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4:55 AM
Introducing.... `assignr` (https://github.com/coatless/assignr)! Create an HW assignment and solutions within _one_ rmarkdown document and then split it into a student and instructor facing document. Provide students both the rendered file + source. Example: https://media.giphy.com/media/l2QEaOm8vqHYG2aNG/giphy.gif
Joint work with David Dalpiaz (https://daviddalpiaz.com/). Thoughts folks?
 
5:06 AM
@coatless Thanks - will take a look. In the past I have cooked my own quick & dirty solution to this, but this looks much better.
 
@coatless - I like the concept. Not just limited to homework either ; for example producing an abstract/summary and also a full report
 
This is designed for easy of use with those hosting course webpages with GitHub Pages (e.g. set output dir: docs/hw/, then hwXX/hwXX-assign/ and hwXX/hwXX-soln/ are automatically populated. Select what should be pushed et cetera.)
@SymbolixAU The thought did cross my mind. We'll have to greatly extend the present implementation though. Not sure if we have time for that right now.
 
no rush :)
 
 
8 hours later…
1:30 PM
We need someone to write a script to parse r-devel archives to find how often Luke screamed DO NOT DO THIS!!!. Is today a first?
 
2:16 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel Perhaps, although I admit the whole "here is a file of publicly available C functions, but only a small set of them that are peppered in Chapter 6 are part of the API" is a bit of crud. By that logic CHAR is not part of the API. If they really want to fence of the API funs, just list them in a separate section or in their own header so there is no confusion.
Maybe it's just me and I'm abusing coding practices left and right, but it seems that it's okay to use the stuff in Rinternals.h, if only because all the other code is explicitly fenced off.
I do agree that expecting memory to be free after changing the length is unreasonable.
Actually, and even that returning such modified length objects to R is probably a bad idea, but expecting people to be able to know that based on "presence in Rinternals.h but absence from Ch 6 of WRE" doesn't seem like the best setup.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:24 PM
@BrodieG You overlook or ignore an important detail. An API is a contract, and the provider (implicitly) guarantees to offer it now and in the future. Part of that deal is for the provider to 'garden off' some parts subject to change.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel except that we don't seem to get that guarantee, as some parts of the R API can be taken away without warning (like the connections API)
 
@hadley Strong disagreement. As a user of their API for 15+ years I find their management of the contract to be execptional.
I could say something about other code ;-) but then SomeoneWhoIWontName gets another aneurism.
They have a right to redefine where the line is. There are same about: data.table and Rcpp and RInside (and I presume dplyr et al) do things you "could not do today" but are grandfathered.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Will you please just kindly drop this pretence
@DirkEddelbuettel You are clearly biased then if that's your opinion. Taking away an API so that it breaks code is OK, but breaking changes in third party packages is not? Hmm.
 
^s/execptional/exceptional/ above. I should really use my phone as the 'smart' keyboards are more forgiving to my crappy typing
And the SO editing window is idiotically short.
@hadley And for the narrow part of that connections header file, IIRC the reasoning (faulty or not) by BDR was that there was a public connections API. Which is not incorrect. IIRC Simon just added something much more recently.
 
3:39 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel you obviously are not aware of the issues surrounding the connections API because BDR actually went back and retrospectively edited the news file announcing it. That seems like bad practice to me
Who is SomeoneWhoIWontName ?
 
@DirkEddelbuettel My problem isn't with the contract, my problem is with how loosely it is defined. Finding the intersection between 'Rinternals.h' and 'WRE' is non trivial, particularly b/c it isn't clear whether it is WRE Ch 6., or all of WRE. Why can't there just be a list of functions someplace that are clearly labeled as API?
 
@hadley I am aware of that. But I am also aware that there was no user of the connections API on CRAN. We all wanted one for a decade (ie Jeff Ryan for ibrokers and other package). So this is moot.
 
Additionally, the documentation states it is okay to use stuff in Rinternals.h, but just be prepared to have it change on you without notice. This is different to 'DO NOT DO THIS'.
 
