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12:30 AM
Ugg, does C++ have a way to iterate a macro using syntax similar to a for loop?
the closes I can think of is to use expansion of parameters but that really only works powers of 2, or maybe I'm an idiot
I should just upgrade my game and use jinja
 
 
6 hours later…
6:45 AM
Must say I have great self control on the internet. Sometimes I am very tempted to argue online. Then I remembered that even if I win, I still lower myself by even joining the argument, especially with a stranger and a lower life form.
Best strategy is forget and walk away in this case.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:40 AM
:53351967
Install Everything
It is frustrating that C++ doesn't come with batteries included. For every project I join I end up having to configure some external tool to enforce conventions, seek out common issues that the compiler doesn't warn you on, and end up writing the same Utils or writing the same shit over and over that std doesn't provide you with
 
 
3 hours later…
12:11 PM
Awesome video, I have not checked all the figures. But I did check some:
When you stack all humans on top of each other, it's roughly 9 times the diameter of the sun ~_~
Why aren't there any toilet paper with all interesting facts written on them, or free/cheap toilet paper with advertisement written on them? The later might even help to alleviate climate problem :x
 
nwp
1:00 PM
How does spending resources on printing ads on toilet paper alleviate climate problems?
 
@nwp well, their shit is now already on the toilet paper ready to be flushed. Otherwise they'd have to print specific separate flyers, transport them everywhere (by car) so they can be distributed across the whole country so that at the end people can just read them flush it or throw it away
 
nwp
What makes you think they would keep the number of ads constant?
 
My belief in humanity \s
 
nwp
Since you're in the Lounge I didn't expect to have any left.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:33 PM
@A.Smoliak But would you rather have no choice but to live with my idea of how to do that shit instead of your own? Do you think there's so much agreement and uniformity on all this that everybody needs to follow the same practices for every project, regardless of size, complexity or purpose?
 
5:00 PM
[And don't get me wrong: I'm not being sarcastic, and trying to imply there can't be any such agreement--I'm honestly not sure.]
 
@A.Smoliak some people are on the clang-ecosystem where there is a much stronger coupling between the compiler and linter
@A.Smoliak typical complaints about "batteries included" aren't the linter, they are about lack of a package manager or GUI
@A.Smoliak but I don't think there is a single convention mostly because of trade offs, for example C++ Core Guidelines at one point tried to get everybody to use "dynamic_cast" event though almost every time you know the type. The trade off is that you might catch an rare bug by using dynamic_cast. (although dynamic_cast was designed for something else)
 
6:00 PM
@Mikhail Obviously you cannot and should not enforce The One True Convention, but the fact is that you cannot configure The One True Convention into the toolchain, though I never worked with clang, only GCC and MSVC, and the package managing system is absolutely horrible.
 
@A.Smoliak so basically these are easy to configure with cmake
a more serious issue is the mismatch between clang-tidy basically using clang while normal people build with gcc
 
I recently joined a team where for many years there was no convention to speak of. If the compiler gave you an easy way to configure it, it would've happened. Right now we've gotten ReSharper and I'm almost done with configuring it, but for the most part there's no way to enforce a certain standard with compiler errors.
 
The underlying issue is that its really hard to lint C++, the compilers and linters would regularly crash until around 2015
 
With modules I think it will return
My compiler already is starting to crash
 
Also you noticed that ReSharper is a commercial product (with ~100 developers for C++), so they obviously can't upstream everything :-)
 
6:04 PM
I cannot blame them
External tools are always that, external
 
I estimate that there are about as many people working on the 2 JetBrains C++ lexers as there are people working on clang
 
Another issue is use-after-move
Compiler doesn't spot it
And usually not even clang-tidy
and BTW resharper often uses external tools like clang-tidy
 
well clang-tidy needs to be configured
but if you're team is doing a lot of user after move bug it hints that they are writing code that is too complicated
 
it does have the ability to spot it but I had some scenarios where it didn't
 
in the sense that they shouldn't really be thinking about ownership at the call site
this is actually a novice C++ issue :-)
 
6:11 PM
my team didn't even know move semantics more or less before I arrived so it's good
yeah but sometimes when you construct a class you want to give it ownership of some hard to build object like string or avoid any copies by giving it a shared_ptr
 
in summary, C++ has been good for your job :-)
 
very few people understand it even I don't really
 
$$$
or bugs
 
The only people that understand C++ well are from the internet and that's it
 
or getting $$$ for fixing bugs you made
thats the real hi-iq position
@A.Smoliak yeah also true
 
6:13 PM
I don't think knowing C++ sells so well.. Usually people who pay you are the ones who don't understand it :(
I really liked how Rust tries to find as many issues in compile time, and their package managing system seems really simple to use, and there's built in unit testing and fuzz testing and all that jazz
You could say that C++ can also have it, but it requires a huge amount of training to reach the same level
Rust comes in batteries included, and takes far less training to make similar software. I think the fact that C++ has to be backwards compatible with C and previous versions is really bogging it down..
Then again, I didn't use Rust at all, and I'm sure every language has it's flaws.. I just know happen to know a lot of flaws from C++
 
I've worked with a few Rust-> C++ people. Basically their productivity improves because they don't need to fight the borrow checker and you can do more meta programing in C++. But it takes a few weeks for them to get used to the tooling.
Tooling is also organization specific for example Google has a bunch of custom build systems, coding style, and bullshit culture. But Google is big. So C++ can't break free from them.
 
