._Codd
@JorisMeys "Go to your compsci school and take some database classes" is possibly the correct response....
@Spacedman I am sure nobody else ever used rectangular data before. Or maybe they hadn't washed their hands, or flossed. Surely something was amiss.
@Spacedman That's what I don't know. And people teaching R at our university generally also know about databases. We understand piping too. I have read r4ds.had.co.nz/introduction.html and use the general ideas expressed there as a general framework to give my courses a bit of structure. I do this because I reckon that book gives at least an idea about the general philosophy of tidyverse, even though it skips over huge parts of that tidyverse.
17:16
My personal view is that the tidyverse builds on three main ideas in R, i.e. data frames, datawise scoping, and the idea that workflow is more important than performance. It adds to these consistent functional composition that is amenable to pipeline interfaces. None of those things are inventions of the tidyverse and I don't think anyone claimed authorship for those ideas.
 
3 hours later…
19:49
@lionel what's "datawise scoping"? Using bare column names like mtcars %>% filter(cy1=4)?
@Spacedman yes
I wouldn't mind that so much if it scoped it a bit tighter to not fall for bugs like that then.
oh hang on lemme fix that
@Spacedman Is that a joke on the typo in cy1?
I'm not sure what you mean. With tidy eval you can unquote stuff to be explicit that you want something from the environment rather than from the data.
oh, I mean:
yeah, typo, sorry: mtcars %>% filter(cy1==4)
19:54
that would return an "object not found" error unless cy1 is defined in the environment, what is the issue?
So how can I do the equiv of: cyl=2 ; mtcars[mtcars$cyl==cyl,]
ah that would be filter(mtcars, cyl == !!cyl)
its a typo. and typoes make bugs.
sorry, just trying to follow :)
But not: filter(mtcars, !!cyl == cyl)?
Does tidyverse implye A==B =/=> B==A?
19:57
that would work as well. You need the dev version of rlang to get the right operator precedence for !! though (it now has precedence of unary + or -)
this is just computed using the normal R rules. When you unquote cyl on the LHS and cyl is defined as a scalar you get that scalar in the LHS
The normal R rules are that !! negates twice. Why define that operator when the UQ function makes it more obvious?
Sorry, but !! like this makes me throw up a little.
because (a) unquoting changes the semantics of evaluation in a peculiar way and the functional form is misleading about the semantics. Even lisp has symbolic syntax for unquoting even though the language is generally averse to it. (b) we don't have any control over the R parser so we have to make do with existing operators. (c) double negation is not important to preserve because its semantics is close to code obfuscation
But whatever. I'll !use it.
I like !! because it conveys execution (cf script headers) and warning (that evaluation semantics are changing). It looks a bit noisy on purpose so is best described as "syntactic pepper" rather than sugar
Can you explain a bit how a function called "UQ" which does what you call "unquoting" is "misleading" more than two symbols that already have a meaning in R that's been there since S?
20:13
Because it has a functional form and it is not a function call. This is even more confusing because we have allowed namespaced-prefix like rlang::UQ() and given a visible definition to UQ() in the rlang namespace. For all these reasons the preferred functional form is now `` !!() `` which is consistent with how operators are parsed in R
(this was supposed to be !!() with !! wrapped in backticks)
cyl=4;filter(mtcars, !!(cyl) == cyl) still doesn't work for me and my non-dev rlang though. fix is filter(mtcars, (!!(cyl)) == cyl) to force the evaluation precedence. But sheesh.
filter(mtcars, UQ(cyl) == cyl) works though even with my antediluvian rlang.
with the original ! precedence you need to wrap on the outside: (!! cyl) == cyl, otherwise ! captures the RHS
because operators, yes.
Meanwhile I've typed mtcars[,mtcars$cyl==cyl] and its worked fine for the past 20 years. Okay, I get it now. Home time.
2
meanwhile countless R users enjoy base::subset() because they don't like being explicit about where to find data
bloody users
better off without them
?subset at least has "This is a convenience function intended for use interactively"
20:20
yup but with tidy eval this no longer has to be the case that datawise scoping is only for convenience because it gives you the tools to be explicit when it matters
also quosures solve corner case bugs
@Spacedman Irrelevant that it worked. It's not tidy enough....
For me cyl <- 4; mtcars[ mtcars$cyl==cyl, ] worked, but I too have misplaced that comma at times...
I have to say the use !! rankles me as well. UQ seems much better. I get that UQ is not actually a function in the traditional sense, but that feels a lot more subtle than the change of the !, especially since you can think of UQ as being a function from a layman's perspective and still get the semantics right.
20:48
you don't like it because it goes against double negation, or because you don't like operators in general, or just because you don't like double bang in particular?
21:06
@lionel I don't like it because it takes over the semantics of the negation operator, and I find that more bothersome than the "untruth" in UQ() being a function call (though note obviously ! is a function too in R).
I guess you could argue that !! is as different from ! as :: is from :, but having used !! a lot as a coercion mechanism it doesn't feel the same.
ah I can understand how it annoys people that use !! for coercing to a logical
but otherwise the different semantics depending on number of char is like = vs == or even === in some languages. When you're used to it, it becomes natural
got to go, have a good weekend
Yeah, it just so happens that in R !! has an existing meaning. Have a good weekend.
22:08
@BrodieG you are using !! as a standard way to coerce from numeric to logical?
@DirkEddelbuettel you continue to mischaracterise my motivations for developing filter
I have to assume it is deliberate because you know that (e.g.) subset() will not work with a remote database table, and there is no easy way in base R to make it work on group-by-group
dplyr::filter() does not take away from subset() - subset() still works and you can still use it if you want. subset() didn't take away from [, it still works and you can still use it if you want
You are completely free to write R code in the same way as you did 20 years ago.
I don't understand your motivation to put down new approaches that have different tradeoffs.
22:45
@hadley I'm not going to claim it's standard, but it is perfectly permissible and so much less typing than as.logical(x) that it's hard to go back once you've gotten used to it.
I might not do it in a packaged function, but interactively, sure.
22:58
More to the point, it has existing semantics and I would be personally reluctant to change them. But as you've pointed out many times, no one is forcing me to use !! over UQ.
Although now that I think about it, I would have to give up using !! in the context of any rlang processed expression.... I guess no one is forcing me to use rlang =).
23:17
@JorisMeys I had W7, and W10 for the last year or so. I don't remember what I did, but I don't recall windows ever updating.

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