In any event it is somewhat silly that we waste time debating specifics when I came here for a generality: when is the last time Luke yelled at someone DON'T DO THIS ?
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Booooring ;).
 
3:47 PM
@BrodieG Different problem. Communicating change is done so poorly by both R Core and CRAN that I tried to reply algotithmically (ie CRAN Policy Watch bot). We'd need the same for diffs to WRE and whatnot.
I told them many times that eg Debian Policy is numbered (ie a.b.c, as usual) and each change gets a top-level summary. If only we had that here.
@hadley Cute
 
4:03 PM
@hadley I'm hoping someone explains this room's nicknames to me at some point so I can make, like, a key or FAQ or something.
3
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I'm talking about something simpler than that. For example, is the LENGTH macro part of the API? It is referenced in Rinternals.h, and shows up in section 5.11 of WRE but not chapter 6, so maybe yes? But what about XLENGTH? That one doesn't show up in WRE at all, so it's not part of the API? I just don't know.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel that's not correct as both Gabor and Jim had packages that use the API which now have to be rewritten
 
@hadley The point is that most people (apparently apart from you) would not claim that connections was part of the API.
With possible exceptions for 15-year old stuff like Rserve. That may be gray zone.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Huh? This is nothing to do with me - these were packages that Jim and Gabor wrote using what was previously considered to be a public API. I'm not sure why you're defending BDR's behaviour here
 
Ie at the R/Parallel/HPC meeting at in Palo Alto (two or three years ago) "we all" (incl several R Core members) discussed adding one which was filed "really should do this".
 
@hadley Was it previously explicitly documented in WRE Ch 6? Or at least some other part of WRE? Just curious.
 
@BrodieG the very bottom of chapter 6 mentions "Facilities for defining custom connection implementations are provided in R_ext/Connections.h, but make sure you consult the file before use."
 
@BrodieG I think it generally was not part of the API (circa 10 years ago). The maybe 5 years ago someone (possibly BDR) added something, later realized it was a mistake, withdrew it.
 
@BrodieG so yes? (at least as much as anything is documented there)
 
So Hadley has a (valid, but minor in the context of this discussion) point that "they too change APIs".
Of course they do. Everybody does. You have to at times.
The key point is: How do you manage it.
And I will continue to argue (or would, if I had time) that there is a, err, "difference" between how it is done by R Core and some-will-not-name-other-colllections-of-software elsewhere.
 
4:16 PM
@hadley Therein my frustration expressed above. It seems that unless the symbols were were explicitly present in WRE at some point (which maybe they were) they are not part of the "you-will-get-a-warning-if-this-changes" API. Currently the connections file makes it very clear it is not part of the API.
 
@BrodieG Precisely.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel This is a great point and I like to think of the possibilities of existing on a spectrum from VERY CONSERVATIVE (don't break anything!) to UTOPIAN (this is better! throw the old stuff out!).
 
@BrodieG github.com/wch/r-source/commit/… - that warning was only added in June this year
 
@JuliaSilge And Hadley was very upfront (and wrong ;-) about it in the useR! keynote. He told everyone to expect breakage because he places himself closer to the "utopian" side.
 
And the NEWS was retroactively edited: github.com/wch/r-source/commit/…
 
4:19 PM
Wait, is that where I got this whole utopian idea?
 
@JuliaSilge Would think so. Talk was taped IIRC.
 
@JuliaSilge yup
 
@hadley I'll have to check WRE as well to see if that was changed, but even if the warning wasn't in that file, as per WRE as it stands today the connections are not part of the "you-will-get-a-warning-if-this-changes" API because they are not documented in WRE (although they are referenced).
 
@hadley HAHA I don't think I was even THERE.
 
@BrodieG you are slicing hairs very finely. R-core provided an API that was mentioned in the news and was ok on CRAN for several years. Then they took it away without any warning.
@JuliaSilge I used the language in quite a few other places because it seems to help people understand my motivations
 
4:22 PM
And to close a circle: I have strictly no problem with declaring something as 'utopian'. As author, he obviously has every right to do so. My problem is when @drob and HeIWontName and others are insisting that tidyerse, which we just said is utopian and subject to possible frequent and severe change, is better for initial teaching. I just don't think so. I would rather teach things that last. But maybe that is just me.
 