Google does what is good for Google
 
No large US companies do whats good for their individual contributors, manager, and ceos
so you get stuff thats a massive waste of time but looks fun on somebodies resume
 
Yeah but most big projects have their own build systems
The wheel is re-invented every time
How many times have you seen or written some stupid StringUtils class that does things that std::string doesn't give you? or outright use some other string..
 
@A.Smoliak i've had to write a constexpr string class, this more of a deficiency in the std::library
 
6:21 PM
Never heard of Stadia before
 
thousands of people
work on it
absolutely nutts
 
C++20 has contexpr string no?
 
not implemented
 
It's been almost a year since the standard was released
how long does it take usually?
 
there is actually a slow rolling discussion on this channels about some issues with constexpr strings including for example, how these objects look across translation units
@A.Smoliak depends on the difficulty of the feature, but years is not unreasonable, especially as 3 compilers (gcc,msvc,clang) need to implement it
 
6:23 PM
I'm still waiting for Modules not to crash
That's the big thing on my wishlist
I think nothing else matters more because while you can make your own super_string you can't make modules
 
well I'm working on a fairly large C++ project and I've kept build times at around 1 minute by using unity builds
 
Combine all translation units into one?
 
yes
so for example, easy in cmake
 
How does that end up saving time?
You cannot compile in parallel
 
for a clean rebuild
it saves total work, which usually saves time
 
6:26 PM
So unity rebuild is better than a regular rebuild?
 
in my experience it was 5x faster
but also kept our code cleaner etc
 
I should give it a try then
 
less brain cells dedicated to managing includes, pimpl etc
but some people enjoy managing c++ builds and PIMPL
and those people suck :-)
 
i would never complicate code just for compile time
unless of course it's making everything header only
 
you ever used PIMPL?
 
6:28 PM
No I did see some examples of it
 
actually most people would complicate code for compile times
 
You have another complication
code's complicated enough as it is
it's always complicated, especially for those who are reading it the first time
I know that if I end up throwing more cores at the problem it will go away
Throwing more manpower at it is really stupid
The main reason why I really want modules is that it allows you to manage what comes in and what comes out much cleaner, and you can make single file source and not .h and .cpp
compile times are nice as well, but really (more cores)
Often times I'm forced to break the SRP because I don't want 6 pairs of files each 50 lines
 
that sounds like making something more complicated because you need to consider the "modularization" of the code
 
Well I'm sure some more clever designs will pop up, but the easiest thing to do is convert each class to a module and then move from there
 
thats a trap
you can infinitely compartmentalize stuff
 
6:35 PM
It's a balancing act like everything
 
spending too much time on abstraction is one of the biggest issues with C++
 
You can make one huge class, or you can make 1000 smaller ones.. somewhere in the middle is good
 
no classes
:-)
 
?
That's kind of a selling factor for C++.. classes
 
Yeah I was kinda joking, but I don't think compartmentalization for the sake of compartmentalization is good
 
6:38 PM
Of course not, the whole point is to make it readable
 
basically there is this pathological senario where people organize working code. Modules makes this especially appealing because it supposedly increases compile time at the expense of code maintaince.
 
How would it make it harder to maintain modules?
 
anyways I've worked with many smart people who would rather change a function argument rather than change the world. Don't be one of them.
@A.Smoliak because you need to view everything in the context of "how does it fit into this module"
well I need to go eat a sandwitch
peace
 
sandwich*
I'm sorry
 
btw modules work great when its not your code because of the caching, for example in the stl
 
6:41 PM
yeah but it isn't standard
 
6:58 PM
This chatroom is like IRC except a lot less toxic
2
 
6 hours ago, by nwp
Since you're in the Lounge I didn't expect to have any left.
any = any trust in humanity
 
7:11 PM
SO has made me addicted to reputation, gimme that gratification!
 
7:33 PM
Wow, activity, in this chatroom?
@A.Smoliak you're just years late to the party :D
 
🤯
Nah, not really. Just a long conversation it seems
 
A long conversation still counts as activity in my book
But I say "book" so I'm probably old ^^'
 
Guess we take those ¯_(ツ)_/¯
@Morwenn Boomers don't make "boomer jokes", do they? 🤔
 
Time to make it cringe and say "in my ebook"
@Lapys I don't know, I'd have to ask them
 
@Morwenn booooooo! (lol) 👎🏾
 
7:36 PM
The privilege of getting old is that you get to misuse recent expressions and make them cringe
Bonus points if you're a high school teacher
 
Oof. Can't think of any old expressions currently 😅
 
bloody hell, I'm sure you can
Old expression are Just. So. Bad. I love them!
 
"Swipe right off my lawn!" 👴🏾
you're right.. it is cringe
 
Oh wow, I wasn't thinking of fossil expressions
 
"Ok doomer"
(think 'll stop now, lol)
 
7:40 PM
I could mention expressions from the early 2000s or late 90s, but they're all in French -_-
 
Asta la vista, hombre Francais! sombre 🇪🇸
 
All those adults talking about "oh, so you play... rock metal, right?"
 
Reminds of that "how do you do, fellow kids?" meme 🙂
 
he, right
 
8:10 PM
 
8:28 PM
I got broads in Atlanta
Goin' out like Montana
They be askin' 'round town who be clappin' shit
 

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