@JuliaSilge although now it's used to imply that I make breaking changes frivolously, which is not true (I say as checking the 600th revdep for stringr)
 
I think the fact that there are only a few instances of contention about an API change is decent evidence that the core R API is "stable".
Whether it's well-defined: if it's in the header files listed in WRE, it's part of the API. If you want better documentation of it, go ahead and make it. Then show it to R core.
 
@hadley Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with how it is done. It's just that a strict reading of WRE would make it seem like that was okay as per WRE, and that the functions were mislabled as "API". Certainly you could argue that mistake should cause them to become part of the "API-that-wont'-change-wo-warning", or a at a minimum, that things would be changed more gracefully.
I just wish it was easy to tell what is part of the "API-that-wont-change-without-warning".
 
@BrodieG We all agree that we would like a pony called clearer communication from R Core.
2
 
@JoshuaUlrich That's not true. It has to be in the header file and it has to be documented in WRE, maybe in chapter 6 only, or in the entirety, that part is unclear.
 
4:27 PM
@BrodieG right, it was very bad form to do it without warning, knowing you will break packages, and not communicating that publicly.
 
@JoshuaUlrich In other words, the API is a subset of the header files.
 
@BrodieG Agreed, which is why I said it has to be one of the listed header files. Rinternals.h contains an explicit warning about mostly containing non-API functionality.
Added 3 years ago...
There's another 12-year-old comment ~200 lines down that says intended for internal use...
 
@JoshuaUlrich the "mostly" is critical. The key problem is that there is no authoritative source of truth
 
I would agree that whatever's part of the public API in Rinternals.h is not clear.
 
4:44 PM
@JoshuaUlrich and surely it is primarily the responsibility of R core to improve it? It seems hard for an outsider to do so since we don't know what is and isn't actually part of the API
 
They have no responsibility, per the license.
Would it be good for them to do so? Sure.
Would it be easier if someone else did the legwork, and they just needed to approve? Yes.
 
@JoshuaUlrich I don't understand the relevance of the license. Maybe you thought I was implying a legal responsibility? I was implying a moral responsibility.
 
Sorry, but I don't feel morally responsible to do anything to something I've worked on without pay and given to people for free. So I'm not comfortable suggesting anyone else has such responsibility.
Giving someone a gift does not imply responsibility for future gifts in my mind.
Similarly, giving someone a flawed gift doesn't imply responsibility to fix it.
 
@JoshuaUlrich hmmm, that philosophy doesn't resonate with me. If I give someone a puppy, I have some moral obligation to make sure it's cared for
 
4:59 PM
@hadley So the prime purveyor of utopian interfaces is unhappy with an upstream source that is not conservative enough for his liking. Ok.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel you are mistaking my intent
 
@hadley so you would pay for food, vet bills, etc after giving someone a puppy that they asked you for?
 
@JoshuaUlrich I don't think this metaphor is going anywhere useful, but I wouldn't give someone a puppy if I they didn't think they would/could take care of it, and if I was mistaken about their ability to care for it, I would step in
@JoshuaUlrich I don't want to imply that R-core is solely and utterly responsible for the quality of R documentation. In general, I don't think that sort of attitude is useful for open source
@JoshuaUlrich but equally, I don't think the opposing attitude of "I created it for me and if you don't like it you can $#%# off" is terribly useful either. We want a happy medium 😀
 
@hadley That's the contract. A transaction between two sides who are engaging in it because they both benefit.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Yes, I'm not very interested in moral arguments about maintaining open source projects (right, wrong, etc) but I am extremely willing to argue for healthy community standards and norms that are in the interest of the community itself.
 
5:07 PM
@hadley I agree with that sentiment, but agree it's a poor metaphor. R core shouldn't (and can't) decide who uses R. I don't think the "for me and I'm letting you use it" is a good model, but "moral responsibility" for being a good open source maintainer is not something I think anyone has.
 
@JuliaSilge yes, that's a much better framing
 
And R is where it is despite some members having that model I don't prefer.
 
Welcome, @lionel. I just toggled your write bit responding to your request to flip it.
 
thanks
 
@JuliaSilge I don't like that I have a responsibility to "the community" if I share something and it happens to get popular. I'm very interested in building and supporting that with my projects, but I don't expect others to feel the same.
 
5:11 PM
@JuliaSilge That may be a discussion about horizontal norms within a community, and is orthogonal to what I was talking about as vertical exchange between providers and users.
 
And you're always free to fork and move on. Go build what you want and see who joins you.
4
 
@JoshuaUlrich I don't think Julia is arguing that you have a responsibility, it's more like you if you want to have a healthy community that gives back, you are more likely to get what you want by doing certain actions
2
 
Yup. As I will from this discussion. Gotta fix a change in API forced upon me (at work ... brandnew library).
 
@DirkEddelbuettel it seems weird to frame R-core as a "provider" that is not part of the community
 
@hadley Yuuuuuuuuuuup
 
5:18 PM
@hadley Like not breaking your interfaces? ;-)
 
@hadley sure, and I agree. I think the issue is that you, @JuliaSilge, and others have more of a preference for community-building than R Core. I doubt I'd agree with any language stronger than that.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel (a) I don't break interfaces as often as you make out I do (especially in the last year or two) (b) the tidyverse community seems pretty healthy IMO
 
@hadley Everything is perfect in the best of worlds then. Good.
Now who is going to tell me how often Luke shouted at people accessing fenced of API points.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel If you scrape it, I'll do it. I don't have time to do the scraping part right now.
Actually, I think Dave has some code somewhere where he scraped the mailing lists... Let me check.
 
@hadley He means Gavin
 
5:28 PM
@JuliaSilge IIRC, the archives are just tarballs of text files... Been awhile since I played with that though.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Sorry, can't let it go, part of my beef is that those macros are not even fenced off, they are part of the "public but can change at any moment with no notice" set, at least as far as I can tell (i.e. in Rinternals.h, but not in WRE).
 
@BrodieG btw, I see what you mean about the clarity. The 4 types of things in the installed headers is as clear as mud.
 
@BrodieG See starred comment about pony. Also, I am not one of the ones who can create change there.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Ah see, you can. If you had said "... how often Luke shouted at people for using public-but-non-API entrypoints" then I'd have nothing to complain about. Well, on this topic wrt to you. I can find something else to complain about.
@JoshuaUlrich Yeah, I particularly like the super ambiguous classification of the "public" set which is neither "can be used in distributed packages" nor "Do not use these in distributed code". It's really, "you need these entry points to do anything useful, but we want to be able to break them without notice in the future".
 
@BrodieG It's not the only part of the headers that has a problem. 'nuff said.
 
5:42 PM
@BrodieG Right, and breaking stuff has generally not been the case, outside of a few instances, with the connections debacle as the worst instance of how it was handled. If it had happened more, Dirk would have complained loudly about breakage to the Rcppverse. ;-)
 
@JoshuaUlrich So if I went through the trouble of computing the intersection of the header files and WRE to compile the actual API entry points, do you think there is any chance that the powers that be would do anything with it? Or is it just a waste of my time?
 
6:02 PM
@BrodieG You'd have to ask them and get one of them on board. Remember, you may do it, but they won't pick it up unless they want to maintain it.
 
6:13 PM
How to decide if blockchain is right for your project
 
7:10 PM
@Andrie congrats on being assimilated!
 
7:56 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel and yet you feel it appropriate to belittle me in the process. You are of course entitled to your opinion. I'm also entitled to think you're wrong and that both sides [in this teach base or tidy first] are essentially arguing passed one another. But you keep on being a child...
@DavidArenburg Yup, Dirk and his continued childish attempts at bullying
 
8:30 PM
> Description: Use R as a minimal build system. This might come in handy if you are developing R packages and can not use a proper build system. Stay away if you can (use a proper build system).
We clearly don't use Stay away often enough :)
[ That was from new package fakemake ]
 

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